it's good to look in the mirror and understand the material outcomes of voter behavior
I have problems with people who abstained. The hard thing is, how do you change voter behavior?
"pro Gaza"? You mean anti genocide? I love how he reduces it to a silly preference politics when in fact it was one of turning points in western history, exposing its subconscious ethnic supremacy that's deeply rooted in colonialism.
No wonder Democrats keep losing.
The hard thing is, how do you change voter behavior?
Give them something to vote for. You can write articles of many paragraphs to analyze the course of the election, but in the end it boils down to this: The DNC pissed off too many of their voters and offered nothing in return.
Exactly this! You can't just "lesser of two evils" your way through life as you slide towards hell. "Lesser of two evils" isn't a choice, it's a hostage situation.
I had some vote blue no matter who nitwit yelling at me the other day about this. i asked them what are we supposed to do when 2028 is Mitt Romney (D) vs Trump (R). They said you vote Romney.
People who voter shame others when both parties have crossed their personal morals are the reason the Democats don’t ever run on anything substative. They have forgotten they have to earn votes. They’re not owed.
And they have forgotten that when they lose, real people suffer deeply for it. The democrats sin of apathy is often worse than the republican sin of cruelty. At least the republicans are honest about how they want to screw over the country.
The lesser of the two evils didn't go after the bigger evil, offered nothing, said the economy was doing great as people suffered higher rent and groceries, and then wondered why people listened to the lying devil saying that they would fix their problems.
They don't want to offer solutions, they want votes.
Yeah. No matter how I look at it, this seems to be the only real solution that would have helped.
Give them something to vote for.
This. We saw the energy and joy when Biden dropped out, and it was reflected by Harris almost matching Obama’s small donor numbers. Hope. Change. They were simple campaign slogans, but people coming out of the Bush era wanted to believe, and had a candidate to believe in.
It’s a damning indictment that my most genuine electoral engagement, in my entire adult life, was voting “Uncommitted” in the 2024 Democratic primary. That was my most enthusiastic, “I 100% support this” vote ever, because almost every other time has been against something/one, or accepting lesser. From ballot initiatives, Senate races, down to the local comptroller chair.
Contrast that to my vote for Kamala in the general afterwards. It’s so unbelievably hollow to say “our democracy is strong” when the choice is always ‘well they’re better than them’.
The DNC platform was free medicine, money out of politics, and taxing the rich.
If they could have resurrected a Unicorn live on stage and it could have magically cured cancer in the radius as thanks: people would still be shitting on them all over the internet.
I think they offered more than most people see on social media. Their messaging isn't great and I've seen a lot more left-leaning youtube channels talk about them but not outside of that.
Then again, I'm also not American so I don't know.
Lastly, the non-voters are as much to blame in my opinion. If you didn't know you should have voted, that's on you.
I think they offered more than most people see on social media.
The problem is that they made big promises in the early Harris campaign, then continuously abandoned them and watered them down until the campaign became a shadow of its former self. Equally problematic is that they continued to shift to the right and adopt policies that are unpopular with their base. I mean remember the border wall? And of course let's not ignore the elephant in the room that was Gaza.
That's sorta the problem with the Harris/Walz campaign, and why I'm thinking this was malice rather than stupidity. Their policy on their website and a lot of the early rhetoric was very progressive, which led to Harris getting the highest single day of donations and the largest number of small donations the DNC has ever seen.
After the money had poured in from all us poors, including my $20, the campaign started shifting its message further and further rightward to appeal to more and more corporate donors, all the while still asking progressives for more money. Eventually, the speeches being given stopped matching the previously posted policy platform at all, and we started to get the absolute insane shit like Obama telling black men to fall in line.
"DNC gave me nothing in return so I'll let the US slide out of democracy"
Smart. Those pissed off voters? Fuck them.
How do you change voter behavior?
You don't. If you want someone to vote for you, you need to provide something that they want. The point of democracy is not to change the people to fit what the rulers want, it's to change the rules to what the people want. If you can't do that, the people don't want you.
It’s also to appeal to candidates , which doesn’t get talked about enough in the case of Gaza
Joe and Kamala did nothing to appeal to those voters, going so far as to cancel a Palestinian speaker at the DNC who agreed to have her entire speech vetted
so why arent we pointing the finger at them?
I keep ruminating on this argument, and it gives me deeply split feelings.
On one hand I keep thinking, voters need to grow up. Voting is how the populace gets to engage in self governance, i.e. politics, and as the aphorism goes, Politics is the art of choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable. Things that are easy aren't solved by politics, and the voters need to accept that you're often not going to get what you want and in governance you often have to settle for choosing the thing you hate the least.
On the other hand, I keep thinking I'm making the classic leftist mistake of demanding everyone should do what I think is right, because I am right, and then being frustrated when my rightness isn't blindingly obvious to everyone.
Like the lady says, It's like rain on your wedding day...
Americans are impoverished and uneducated, Democrats are not, but they should be fucking smart enough to know you can't use big words or complicated ideas with poor, distrqcted, and uneducated people.
You force through policies that put money in their pockets, that tangibly improve their lives, or you piss them off even more and give them a minority to attack as a distraction from your lack of policy.
The Republicans understand this.
This is how you appeal to the impoverished and uneducated, and that will be the majority of the American voting population until a couple decades after we offer free education
Despite all the emotions in this comment section, this is still my conclusion as well.
If you can't do that, the people don't want you.
If you can't do that, it's not democracy. It's a charade to pacify to public and manufacture legitimacy for the current regime.
This push to demonize the strawman protest voters is an ongoing propaganda campaign to cause poor people to infight.
Strawman?
6.27 Million more people voted for Biden in 2020 than Harris in 2024. That's not strawmanning, those fuckers stayed home and that is exactly why we are in the current situation.
Or worse, to exacerbate racial tensions, is one possibility I fear.
Yeah. I thought this sort of shit would've been cut down after those CIA layoffs trump did or whatever, or, that's what everyone's been jokingly saying, at least. Probably it's more along the lines that social media companies keep selectively propagating this shit because they're a revolving door with those three letter agencies anyways. Saw a LOT of black liberals posting with starbucks cups and mcdonald's after the election, and talking about how they want to buy beachfront property in gaza, because the michigan vote didn't come through for Kamala. Most of those people probably weren't conforming to the boycott in the first place, and more broadly didn't give a shit at all, but still, incredibly harrowing stuff, there.
Anyways yeah I agree with the other guy, if you wanted to spurn discussion, you probably would've been better off posting some shit that's not like, immediately just blaming the protest votes? Is in better faith more generally? Probably wouldn't gain as much traction exclusively because of that, as is the case with the site, but you'd at least not be contributing to that sort of bad faith discussion as much, which I think the initial post is doing.
Well, no, because I've been asking myself the same question for a while now. And I don't have that agenda. Lol
It isn't a straw man, it is observation .
Y'know what this thread has made me realize? All the dumb memes of "the left fighting the left" are bullshit. I can respectfully debate other people on the left with me. I can change their minds about some things, they can change my mind on some things, we can come to compromises. I don't agree with the communist 100%, but I agree with them at least 70-80%, and would happily work alongside them to accomplish that 70-80%.
You know who loves infighting though? Centrists who have deluded themselves into thinking they are leftists. You can find comment after comment in this thread from right-leaning centrists, gleefully demanding that they were "right all along" and how everything is our fault for just not being as smart as them. There is no political group that loves infighting as much as them, even more than the fascists. They want to spend the next four years trying to find out all the ways they can assign blame to the left, instead of organizing and doing anything.
I can tell you as someone who lives in a deeply left state, in a very left city that there are absolutely unfathomable levels of infighting amongst the left. Almost my entire family and work are also very left.
I am basically surrounded by varying degrees of leftist people 24/7 and I have lost count of the times I have seen someone start to question the Ideological homogeneity of the left only to be "corrected" by several others around them. It's almost cult like watching people stamp out individual thinking in real time.
Anyone who dares think about something even slightly differently is either yelled at to step back in line or they are immediately cast out from the group.
I have witnessed this first hand from several old leftist friends and I have talked to other moderate lefts who have seen the same behaviors over and over.
Hell even moderates on the right love watching you guys push out people who were on your side so they can welcome them in with open arms. Nobody converts questioning leftists into full blown right wingers quite like the left can.
The left only wants your vote if your vote is exactly the same as their vote.
The right doesn't care how much you agree with them as long as you vote right.
Really funny after you remember the horrible phrase "vote blue no matter who" that the left loved to chant.
I swear y'all are your own worst enemies sometimes.
Yeah, "left-unity" has always been a red flag for me. Most of the time, when someone talks about "left-unity" they are usually either authoritarian leftists who will historically shoot you in the back, or liberals who expect you to always support them but refuse to compromise with people on their left.
Every time. I don't listen to people who call for a "left unity" as it's actual tankies wanting to kill anyone who disagrees with the new state, or it's liberals who want to replace "Bad Thing" with "Slightly Less Bad Thing with maybe a Woman"
Either way, it just replaces the problem with a new one.
hell yeah dude! im glad my post was able to set the stage for this realization :)
I have a (conspiracy) theory that those “genocide Joe” and “killer Kamala” folk are astroturfing for MAGA.
There was definitely a large amount of foreign influence pushing that narrative.
Everything I don’t like is a psyop
It’s not wrong to say that the right/outside actors made the issue more pervasive, but let’s not exonerate the “adults in the room” who decided it was better policy to unflinchingly support war criminals and a slow motion genocide, instead of defusing the wedge issue and forcing Bibi’s hand. Israel is nothing without US political support and weapons. Recognize “who’s the fucking superpower” and act like it when your client state gets out of line in a way that’ll cost you domestically. China does it with North Korea all the time when they got testy. Russia routinely interferes with domestic politics of CSTO members.
Nor should we pretend that all criticism was astroturfing. Some of us wanted to drop Biden before “we beat Medicare” made him obviously unelectable. And called it that Harris was going to lose swing states like Michigan for maintaining Biden’s posture on Israel. If team blue is all I can realistically vote for, I’m going to call out shitty policy that loses elections and kills voter enthusiasm. It’s up to you to listen and understand that we need to do better
Okay so this may come across as crazy, but myself and many other people didn't want to vote for a candidate that supported ethnic cleansing, even if they were on "our team".
And given the shitty system we have, any vote, or non-vote, that wasn't for Kamala was a vote for trump (by way of it being one less vote he needed to win). Can't walk into a chess tournament and start putting checkers on the board just because you don't like chess...gotta change the game first or you just lose and get kicked out.
Yup that is a conspiracy theory and super not cool of you.
It's mostly information warfare from the various social media. There have already been a few analyses showing that pro-Republican anti-Democrat sentiment was algorithmically pushed on tiktok, Facebook, X(obviously), Instagram, YouTube, etc. I do believe a lot of people even here on lemmy were Russian/Chinese just stoking the flames because a divided america is good for them.
The time for voting is over. It’s time for fighting now, and I don’t think “I told you so”s are helping us unite and work together right now.
Both can happen at the same time. We don’t need to love our ally to fight against a shared enemy. Especially when you feel your ally helped empower them.
Can they though? I mean to some extent maybe but I think it needs to be carefully articulated and respectful. The typical one line takedowns are just signals of tribal affiliation, they don't persuade anyone and just increase animosity between us.
I agree.
Funny how this always only applies after the election after things have gone South. Any asks to come together during the election where fighting together actually matters is met with derision and "how will we force DNC to change otherwise?"
I'm done. Dirtbag leftists have shown they are not and never will be real allies. Their naiive ideals and the sound of their own voices are more important to them than the suffering of marginalized communities in the US.
We're done with you.
I voted and did the liberal things. I’m not sure what more you want from me. If you won’t help us fight then that’s your choice but spare me the infighting please I am so over it.
Honestly, the election was three months ago, and we have bigger fish to fry right now. My default assumption now is that anyone still trying to relitigate the Gaza voters is a Russian troll trying to sew division among the left.
Haha no hate I just think it's funny you arrive at the same "Russian troll" conclusion as the people trying to relitigate the Gaza voters :P
e: i think i misunderstood your comment, retracted
Like anything, it's probably a mix. There were plenty of actual Americans on the pro-Gaza side, and there were probably some Russian trolls as well. Now, there are some actual Americans trying to vent about the election. But it would also be naive to think a fair number of them aren't Russian trolls. It's not like the utility of manipulating an adversary nation's political discourse ends after an election.
Since there's no practical benefit to relitigating this old fight, however, it makes sense to just dismiss anyone bringing it up as a Russian bot. There's nothing to be gained by reopening this old wound among the left, but there is plenty to lose.
"We offered nothing and lost to a liar who said they would get something if he came back into office. Why did we lose?"
"We said everything was going great when the public was facing hardships and being targeted by systemic and economic inequality, and the dude lied and said he'd solve it. Why did we lose?"
"The last guy was unpopular and didn't push back on Trump to get him jail. And then we said we'd do nothing different as Americans are facing homeless and their bodily autonomy being ripped away from them. How did we lose?"
"We courted Republicans who openly hate our voter base, alienated them by saying we don't need you, and Republicans are too brainwashed to vote for anyone but Republicans. Why did we lose?"
"We let the campaign be run by the same people who already lost against Trump in 2016. Why did we lose?"
Clearly, the dems need to be lying more.
No, I'm serious, they need to actually start hitting back in kind if they want to preserve even a sliver of the country. This moral high road shit sounds great but boy, does not seem to work in practice.
I started having bad feelings about the election when I was watching a progressive podcast and they all cringed when talking about Harris campaigning with Cheney, then shrugged and said "what other choice do we have?"
That is not how you energize your base.
Why energize a base when you can force the people who have to vote for you to effectively vote for the war criminals who aided in the death of the kind?
The DNC knows they have anyone who is targeted by Republican policies, so they can treat them as a safe secured voting base. They bully anyone who doesn't vote for them and then wonder why no one likes them in a national popularity contest weighed by land over people.
We need to make a parallel yet distinct figure of speech to “leopards ate my face” for this behavior. Not to lessen the meaning of fascist leopards but kind of as a contrasting representation of the successes of evil. Something like…
“I fed the hawks, never knowing they would prey on my flock!!”
Why not just "chickens coming home to roost"? I guess there's a subtle difference there...
We can now say that anyone who could and didn't vote for Harris in magastan is a genocide enabler.
But but but, how were we supposed to know? We were too busy not paying attention to anything important!!
I've been saying since the election that anyone who voted for Trump or abstained in protest is complicit in Trump's regime of terror. Trump and his staff spent months on the campaign trail telling the public exactly what they would do when they took power, showing everyone exactly who they are, and now they're doing all of it. No one has the luxury of claiming ignorance.
That's the dark secret that no one really wants to talk about. We're all genocide enablers. Every single person decided to enable genocide. You didn't vote? Genocide enabler. You voted third party? Genocide enabler. You voted for Harris? Genocide enabler. You voted for Donald Trump? Whew boy, genocide enabler and then some. No matter how you cut it the American populace has and is enabling genocide. Every single fucking one of us.
I think that's why there's so much rancor on this topic. People don't want to admit that to themselves. I enabled genocide. You enable genocide. Everyone in this thread enabled genocide. Till we all admit it acknowledge that we're not going to move forward.
Now that's a level of introspection I never thought I'd see in a thread like this.
If I had some sort of agency to precent genocide, that would be great.
Now that you got you dopamine, feel better?
Great, now it's time to stop pushing propaganda that makes poor people infight.
That’s not how logic works.
Yes it is and it’s such a good example of logic that its archetype is now a formal part of game theory in the prisoner’s dilemma. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma
Like most people... I live in a state where my "vote" literally doesn't matter at all.
It's hilarious how "adults" assume that voting actually matter and that there's a meaningful difference between the two flavors of the state.
I was up and down many threads immediately before the election straining with every fiber of my being to explain to people the variety of ways in which their democracy is actually a sham and isn't effective or reflective of popular will or sentiment.
The most I got in return was that, nah, none of that applies, because I just don't really feel like it. It's infuriating.
Every 4 years the machine churns, every 4 years people forget everything that happened the last time, forget every detail of the system, and just decide to kind of, sloganeer constantly rather than discuss critically, because that brings them some sense of control over the way things are going. It can be prefigured into their personal narrative of events, and how much they, personally, put on the line, how much they tried to change people's minds. A participation trophy for their rubber stamp, for their ticking of a certain box, while the real rulers are off in washington making the real decisions. Ultimately it's kind of fruitless, I think, or should only be viewed along the same lines as being personal slop-entertainment, or "self-improvement". Anyone who's not honest with at least that much can't really be trusted to speak on these things, I think.
It’s hilarious how people still think that something good will happen as a result of inaction. But no, all your refusal to participate said was that you are fine with the outcome either way. That you trust others to decide this for you. Refusing to choose doesn’t negate the results. Just as doing nothing won’t create something. If it helps, I can explain it in simpler terms:
• You can’t get an answer if you don’t ask the question.
\
• You won’t ever get anywhere if you don’t make plans to ever be somewhere
\
• You can’t rightfully expect any change for the better if you’re not willing to do the bare minimum it takes to make it happen.
Even simpler:
• No vote ≠ no election.
And additionally, do you not understand that saying “but I live in a red state! My vote doesn’t matter!” Only proves to everyone that things like gerrymandering are effective ways to manipulate votes? Because, congratulations… you’ve inadvertently discovered exactly why they do it!
Blue votes in red stats are FUCKING VITAL.
You know, it’s sadly funny in a very bleak way- how you all excused your poor decisions as “making a statement!” and “sending a message!” when the messages you should have been sending is that you will do WHATEVER THE FUCK IT TAKES to stop a rapist felon that laid out exactly what he intended to do to us- from taking away the rights of your brothers, sisters, and others. Even if it meant voting blue in a red state.
But you didn’t. So sit down, accept your responsibility, and if you’re fucking lucky, you’ll be given the chance to do better next time.
Democrats then: "We'll win without appealing to Arabs in Michigan or anyone who demands we stop funding Israel. Shut them out of the DNC and scold them at every turn. Who cares how they react or that they're forming PACs like 'Arabs for Trump.' We don't need their votes."
Democrats now: "We lost because you STUPID Palestine-lovers wouldn't vote for us. Your country needed your votes, Gaza needed your votes. It's actually your fault that we didn't bother appealing to you."
"We don't need you! We never needed you! Every one of you is a paid Russian actor! We will win with Chaney and Romney!"
"GOD PLEASE WE NEEDED YOU! WHY DIDN'T YOU TRUST US?! WE CHASED AFTER THE REPUBLICANS TO MAKE YOU LOVE US!"
To the DNC and right wing Dems, its always someone else's fault why their candidate failed to appeal to the voters they are trying to represent. No accountability for their failure.
Never taking responsibility and always blaming others for your failures is basically baked into conservative DNA
White-men for Kamala :'D
So basically, still in denial about how Trump and Netanyahu are going to absolutely wipe out Gaza from history now while gaslighting'ing as hard as r/conservative. The overlap with the way Trump voters handle politics is astounding.
What does any of that have to do with what I said? I'm talking about the strategic decision the Democrats made to not make concessions to the people inflamed by the genocide in Gaza. In no way did I deny that Trump is far worse than Kamala/Biden. Pointing out that Kamala/Biden made a conscious decision to not move left on this issue isn't gaslighting, not that you're even using the term correctly
Arabs on their way to watch palestine be disintegrated by trump: Yes i am the morally superior individual here why do ask?
Democracy is being dismantled as we speak. Agency by agency, loyalist by loyalist, executive order by executive order. And instead of building community, helping each other and organizing with those around you, I see people, who supposedly care about democracy, about human rights, about those they accuse; and what are they doing? They are blaming people who are powerless and desparing. Thereby further dividing the populace and making the takeover easier for the fascists in power. Be careful: You are telling on yourselves and your values. And we can see you.
Okay I'm getting sick of the whole "the dems failed us" bullshit.
WE failed. WE let this happen. WE had the choice between an obvious dictator or continued democracy.
You can shift the blame all you want but at the end of the day it was an obvious choice. You can come up with any other excuse you want. If you didn't vote for Harris you are to blame. Period. End of fucking story.
Edit: The dems should've been able to run a wet paper bag against Trump and win. The fuck is wrong with people to not see that?
While I can understand your perspective, it's one of those unfortunate cases where ideology clashes with reality.
Yes, Trump never planned on following through on actually helping people. He lied, and people bought it. And yet it's no ones fault Harris's that she decided to tell people "things won't change if you vote for me".
A nation of voters isn't made up of individuals who you can convince, it's a crowd of people following certain dynamics, just like any other large grouping of things. You can either accept that and work with this fact to steer the crowd, or you can ignore this fact and lose because you're trying to go against the flow. And in the end, the only people who had any meaningful control was Harris' campaign.
Imagine you're a shepherd, and your flock is running towards the edge of a cliff. Sure, you can plant your feet and say "they shouldn't run off the cliff", but the only end result will be losing all your sheep.
I respect your argument, but I still refute it.
There was a saying someone shared recently: Give them the third best option. Because the second best comes too late and the best never comes at all. Essentially, do not let perfect be the enemy of the good.
I agree that Kamala should have developed more of a campaign around frustrated white young men, and working class America. That was a mistake, but I also think it was an easy mistake to make when scrambling to take over from Biden’s campaign.
If we go 4 years from now, 8 years, 30 years, I think every candidate we see will be imperfect and will make mistakes. The only time we’ll ever see a perfect candidate is when they lie about their accomplishments and overstate themselves. Americans need to be able to spot those flaws themselves, and that will not change in any election cycle. I should not get into the White House by promising every working American a trillion dollars.
The dems should've been able to run a wet paper bag against Trump and win. The fuck is wrong with people to not see that?
Everyone sees it, thus our point that the Dems are to blame because they didn't fucking win. You guys trying to absolve them of their sins act like the reality of voting is that everyone will vote perfectly logically for the lesser evil when that has never been how voting works
the dems failed us
the dems should have been able to run a wet paper bag and win
sounds like identical statements to me
I share your sentiment. If you had any sort of idea, even the faintest inkling of trump, literally a corpse should have been elected, I think many of the electorate don't know anything about their politicians, and just vote a certain way "cause that's how we've always done it". The last election, elected a dictatorial fascist, and the alternative was to pinch your nose and apply pressure for Kamala to go left.
"The party cannot fail, only be failed" but unironically?
I yelled, but voted Kamala, and encouraged others to do the same. I always wanted to try and push the democrats to not be Republican lite and actually taking a meaningful, impactful stand on fucking anything besides being very passionate about not inhabiting Trump's body. I wanted to see the democrats say "you know what? Genocide is wrong, whether it's our allies doing it or not, and this is genocide" instead of "well, we're going to keep handing them bombs, but we promise to wag our fingers at them while we do it". I don't want to hear your goddamn excuses, there's always some fucking excuse why the democrats just had to spill all their spaghetti. I just wanted to do what I could to push them to show some intestinal fortitude and do the right thing, and I honestly believed (and still do believe) that that would have motivated more voters to turn out than purely relying on "less bad than him".
No, I don't regret trying to make the world I want to see; one without genocide. I do resent the democrats for insisting on doing the wrong thing, getting mad at people like me for having the absolute audacity to call them out on it, and still not having the fucking self awareness to be ashamed of doing the wrong thing.
I do resent the democrats for insisting on doing the wrong thing, getting mad at people like me for having the absolute audacity to call them out on it, and still not having the fucking self awareness to be ashamed of doing the wrong thing.
Fucking.
Thank you for sharing, genuinely. The way other conversations here have gone, many probably thought you were a Russian bot or something for yelling that you cared about human rights atrocities funded by your taxes. :(
I wish OP would add this to their post. EVERY IRL leftist I know voted Kamala even though they absolutely did not want to. My comment history is littered with we saying exactly this. I truly can't imagine the kind of person posting/saying the OP quote. Like, she lost. That's the way it's phrased for a reason. It was her and the people making decisions for her that are responsible. SHE lost. Don't get me wrong, we're all obviously worse off, but why aren't they upset at the dem establishment?! If the protest voters were "so important" (they mathematically were not) then don't you think the dems are morally responsible not just for the genocide, but then for losing just to perpetuate it? They're all like "where are the complaints now?!" Like they are too stupid to understand how pressure works on public officials and that resistance is a limited resource that needs to be rationed. Unfortunately, most actual leftist are organizing resistance efforts and don't have time to complain about dems any more because that time has passed. I'm very wary of people saying things like OP because it's such a clinically bad take it feels like trolling/propaganda. Good luck with everything.
Seems like this is more of a candidate problem than a voter problem - Joe and Kamala were very aggressive to anti-genocide voters and protestors - Gov Shapiro even wanted them arrested
Vote shaming will not get these voters to your side, but you know what will - candidates who will listen
Vote shaming will not get these voters to your side
This is beyond voter shaming, though. This is asking what the fuck were they thinking.
Emphatically correct based on everything I learn. I could never imagine changing my vote based on shaming and I don’t know why so many choose that tactic anyway, even after the thing is over.
This is why the aftermath of the election has been particularly frustrating to me - a LOT of comments are just shitting on Muslim voters and kind of acting happy that trump is so terrible - often ‘liberal’ voters.
What the heck? We have to keep the doors open and politicians have to get them through the doors
You give them something real to vote for. Give them a reason to turn out. And there's a reliable way to do that. Hard policy. Universal Healthcare. Free education. Raising wages. Stuff that actually improves people's living conditions in their daily lives.
Because believe it or not, The World's Most Powerful Military and genocide do not excite any democrats that aren't members of the DNC Services Corp.
I will never look down on someone who voted or refused to vote because of thier conscience. Obviously for this specific question, that excludes people claiming to care about gaza, but still voting for trump. There was no illusion that trump was going to do anything positive for gaza.
I will never look down on someone who voted or refused to vote because of thier conscience.
You should. They only bring about worse situations at best. Pretending to be moral when what you're doing is the opposite is pure hypocrisy.
I know plenty of supposed leftists (really these are people who spend 90% of their time criticizing liberals and calling them "shitlibs") who are relieved that Trump is in office, say that he is better than Kamala on Gaza, and believe that America's descent into fascism will spur a revolution that will save humanity.
Don't underestimate people's stupidity.
In fairness, it is possible that it takes a decent into fascismto wake the people up. Or it could be like ww2, where it gives the world a common enemy to defeat. Noone knows. So they could be right. Less probable things have happened... like trumps 1st term. Noone saw that coming 4 years before it happened. The reality is that noone knows what the result of thier actions will really be on the world stage.
I know plenty of supposed leftists (really these are people who spend 90% of their time criticizing liberals and calling them “shitlibs”)
Seems like what most "leftists" on lemmy are... It's almost like a concerted effort to make leftists, as a whole, look bad. So people associate the word with these insufferable blowhards, and not actual progressive thought and political/economic theory.
Single issue voting is a reactionary tendency. I don't think moral people are going "lets pick one issue and decide based on that". This is a person whose easily manipulated and not moral.
A moral person goes "am I doing more harm than good" and puts effort into engaging with that.
I advocated for voting for Harris, and did so when the time came. I also don't think this blame game gets us anywhere, and I'm already a little sick of talking about it.
I'm also done defending the Democratic Party as a whole. Individuals, yes, but not the party. I'm realizing through this that I have a certain reflexive need to correct misinformation about Democrats, but I'm clamping down on it.
I’m realizing through this that I have a certain reflexive need to correct misinformation about Democrats, but I’m clamping down on it.
if it's misinfo, it's misinfo, correct it lmao.
My only regret is that I have but one upvote to give this comment.
Good, good. Let the hate flow through you. Come to the left side where we want to rid ourselves of the capitalist class entirely and stop trying to negotiate with them through their puppet political parties. You are so close, I feel it in the force.
I wrote the comment below on a thread that got locked while I was writing. TL;DR: Any bonehead who thinks that every single voter is politically-engaged and fully-informed, and that 6 MILLION of them all made a rational, reasoned decision to sit out the election is dumber than they look.
Oh, well, 18 months, what a slog! /s
Look, I've spent close to 30 years now detailing that this fucking insane "lesser evil" slide-to-the-right thing that Democrats were doing was going to end in evil. (That is, fascism.) Either the Democrats themselves would become what we feared, or the greater evil would happen to win.
Guess what? I was fucking wrong. I admit it now. I didn't guess that BOTH would happen simultaneously. It was bad enough more than 20 years ago when my Senator was the only vote against the PATRIOT ACT. It got worse when Obama decided to abolish due process and the rule of law. But by 2024, Democrats were straight up aiding and abetting the biggest war crime of all. Jesus jumpin' Christ on a pogo stick, how did we get to a place where that is the lesser evil?
Y'all couldn't vote for Nader in 1996, because "he can't win." Well, guess what, bucko, we had to change course somehow. He, or a spiritual successor, had to win, or we'd get... well, look around. It was clear even back then. We had to at least try something different, other than the lesser evil every time.
As they say, the best time to change was then, and the second-best time is now. But, no, Kamala Harris couldn't change her mind on genocide to win. No, sir! We have standards of evil to maintain, you see. Meanwhile, the billionaires weren't going away. The wealth inequality wasn't shrinking. Late-stage capitalism wasn't on track to make the serfs' lives better. The climate crisis would still loom. Charismatic fools like Rogan et al. are still young. So the choice in 2024 was fascism now, or fascism later. 2032, most likely, when the partisan pendulum would predictably swing the other way. 2028, possibly.
Is it any wonder that many voters felt overwhelmed, hopeless, defeated, and declined to participate, through the fabulous power of denial? Politics is depressing, the system is big, my vote is inconsequential... Y'know, denial, that power that we've all honed through a lifetime of practice—knowing the horrors of industrial meat production and still ordering a burger, knowing the role of CO2 in the climate disaster while waiting in the car at the drive-thru window for it, knowing the causes of cardiovascular disease and still eating it?
Knowing that someday, eventually, we have to fix our political system now that radicals have found its cheat codes, but still browbeating those disengaged voters that they are the ones responsible for this calamity. Yeah. Denial.
The same denial as 30 years ago. This election has been a long time coming. A year and a half? Get outta here.
To go further on your point of the choice between fascism now or later, I can't help but feel like we fucked up by electing Biden. Considering how lackluster Biden was at actually preventing the rise of another Trump term, I seriously think the U.S. would have been better off with two back to back Trump terms. Trump would have still been unprepared for a fascist coup in 2020, and I doubt he'd have enough support to extend his term limits with the fallout of the post-COVID economic issues Biden experienced. The Republican party wouldn't have had their golden boy to run on, and Biden wouldn't stupidly consider himself Trump's kryptonite so I doubt he'd have run. Hell, maybe the Dems could have ran a legitimate primary for 2024 in that timeline.
I just can't help but feel like we already chose fascism later in 2020, and now it's here.
Truth
Ultimately yes, its the fault of the voters (and non voters) who let their emotions cloud their judgement. Thats true whether you like it or not. Especially if Gaza was your main issue; if you saw both candidates and thought Trump was better for the situation, you need to seriously look inward and consider your reasoning abilities.
That being said, the opposition party does not get off the hook so easily here. The fact that Trump could win despite everything he said is a total and utter failure. Their strategy is bad, and they refuse to acknoledge it because to do so means that they need to upend their internal heirarchy. They have buried their heads in the sand when it comes to accepting the playing field of politics right now, and quite frankly as a party they look incredibly weak.
In other words, to not acknoledge that the election was theirs to lose is also denying reality
Democrats also have a fair share of blame for refusing to work with the left, and instead siding with war criminal Dick fucking Cheney.
If they had made any effort to inspire people to vote for them they would have gotten more votes.
Honestly I'm surprised they got as many votes as they did seeing as they actively worked to alienate their vote base.
Absolutely. They NEED to embrace the left wing and populism to stay relevant.
Ultimately yes, its the fault of the voters (and non voters) who let their emotions cloud their judgement.
Just curious, why place blame on the voters? In my opinion we should be placing blame on the party / candidates. It is the parties and candidates job to ensure they are running on a winnable platform with a powerful message. Even outside of the Gaza issue Kamala did not back any popular policies and instead shifted to a very right (circa 2014/2016) platform. Particularly on taxation of billionaires, oil drilling, and healthcare for all, she walked all these policies to the right in the latter half of her campaign. There ultimately no reason to vote for her except so she would beat Trump, which makes sense for a lot of people, but I can also see many who weren't inspired to vote and just assumed she'd win.
Edit: also just saw a guy below said a very similar thing so sorry if this feels like an attack from this perspective.
Its ok its not an attack; you're good!
The reason i say that is because we are the ones that pull the trigger. The choice was shit or disaster, and disaster got chosen. For all the faults of Kamala, there are innocent people who have been deported who would still be here; federal workers who would still have jobs; palestinians who would have their home at least recognized. Its a place of privilege to be able to choose disaster when the effects of that choice are the burden of others.
I voted for Kamala not because she is progressive; I did it because I am progressive. Sometimes that means doing something you dont like to save someone else who is counting on it.
Just don't apply the same standards for Americans as you did for Russians. But remember, Ukraine did something about their corruption, and they are standing alone as the light in this world (albeit with sketchy allies such as USA and Ukraine)
We had a choice between voting in a system that allows us some power to dissent and have a voice versus... this. The frustrating thing is this situation was just as advertised in Project 25, and then some.
We did not have an ideal choice, but we still had one. Now, here we find ourselves.
When in life do you get an ideal choice?
I love it, Ive been seying how stupid dems who did not vote are. And every single time someone is coming to tell me, yadi yada. It's their conviction.
I see the german, saying, it wasn't an ideal choice. So, we got Hitler elected. What could go wrong??
I think with Trump, it's much more about the grift. So, hell rob the poor and feed the rich. But maybe I'm wrong and this time around he has lot more racist and dangerous friends with him... who know. Good luck to us.
There's also the people who had no idea there was even a fight. There were actual people who were like "wait, Biden isn't running?" on election day, some of whom just voted Trump because they recognized the name. People are fucking stupid. So between the protest votes, blind ignorance, blatant stupidity, and typical apathy we ended up with America being turned into a Christofascist nightmare.
Then there's the fact that an all out (non-nuclear) war with China over Taiwan will cripple both countries. I wonder if America will splinter, and where the lines will be drawn.
The only way to combat such ignorance is to be loud. Be vocal when you're doing good work. People follow examples, so be that.
The neat part about nation-states is that I have to deal with the consequences of most of our population being fucking idiots.
i hate the big d Democratic party. i dont like their platform, i don't like their candidates. i voted for harris in2024. the time to make political statements and form a movement is now. do you know what you are supposed to do during election season? VOTE!
Yeah, ive said exactly that countless times right before the election, criticize her all you want after the election but ffs, elect her and the average response was something along the lines of "but genocide Joe!" or just nothing .
Also, all those fuckers are gone now, you're not hearing anything about it anymore so I'm guessing that a lot of them could also have been right wing trolls just pushing people to ensure trump would be voted in
I want to believe that was a large scale, coordinated influence operation, but the truth is probably a bunch of scattered, uncoordinated young folks tring to make a statement
The democrats tried everything except for actually grappling with the subject. Now blaming the voters completely misses the point .. that the dems where supporting Israel and clearly stated they would continue the current path. Trump had the decency to lie to the constituents. And now they cope by convincing themselves it's part of his plan. The voters where duped.. but the Dems did this.. not the voters.
They were mainly upset that we don’t have a choice to not support genocide.
Which just betrays their utter ignorance of US history. Slavery and genocide built this country, of course we’re gonna support it.
I find it funny how everyone blames everyone except for the Republicans who voted for Trump.
they're a lost cause. they might learn when their welfare programs and fema aid are cut, but nothing rational that we can say will convert them.
Politics is like religion for those that voted for Trump. You can't tell them that their "god" sucks and you should follow this other "god".
So you have to go after the agnostics or the blue voters that "don't go to Church every Sunday", so to speak.
I mean on the whole, yeah, humanity is doomed. But hopefully this helps you understand.
Who isn't blaming republican voters? Do you think that people calling this shit out are incapable of holding two simultaneous thoughts?
Republicans are a lost cause due to unending brainwashing since Reagan, they are to blame more than anyone, but they can't be changed or reasoned with. You can't change them more than you force a fish to breathe air at this point.
If they had any shame it would make sense to blame them. But they're all ecstatic about all of this and do not give a fuck what anyone who disagrees with them thinks.
The genocide(and poor national level performance) was the last straw for many people who have been lifelong democrat voters. After 30+ years of seeing dems bring ferocity and strategy and boldness to primaries only to sit in office, renege and fail on many of those promises even in times when they have a supermajority majority. Then to see only a few dems actually screaming on the floors of congress. As well biden refusing to use the bully pulpit.
I don't believe any of them wanted this outcome. I do believe they felt their vote was only going to promote a regime that would continue the trend of genocide and protecting wall street over the needs of desparate citizens. Billions to kill and profit then pennies to the people.
I believe the fault lies entirely on the DNC and not the voters who saw no benefit in promoting the party over the other.
It's wrong, a dem in power is worlds better, but i understand seeing it as pointless in the moment. There is no good answer, only a less wrong one...
To answer the question, pass useful legislation and don't promote genocide. Legislation like universal healthcare, constitutional abortion(and other women's healthcare), raising minimum wage, universal pre-k, Union support, decriminalize drugs(esp. Weed), and to reverse inflation to name only just a tiny few..
TLDR: 30yrs of "lesser of two evils" kills voter motivation. Blame the party not the people.
Edit: technically not a supermajority...
This was NOT the time to do this. This election was about the end of fucking democracy in the face of fascism and these abstainers wanted to pull teenage shit and fucking ended the country as we know it.
Now Gaza is getting wiped out because these abstainers couldn't abstract what a p2025 theocracy was going to do?
People were screaming about this for months. THIS election was an existential fight right now at home, and they chose to pull idealist teenage shit.
I mean i agree and being angry is justified, just the time to do something for the dems was twice in the last couple decades when they had supermajorities...
Im pissed off too, i'm very likely losing my job because of all this federal fund fuckery. I'm stressed out and having pretty severe executive disorder over it. Work is on fire and i have to find a new job now. In terrified that the US will engage in an imperialist expansion again. That we'll have the night of long knives 2, or Auschwitz 2 or what the fuck other Nazi bullshit you want to reference.
I'm still not blaming the people who didn't vote. I'm blaming the people who did, the ones who voted FOR this. I'm blaming trump and elon and their cronies. I'm past disappointment in the Democratic party and i lay the choice of people not to vote at their feet.
Bro, the Democratic party has not had a supermajority since 1979 - which by the way they did quite a lot with, including the last amendment to the constitution.
You're mad at a reality that doesn't exist.
I still can blame the voters who chose the more wrong option, either explicitly or implicitly through non voting. More than one can be blamed.
Sure. But if your brothers being killed either way why would you give a fuck?
For ref, i voted Harris...
I do believe they felt their vote was only going to promote a regime that would continue the trend of genocide and protecting wall street over the needs of desparate citizens. Billions to kill and profit then pennies to the people.
The final boss of straw men...
Everyone is so focused on the genocide angle, but governments left and right throughout the world who were in power during the post COVID inflation spike got the boot. Most economist with froth at the mouth about "deflationary spirals" wherein people who have been waiting 15 years to buy a new pair of pants will wait a couple more years to buy it when prices start going down and thus cause an economic downturn. However, the general public believed that "getting inflation under control" meant going back to the original prices, something the (independent of Biden) federal reserve would never let happen because deflation = bad. Once the inflation spike occurred, Biden could have had 0% inflation from Nov 2022 to the election, and people still would have voted him out due to prices being too high.
Portraying abstaining, third party, and trump voters in the same group is pretty lazy, if not intentional.
The electoral college exists: Every person I knew in swing states voted Harris in exchange for someone in CA or WA voting Claudia de la Cruz or otherwise.
But I guess even Harris voters can be made into Trump supporters with enough effort at this stage.
I think your criticism of grouping them all is fair. Nevertheless the question OOP asked has been generating insightful discussion so I can’t really be too pset.
Yea, there is only one issue at stake. Super simple to make Biden/a Harris voters to DANALD TRAMP after you lobotomize them with electroshock therapy. Makes tons of sense.
I just don't understand people railing at the non voters and the people who voted for Trump. It seems as backward as a rocket scientist raging at drag and wind breaking their rocket. "How dare the wind do this! Don't they know this will progress humanity!?!"
It's your job to build a rocket that can withstand the air at those speeds. The air is always a problem you have to deal with, and no, you can't shame the air into doing what you want.
Genuinely the democratic campaign seemed more like they were pushing a trolley problem than a future. So why is everyone so shocked it failed?
excellent analogy.
airflow and friction can be manipulated and corrected. Trump knows this and has been doing it for 8 years.
sure, wind drag is an infuriating factor, i get pissed off at it sometimes, but it will never take the majority of the blame from me compared to the people forcing us all into the damn rocket.
The DNC spent a billion dollars to lose an election to a racist rapist. Again.* All their fancy political science degrees and polls and data analytics amounted to jack shit. We don't blame the passengers when a 737-Max flies into the ground, we blame the so-called experts who fucked up so badly they should fall on their swords.
They also pulled some insane unforced errors like campaigning with a Cheney and letting off on the "weird" stuff that was actually getting traction. They're playing a political game that stopped working in 1976, that people want bipartisanship and decorum.
The entire party is composed of Leslie Knopes, except without the charm or empathy. They'd point to graphs of median wage growth and tell people their grocery bills didn't matter. They're a bunch of rich nerds, just like the Republicans are rich jocks.
Bad analogy dude. The wind isn't sentient. You cannot speak to the wind and convince it to change direction.
Why are you equating the people who criticize non-voters and Trump voters with the Democrats? I will criticize non-voters and Trump voters all day long, but I am not a Democrat; I am not even American.
Your framework suggests that only Democrats have agency (and you also rhetorically equate the party and its voters, which isn't reasonable), whereas non-voters and Trump voters don't.
In reality, everyone has agency, and everyone is affected by large-scale social forces. I see lots of people on all sides doing everything to limit their side's responsibility. Everyone is responsible for the role they played in this election.
I am not criticizing Democrat voters. I am criticizing the Democratic party themselves. I'm criticizing the campaign, I'm criticizing the president and the VP. I'm criticizing everyone in power who didn't try to convince him to step down and not run again. They are the rocket scientists and all the voters are the wind.
If the Democratic party aren't going to learn from this and just go "well voters are dumb we did everything right". They will lose again to the next fascist (or maybe the same? Who knows what Trump will do)
If that's the case, then the Democratic party just ain't the way to win against facism.
You compare voting to the laws of physics. They're not even remotely similar. Politics is choice.
A more apt comparison would be a little kid crying that he wants a chocolate ice cream, his mum says he should order that, then to be funny/petulant/assertive he orders strawberry - and gets mad at his mum when the server gives him strawberry. "It was your job to make me choose what I wanted!", he wails.
Edit: my phone can't spell 'comparison'
Your comparison is worse.
The options weren't chocolate and vanilla. They were getting kicked down a steep hill or kicked off a cliff, and you seem flabbergasted that some people chose to flip the bird instead of groveling and thanking the democrats for only kicking them down a steep hill.
Especially when in the next 4 years their options are gonna be slightly steeper hill or another cliff.
Reminded me of when the Republicans overrode Obama's veto of that one 9/11 bill, and then complained that it was his fault and he didn't warn them hard enough.
I think you're getting your roles all mixed up with your analogy. The anger you reference is at fellow voters. It isn't the average voter's job to build a better rocket. And the wind is not alterable but voter decisions are. The anger is at the decision makers who chose the rocket that was less capable of dealing with the harsh wind or chose to not pick a rocket at all, knowing that would result in the lesser rocket being picked.
no, I'm not.
I'm not angry at the voters. I've watched the whole primary looking at the democratic strategy thinking. 'That's not gonna work", "thats not gonna resonate with voters", "where the hell is Biden?", "Is Biden still cognizant?"
At some point, a campaign or candidate can be so bad, that I can't blame anyone but them for losing. Joe Exotic, the tiger king, ran for an elected position and lost. I blame him. His campaign was trash. He did better than expected purely from his fame, but I do not credit the voters for keeping him out of office. He did a lot of damage to himself all on his own.
From my perspective, as someone who didn't have a vote in US politics and wanted you guys to vote to kick the can down the road until next time, but also understood the sentiment of those who didn't bother, it wasn't a belief that Trump would do any better so much as a loss in faith that the Democrats were who they claimed to be.
When hope dies, it might be replaced by despair, anger, and desperation, or it might be replaced by apathy.
And while that was going on, there was also propaganda going on where people were trying to push the idea that Trump would be any better. I don't believe that there were a significant number of voters who voted for Trump or stayed home because they believed that to be true.
Right now, it looks like the main conflicts about this I'm seeing on this platform are those with hope trying to rally the troops, while those with anger are mainly upset at those with apathy.
Well put. From this framework, Trump didn’t win. Apathy did.
Trump got more votes in 2020 than he did in 2024, but kamala got even less of Biden's votes.
Biden remains the highest presidential vote getter in history.
Whenever I look in the mirror, it reminds me of how others are to blame
Sure, the material consequences if you, specifically, live in a swing state. I do, so I voted for Kamala. But this take, applied outside of states that were up for grabs, is asinine. But hey, nuance is for people who don't want to just keep trying the same failed approach to presidential elections every 4 years and would rather bitch about anyone less moderate than them.
I have problems with people who abstained. The hard thing is, how do you change voter behavior?
I didn't abstain. I voted for a candidate that didn't support genocide while living in a solidly oligarch controlled state. What you would probably call "throwing my vote away."
But no voter had a say in this past election. It was a struggle between the corporatist and oligarch branches of the capitalist class, and the oligarchs threw more money at buying the election.
That's it. No need to vote shame, regardless of if someone did or did not vote. It should be blatantly obvious by now that the Office of the President is (well, was) a rental. Now the oligarchs bought it from the corporatist landlords and plan to remodel and reside in it forever.
There is no war but class war. Nobody is coming to save us. We have to save ourselves. Organize. Let's make voting useful again.
But no voter had a say in this past election.
Whatever you have to tell yourself I guess.
You threw your vote away dude.
They were on the correct side of the value system, but could not bring themselves to agree to the tactical compromise.
Genuine question, why should I keep agreeing to a compromise that every time I look back has run farther and farther to the right and away from what my values are. You can say protest and advocate for change but when that happened they where shamed arrested and expelled. The railway union was forced into an unfavorable contract by the democrats. At what point is it that this compromise is less a compromise and more a pacification, and me lending my support to another right wing extention? Where is the red line? are individuals not allowed to have positions where if you support them they will not suport you? or even if you get enough of them?
The ratchet effect is real and people should abandon both parties.
That being said there was 0% chance someone besides a D or R would win the 2024 election, so D was the objectively correct choice for anyone who isn't rich.
That being said the protest voters didn't actually impact the election in a meaningful way, and the insane pushback against them now is part of a propaganda campaign to keep the poors fighting.
why should I keep agreeing to a compromise
Motions broadly at everything Is this not enough to look past your ideals in a rigged system?
Look, I get it and I share your values. But come the fuck on. You guys got had by the One Issue being pushed around while everyone else told you not to and now the US lost everything and there's lasting damage and many more people will end up suffering and dying for many other reasons. 20/20 vision now says Harris was the right choice all along. It's frustrating.
Now go actually look at the outcome of the railway union thing.
I never called Joe and Kamala with such pejoratives, but both still would have enabled genocide on Palestinians even if the number would have been fewer.
Enabled Israel to kill Palestinians vs kill all Palestinians, take their land, turn the US into Giliad, start trade wars with all the neighbors. Same/same.
Even without the enabling of genocide of Palestine, the Democratic Party's refusal to go further left and provide free healthcare and affordable housing at a time people need it most, made the party indirectly complicit with killing those who already died from rough sleeping and refused healthcare by for-profit insurance companies, even if less died on those circumstances than if the Republican party is in charge.
Murder is still murder regardless of numbers. I can't blame people if many sat out at the elections. But it is a wake up call for people to actually mobilise, instead of going on social media and ranting against the system as if that would change anything. If voting doesn't work, go out and protest.
Thanks Kamala
Well here's one Arab American for Trump views.
What a dope. It’s a mystery to me Why anyone would GAF about what a dope like this guy thinks
I will always doubt elections so long as I cannot verify my vote was actually counted in the final tally.
I always think of Florida in 2000. The hanging chads represented votes denied.
Relevant: https://youtube.com/watch?v=hDd21pEmP4g
Clinton Eugene Curtis, testifies that he made the software (probably used to rig the 2004 election). He explains in detail regarding being hired by Congressman Tom Feeney in 2000 to build a prototype software package that would secretly rig an election to sway the result 51 / 49 to a specified side to flip flop the election in favor of who they want to win.
It's sxephil! Haven't thought about that guy in like a decade
Considering this group you're pointing out wasn't big enough to make Harris win maybe Democrats should focus inward on their own failures instead of playing stupid ass finger pointing games with people left of them. Y'all lost despite your stance on genocide, not because of it unfortunately.
Many stayed home, how can you quantity their reasoning? They're absent, but what you can say is for those that are capable of voting, didn't care much they trump could win.
how can you quantity their reasoning?
Well instead of pretending it's unknowable we can look at the demographics of who voted for Biden in 2020 but refused to vote for Harris.
It was Boomers, genX, and older Millennials. Who were white men/women and hispanic men. Most likely stayed home because these groups have well known deeply rooted misogyny.
Young people, gaza protesters, didn't vote, the same as young people vote every election.
I absolutely agree. It is horrific to see people going through the most dehumanizing of treatment by the Democratic party getting screamed down by white moderate liberals for not falling in line exactly as the Zionist machine wants them to.
More like "we fed you the result of your own actions and now you don't like the way it tastes cuz you got worse than Harris"
No matter what else happens the fact will never change that you could have picked Harris and actually saved Gaza. But instead you pretended game theory wasn't real and let it be destroyed by trump.
I have a (conspiracy) theory that those “genocide Joe” and “killer Kamala” folk are astroturfing for MAGA.
.
I will never regret choosing to vote third party no matter what happens. I will not regret my vote even if Trump marches me personally into a gas chamber. The sooner you get that through your heads, the better. You will never be able to "scare me straight" by pointing to the Republicans, no matter what they do.
The reason things have gotten as bad as they are, to where we have to choose between genocide and genocide-lite, is because of a complete unwillingness to have a spine and draw a red line, out of fear of letting the other side win. We have sacrificed every single standard and principle in the name of that fear. This "common sense" strategy of unconditional support of the lesser evil is actually completely insane, and easily falls apart under scrutiny.
However, if you cannot be persuaded that we are correct, then it is better that you see us as stubborn and irrational. Because a stubborn and irrational person will only be persuaded by giving them what they want, and not by words or anything else. If you want to make sure the Democrats actually win next time, the best strategy is to pressure them into conceding to our demands. Which, if you think about that for 5 seconds, it makes our approach seem a lot less stupid and irrational, but what do I know, I'm stupid and irrational.
The vote wasn’t between genocide and genocide lite. It was between genocide lite and genocide, plus additional genocides, some domestic, plus economic sabotage, plus the emergence of a new evangelical southern Baptist military regime.
I don’t think that narrowing the scope of the voting gap to just you is helpful, so I don’t want to use this as a moment to level scorn. I just want to be very clear that the premise you presented is wrong. Very wrong
It must be easy to stand from on high in judgement of others when you aren’t the one that stood to lose anything, because It’s the ones that have nothing to lose that always go all-in at the table.
Your lack of regret clearly illustrates that your decision was influenced by a colossal amount of entitlement.
You are stupid...for not realizing game theory is real. Your reasoning is flawed and you literally hurt yourself as a result.
Keep shooting yourself in the foot while Gaza is razed when you could have saved it by voting Harris.
You're like the pokemon that hurt itself in its confusion.
You are stupid for thinking that you understand game theory without actually studying it. I fully understand your reasoning, but you haven't grasped mine at all, because it's a higher level, and because you don't understand it you call it stupid.
You wanna talk game theory, let's talk game theory. Two people are given $100 to split. One person makes an offer, the other choses to accept or deny - if they deny, nobody gets anything. What is the "game theory rational" outcome? The offer made is a $99-$1 split, which is accepted, because $1 is better than nothing.
What actually happens when this has been done irl? The result is offers less than about $30 get rejected, and so the offers tend to be more equitable. Chosing to take nothing may be less "rational" on the surface level, but by establishing it as a credible threat of denial, this "irrational" approach achieves a better outcome. Normally, if I played that game with someone, I'd probably just offer a 50-50 split, but if it was one of you, I'd only offer you a dollar, because I know you'd take it. Because literally your whole ideology is built around accepting shitty deals, rejecting the deal would invalidate your entire belief system, you're pushovers.
The reason that people are prone to the "irrational" strategy in that game is that the "rational" strategy is only rational within the confines of the game. In real life, the game doesn't end there, and if you signal you'll accept a $99-$1 split, that's all you'll ever get in the future.
Your reasoning is flawed and you hurt yourself as a result. Keep shooting yourself in the foot and hurting yourself in your own confusion.
And no, Kamala would not have "saved" Gaza, that would be laughable if it wasn't such a harmful belief.
Edit: Basically this, but replace economics with game theory lol
At least the better part of them are now posting under the hashtag #DonaldOfDeath.
Trump wouldn't be able to talk about "rebuilding" Gaza now if Biden/Harris hadn't already helped demolish it
Everybody knows shit's fucked, no need to rub it in by stating the obvious.
Yes he would.
Wow, I haven't had Philip DeFranco on my mind in a minute, bro. I grew out of him quite fast. He was talking a load of gossip and I just wasn't interested anymore. Must be 10 years since I watched a video.
Interesting, I wasn't really a fan of his before but been watching him off and on for the past couple of months. His format must've changed because I wouldn't really consider his video's gossip (I only get his news videos in my feed, not sure if he does others).
Ok, so I was curious and went to his channel and browsed his videos. You're absolutely right it used to be all internet "fame" gossip lol, with maybe a news story sprinkled in here and there. It seems he's decided to shift his stance looking at the last couple of months. I honestly don't mind the gossip sprinkled in because I don't have the energy to keep up with all the influencer drama and I'm usually left confused when I hear about it.
I'll admit I was surprised with realizing that post was from defranco, usually he's way more neutral about his position when reporting on things. He's trying to come off as genuine but then it all falls apart when he describes people yelling and just generally using a negative tone giving his position away.
Yeah, it used to be really bad IMO. I don't know how he is now but what drove me away was a) the subject matter deteriorated very badly, and b) the way he sensationalized every single little event was just too phony for me. It was so obvious that it was an act to get you overly hyped about what he was talking about and to get you to stay on his channel. And if I'm being 💯, I kinda just don't like the way he talks, on top of the other things.
I guess I'm too old by now? I just want straight facts given to me straight. The facts of the world are sensational/upsetting enough as they are without needing a hype man. It just becomes too much, and absurd.
Having said that, I do like a bit of quality humor mixed in with some news and criticism, like Jon Stewart on The Daily Show. That shit is fire. 😆
that may have been the case 10 years ago, now the dude has a news show. It's pretty good for what it is.
That's good but I don't think I'll revisit. 😅
Based on the top level comments here - yeah, they still think that Harris is exactly the same as Trump, and have zero regrets.
bad summary of the top level comments. opinion invalid.
It becomes more simplified if you just look at the US as a one party state with two divisions that serve the same one party leadership.