Denmark to seek legal means to prevent Quran burnings
Denmark to seek legal means to prevent Quran burnings
Foreign Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen says gov’t will consider possibility of intervening in ‘special situations’.
The Danish government will try to find legal means that will enable authorities to prevent the burning of copies of the Quran in front of other countries’ embassies in Denmark, Foreign Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen has said.
“The burnings are deeply offensive and reckless acts committed by few individuals. These few individuals do not represent the values the Danish society is built on,” Rasmussen said in a statement on Sunday.
“The Danish government will therefore explore the possibility of intervening in special situations where, for instance, other countries, cultures, and religions are being insulted, and where this could have significant negative consequences for Denmark, not least with regard to security,” he said.
Denmark and Sweden have found themselves in the international spotlight in recent weeks following protests where the Quran, the Islamic holy book, has been damaged or burned.
In a separate statement on Sunday, Swedish Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson said he had been in close contact with his Danish counterpart Mette Frederiksen, and that a similar process was already under way in Sweden.
“We have also started to analyse the legal situation already … in order to consider measures to strengthen our national security and the security of Swedes in Sweden and around the world,” Kristersson said in a post to Instagram.
Outrage in Muslim countries
This month, far-right activists have carried out a number of public burnings of Islam’s holy book in front of the Iraqi, Egyptian, and Turkish embassies in the Danish capital.
On Monday, two members of the ultra-nationalist Danish Patriots stomped on a copy of the Quran and set it alight in a tin foil tray next to an Iraqi flag.
Earlier this month in Sweden, an Iraqi citizen living in the country, Salwan Momika, 37, stomped on the holy book and set several pages alight.
The public burnings in the Scandinavian countries have sparked widespread outrage across Muslim countries, with Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, Iran, Morocco, Qatar and Yemen lodging protests in response.
Sweden and Denmark have said they deplore the burning of the Koran but cannot prevent it under their rules protecting freedom of expression.
The United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC) earlier this month approved a resolution on religious hatred and bigotry following several burnings.
Pakistan and other Organisation of Islamic Cooperation countries backed the motion, along with a number of non-Muslim majority countries including India and Vietnam. The United States and the European Union opposed the resolution on the grounds it interfered with freedom of expression.
In his statement, Rasmussen added that whatever measure was taken “must of course be done within the framework of the constitutionally protected freedom of expression and in a manner that does not change the fact that freedom of expression in Denmark has very broad scope”.
Maybe acknowledge that if you want to attack or even kill someone for burning a stupid book, the problem lies with the attacker, not the book burner.
Fuck religion.
I hoped it was clickbait, but it isn't. What the fuck Denmark.
The Danish government will try to find legal means that will enable authorities to prevent the burning of copies of the Quran in front of other countries’ embassies in Denmark
Emphasis mine. This isn't some major restriction of free speech or anything, it's just a way to prevent idiots from trying to ruin diplomatic relations between Denmark and other countries.
A law that prevents someone from burning a book counts as a major restriction on free speech as far as I am concerned. It's a book for gods sake. The fact that burning it causes offense is immaterial.. simply causing offense to a group is not sufficient ground to place a restriction on an act that otherwise harms no one.
The good news is that the burnings are still legal in front of danish embassies in Denmark. Which of course is nonsense, but why stress that it's in front of foreign embassies, that doesn't even make any kind of sense, it's the only kind of embassies there is. But that's how the government chose to put it!?
Instead og this diplomacy nonsense, giving in to fanatic muslims and undermining our democracy. We should rather invite them to a danish hygge meeting, with danish beer and traditional danish roast pork, and say they can bring their dogs if they want.
We shouldn't let religious fanatics dictate what we do in Denmark, that has zero impact and does zero harm to them. While they still have a death sentence on Salman Rushdie, and perform terrorist acts in Europe!!
This is a slippery slope that will never end, until we say enough is enough.
Oh no, some people are burning paper outside my building. I guess it's time to declare war.
Yeah sure sensible. Give up a little freedom for a little security. That will definitely give us both and make us deserve both.
Hey new rule. No more LGBT flags near those embassies. Also no more temples/shrines/churchs/whathaveyou for other religions except Islam near those embassies. Also women have to wear face coverings. No alcohol or pork to be served.
Denmark doesn't have unrestricted free speech. Censorship is against the constitution but hate speech, inciting violence or defamation is illegal and until 2017 blasphemy was illegal. There is some legal basis for punishing speech that is bringing the country into danger or is severely insulting another nation. I am not a lawyer so I don't know if it's applicable or if it will hold up in court.
Note that the government does not want to ban burning books. Just prevent/punish doing it as a provocation against another country.
I also want to stress that I am not defending the Danish government or the book burners. I just want to bring some needed nuance to the discussion
Also there's presedence in a lot of countries that restrict protesting in front of embassies.
For instance in Switzerland in front of US and UK embassies. Not that I'm for that. I hope the police in Bern gets reigned in soon for their conduct.
Oil money my friend, oil money can buy everything.
I'm an Ex-christian. Religion has provoked plenty of suffering against me and my family through my life. I want to have the right to burn a Bible. The same way, I want Ex-muslims to have the right to burn the Quran.
I'm an exmuslim and dont see the point of desecration. It isnt going to change anyones mind or bring me acceptance (in fact I'd argue it will do the opposite). I want my worldview to be seen as rational and respectable, not angry and represented by empty acts.
I will however defend the right to criticize and say controversial things about Islam that have actual substance to them.
As stupid provoking those medieval idiots is, it definitely shouldn't be illegal. If I decide to start my grill with Quran in order to make me a dinner of pork chops, or draw Mohamed on piece of paper in order to pick up my dog's shit with it, it definitely shouldn't be illegal. Same way as saying Jesus is technically a zombie isn't illegal.
As stupid provoking those medieval idiots is, it definitely shouldn’t be legal.
I think you mean illegal.
Well, the complication here is that the far-right groups pulling these stunts are allegedly being backed by Russia. The goal being to draw a backlash from Turkey in order to stop Sweden's NATO bid. They also burned a Torah to draw outrage from Israel, which is a country that Russia wants to keep on-site.
Free speech is being weaponized here, these are not random acts of self expression.
They never actually burned the Torah. Both of the protestors that filed for permits for that backed out - one burned a blank sheet of paper instead.
They were just being performative and expected the Swedish police to be hypocrites, and were surprised when stuck to their values and didn't deny permission.
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That is a valid concern. Maybe they should deal with that instead of appeasement? These powerful governments can't run a counter-intelligence program inside their own nation?
Technically hes a lich
This guy technicallies
Based on the rest of your comment, I think you missed an "il" at the beginning there.
They're only seeking to make it illegal in front of embassies, not in general. For now at least.
Nods in Neville Chamberlain
I'm opposed to burning the Quran, but I am even more opposed to making it illegal to do so.
The wording quoted from the Danish politician by OP, assuming it is correctly quoted and translated sounds horrible and dystopian. Imaging making a law to make it illegal to do something that offends other people, or even offends other people from other countries. Now you have other people deciding on tummy feeling what is legal in your country. Absolutely disgusting.
Burning the Quran should continue to be legal, I just don't see why you would do that, or other books for that matter. There are way more price efficient ways to produce heat than book burning
Yes, this is a case where the carrot is better than the stick. I'm not danish (maybe a blueberry one though), but if I was prone to burning books and the government suddenly cracked down on that, maybe I'm also prone to burning constitutions?
I agree on principles, but they only want to prevent it outside of Muslim countries' embassies though.
Realpolitik. They probably just want to have good relations with these nations.
That really doesn't make it better. They are basically extending the border of another country within their own country and doing it not due to very valid concerns like security or traffic flows, they are doing it to appease a sect of sky-daddyism. I wonder how much more of their citizens they plan to give away to a foreign power to buy themselves "peace in our time".
Honestly the main problem I see here is people setting fire to items in a public space without proper combustion containment.
Like, sure, burn a book if you feel like it. But you should coordinate with the local fire department and use an approved and setting-appropriate container like a burn barrel, chiminea, etc.
Safety first, folks :]
wait what if instead of burning books there are other ways of desecrating it. like stomping and shitting. or both at the same time.
I think that the actual burning is just a symbol - that says, "fuck your book!". If burning is prohibited, people will just turn to whatever other method is available to them. It becomes a game of whack a mole, with people moving to new and creative ways until in the end just holding it up or something gets to mean the exact same thing. Or something like that.
Ex-muslim here. The Quran should not get special treatment in the eyes of the law from any other book.
I oppose hatred towards Muslims, but the religion itself isn't exempt from criticism, and yes, that does include idiots who want to set the book on fire to make some kind of stupid point.
I don't like it, but I don't like the world having to tiptoe around overly sensitive Muslims who think everybody should show the same respect to the book that they do. The outrage would be at nowhere near the same magnitude if it were the Bible. Grow the hell up and stop validating these dumbass book burners.
They do it to get attention so giving them attention when they do it is actually the worst possible response.
However they are probably going to ban the practice because allowing it to continue will just invite potential retaliation it's not worth it.
This is signaling exactly the wrong message to the violent protesters. They see "if we throw a tantrum they do what we want" it will lead to more violent protest.
The opposite reaction would be appropriate. Tell tgem "If you continue to be violent we will mock your prophet and your book even more". If those people really listen to the Quran this should stop the violence.
During Mohammeds time the Muslims would mock the gods of the polytheists. When the polytheists finally had enough and threatened to mock Islam if they don't stop, "Allah" revealed
Surah 6:108
˹O believers!˺ Do not insult what they invoke besides Allah or they will insult Allah spitefully out of ignorance. This is how We have made each people’s deeds appealing to them. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them of what they used to do.
If you delete a file containing the Quaran from your computer, is that bad too?
I do think that the larger point is more so that they did it publicly. It was done with the deliberate intention of course in offence.
They will really just been awkward and belligerent there was no reason to do the thing they did other than to be a pain.
Obviously I don't care if they've burn the Quran, except as they say it leads to potential security risks. It's just reckless to do things you know are going to lead to political difficulties and disproportionate retaliations.
Honestly I am all for freedom of speech and am atheist, but I don't think burning books is a form of free speech that should be recognized.
I feel no matter the book, burning it is just low class and only done to fuel anger. It's more akin to hate speech than free speech.
There are plenty of other ways to get your point across, only 'bad guys' resort to burning books.
I like your argument but I think I prefer the guy who says it should be a legal fire. Its more a property rights issue really. If you own the book and your burning it in a way that is legal then it should be as legal as burning a newspaper or whatever. I do think it should not be socially acceptable and especially as protest. People should look down on those who burn knowledge even if its a work of fiction like that.
The freedom of speech isn't primarily concerned with the protection of uncontroversial or popular speech.
A great way to prevent burning of flags, religious texts and other icons is too reform how those organizations are perceived.
I've heard there's certain religious texts that claimn best-in-history expertise on doing good and the proper way to treat others.
Seems like some folks should, if they really believe it, spend more time reading their copy and less time worrying about anyone else's copy.
Leaving aside for the moment the free speech issues inherent here... if you want to control what someone does with a book after you sell it? You can't sell it. Lend it, rent it, whatever; but if it's sold, you've given up all right to determine what happens with it.
Don't want to invest in the infrastructure to do that? Then is it really that important to you?
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I'll go ahead and say "just copy the German laws". §166 StGB:
Revilement of religious faiths and religious and ideological communities
- Whoever publicly or by disseminating content (section 11 (3)) reviles the religion or ideology1 of others in a manner suited to causing a disturbance of the public peace incurs a penalty of imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years or a fine.
- Whoever publicly or by disseminating content (section 11 (3)) reviles a church or other religious or ideological1 community in Germany or its institutions or customs in a manner suited to causing a disturbance of the public peace incurs the same penalty.
Historically speaking that section has been introduced after the 30 year war, when Lutherans and Catholics had it out for each other. It's why you don't see Lutherans calling Catholics Idolaters any more even though they still pray to Mary.
Apostasy, blasphemy, also religious critique etc. are all perfectly fine but if you're using religion as a vector of insult to disturb the public peace that's crossing the line. Burn all the Qurans you want just don't make a show out of it. Or print "The Quran, the holy Quran" on rolls of toilet paper and send them to public TV stations and mosques (actually happened).
1 "ideology" there is an iffy translation, what is meant is Weltanschauung. Say, Daoism is not a religion in the usual (German/western) sense but definitely a philosophy with deep epistemology and thus qualifies. So is Humanism.
One problem with this sort of law is that it only ever targets minority religious opinions. You'd never see a priest get prosecuted for telling atheists they deserve to burn in hell, for example.
My friend sadly this won't involve the burning of religious books. You can even do it live or on tv. If you insult the religion or their believers or provoke them with something else, you could use § 166 StGB. For example something like "all muslims should burn like this book" or "the islam is straight from hell, so we burn it...". § 130 StGB or § 185 StGB won't help you either. And as long as he owns the book you can't use § 303 StGB.
So just the burning could happen in Germany, too.
Sure, mere burning, even public, won't qualify especially as it could be a Muslim properly disposing of a damaged Quran (the general rule of thumb is "give it a proper burial", that includes burning).
But I don't think any of those troublesome burnings happen without whoever is doing it providing context as to why they're doing it which then enables §166 as evidenced by, well, the public peace being disturbed by their actions.
It could be that those people then switch to burning Qurans silently -- yes that's allowed in Germany, even in public, even if you're a known opponent of Islam. But silent protests are also way less likely to incite public ire, more easy to overlook, and kinda hard to rally people with, even as a third person (unless you yourself want to be found guilty of §166). Sure Muslims might be miffed but the law is there to protect the public peace, not religious sentiment, and also silent burnings are sooo easy to counter: "Thank you, brother, for disposing of the Quran according to proper tradition". The perpetrator might want to object but then, well, §166.
Or, differently put: You don't see Quran burnings in Germany.
Lastly, state and municipal ordinances regarding open fires and the environment still apply. While state-level stuff should be easy to comply with (largely fire safety, nature reserves, forests etc), my municipality has a "smoke must not disturb the public" kind of ordinance and if you're burning something in a busy shopping area they might just interpret that one a bit more strictly than when making a campfire on the beach. Be ready for engaged bureaucrats (heh) asking questions about the chemical makeup of the ink and glue used in the book so they can tell whether you created a risk to public health.
Damn, up to 3 years for that is way too harsh.
It's practically impossible to get sentenced to the maximum unless you really are trying to. The toilet paper Quran guy got one year probation, and the guy had previous offences, was unregenerate, and, quote the judge, "considerably infatuated". You have to leave room in the sentencing structure for recalcitrant repeat offenders, people who behead cows in Hindu temples, suchlike. The vast, vast majority of cases are dealt with by fines (standard German rate of one day of prison equals one day of disposable income for judgements under a year).
Up to 3 years is a bit extreme for that
Appeasement cowards. Giving up the rights of their citizens for very temporary diplomatic wins.
Just a reminder: there is no god and when you die you are just dead.
Let them burn, and let the assholes make themselves known.