Flirting with Trump is flirting with Nazism - Response to Andy Yen (CEO of Proton AG) on Reddit 📢📢📢
Flirting with Trump is flirting with Nazism - Response to Andy Yen (CEO of Proton AG) on Reddit 📢📢📢
327 comments
-
I can't be the only one who struggled to read that, and for general accessibility purposes since I'm already here:
Image ID:
andy1011000 Proton CEO posted:
"People honestly seem to forget that I live in Switzerland, where Republican/Democrat doesn't mean anything, and Trump isn't even on our ballot to be voted for..."
Onyx376. replied:
"The point is that fighting for a more just and equal society is not just about fighting for the fundamental right to privacy but also for all other fundamental rights, including individual rights and life. When you, as the CEO of a company that starts from these principles, nod positively to whatever action a political figure like Trump, who is known for always flagrantly putting his private interests ahead of those of his own nation, makes speeches about eliminating minorities, hurting their rights as citizens and flirting with Nazi movements, it is understandable that members of the privacy community are disappointed as this reveals a little about who is being the face of a company that should follow contrary principles. But now we really know what "freedom" means to you."
-
Doing the Lord's work right here. I absolutely cannot stand screenshots of desktop apps.
Mobile screenshots will be readable on both mobile and desktop.
But desktop screenshots are only readable on desktop.
-
Good bot
-
-
Holy shit he's still arguing with people about this today?
-
He’s well on his way to reaching Muskian levels of failure to shut the hell up.
-
I'd say he's already a foot over the line.
He's backally saying, "We Americans don't get it. He did nothing wrong because both sides are the same."
Rather than remorse, he's doubled down.
-
-
-
Ridiculous.
He specifically started talking about American party politics, unprompted, making sweeping statements about both Democrats and Republicans. NOW he wants to blame us for...being concerned with his views on American party politics? Dude. Get real.
Saying stupid shit now and then is forgivable, but not if you take it in as the new nucleus of your public image. Why do so many public figures have this compulsion to double down combatively?
-
Business owners should not touch politics, thats just alienates 50% of the user base no matter his views
-
-
andy88, if he cares about proton, should have resigned yesterday
-
Isn't 88 neo-Nazi code for "heil Hitler"? And isn't putting it in binary to disguise it evidence that he knows full well what it means?
-
Not even a little in this situation. Maybe take your head out of your ass and stop spreading lies. He literally addressed this head on.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i2nz9v/comment/m7nr5ym/
His reply in text form:
It's the year I was born, and also a lucky number in Taiwan where I am from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/88_(number)#%3A%7E%3Atext=Number+88+symbolizes+fortune+and%2Csupermarkets+often+contain+many+8s.
-
And explain this!!
-
-
Now to reply to the post itself, I think this sums it up:
Though the sad truth is that almost every single product or service we use are owned and run by people with similar opinions, it is literally the nature of the capitalist beast, it's how it function, and why it will always decay in to fascism - because those with the power and the money (not just those at the very very top, but several levels bellow them, too, like this guy) will always and forever care solely about maintaining it and creating more for themselves, that's it. And to do that, they have to side with whichever dictator-du-jour benefits them the most.
Remember - there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, and this is only one of the reasons why.
-
To an extent probably. But I use https://mullvad.net/ as my vpn, and they seem pretty great.
-
Probably where I'll go next, I have until the end of February and then my business will be elsewhere.
Since I set up some family at the same time, I'll be doing it for a few accounts.
-
I saw mullvad ads on the trams in my city yesterday, really nice to see something good like it being advertised like that.
-
-
-
https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i2ff6q/call_for_andy_yen_to_resign/
UPDATE: Andy Reply
According to Andy's logic, if Hitler were the president of some unfortunate country, we should differentiate the boss from his good nominees. Even using a company founded by an entire community to show a good evaluation made by one of its founders to give him a loving pat on the back and show the world that he is not completely bad as they think, but not meaning that the founder agrees with all his innocent actions, of course, such as disregarding the rights of many people around the world because they are just part of the democratic game.
-
“People forget I don’t live in China. Just because I praise Mao for wanting to shed the yoke of cultural tradition, doesn’t mean I necessary support everything he’s doing…” -Andy, if this was 1966
-
Careful saying that around these tankie parts.
-
-
le false equivalence totally validates my endorsement for the worst president elected in US history
-
Wow, the comments on that Reddit post. Ok.
-
So, to get this straight, for you it's impossible to recognize that a pick for a position is a good pick in the Trump government, by definition, without consideration of the actual pick?
To me this is religion, not politics or ideology (which I both consider very good things). To be even more clear, I consider Andy's position completely rational and legitimate in this case. I believe it's absolutely legitimate to be happy Trump picked someone good for a position and at the same time not support the rest 98%. At most, the interesting debate is why that pick is not good, which is 100% opinable and worthy of a discussion.
But saying that any statement, in any context, whatever narrow and specific equal full support is completely insane to me.
-
If all he said was literally "i approve of this pick for this position" you'd be correct.
What actually happened was he approved of the pick and also claimed the republicans are now actually the party that stands for the "little guy".
Then followed up with a non apology that claimed what he said was not intended to be a "political statement".
by all means, argue that you think there's a fuss over nothing, but if you leave important context out seemingly because it doesn't suit your narrative it weakens your argument substantially.
-
-
Honestly I find his attitude to be quite commendable and I think that speaks much louder than whatever it is you disagree with.
Maybe he should have just left Trump's name out of it entirely as that seems to be what really pushed people's buttons.
People are going to twist things around no matter what is said though. Don't forget hindsight makes everyone look guilty.
-
It would be one thing if Trump was actually anti-trust...but he isn't.
He's anti companies which don't prostrate themselves in front of him and bow to his whims. They're bad, terrible, anti American companies. The ones that do are great, wonderful, beautiful companies. The bad ones need to be broken up and given to the big ones.
He's so transparent it's painful. If someone says good things about Trump or give him money, they're good. If they don't, they're bad. It's absurdly obvious.
-
Maybe he should have just left Trump's name out of it entirely as that seems to be what really pushed people's buttons.
It probably didn't help, but no, I don't think that was it. I think it was his sweeping generalizations about dems/republicans as a whole, along with the insinuation that dems were bought, republicans are "looking out for the little guys", and the election undermined the will of the people:
Dems had a choice between the progressive wing (Bernie Sanders, etc), versus corporate Dems, but in the end money won and constituents lost. Until corporate Dems are thrown out, the reality is that Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses.
-
-
-
I seem to remember that Switzerland has a history of profiting from their relationships with Nazi's. Thus they might not be a good source of advice as to what to do about Nazi's.
-
It's dumb to call Trump a nazi and the populist wing of the Republican party nazis.
It's not even clever at this point, maybe it was edgy and transgressive like 7 years ago.
The reason it's dumb is that you are wasting all of your powerful language and you will have no more if things get worse. Boy who cried wolf. Just like people did to racist which used to carry great power and now is basically meaningless as a powerful descriptor.
-
It’s not even clever at this point, maybe it was edgy and transgressive like 7 years ago.
Are you really this childish that you genuinely think the only reason people might suggest Trump is a fascist is because it was "edgy and transgressive"? Not the fascist rhetoric, increasingly fascist policy and the various fascists he's willing to work with and support?
-
Gee. Which side has all the people marching with nazi flags?
Which side never kicks them out when they do?
-
I'm sorry but what? This is really weird logic as language and words aren't required to follow some linear path of severity. People call the GOP, Trump and the like Nazis because... they fit the definition of Nazis, actual card carrying Nazis support them by a significant majority. (Yeah yeah I know there is the odd one here or there that doesn't)
If it walks like a Nazi, talks like a Nazi and engages in Nazi tactics, behaviors etc. Then it can be called a Nazi. You don't reserve your language so that you have some end point to progress to.
It's also very weird to use the boy who cried wolf when the whole point of that story is that you don't call something that which it isn't for fear that when the real thing comes along no one will believe you as that would imply that they are in fact not Nazis. Which would only be true in the most technical of sense (As in they are not of the Nazi party of Germany) but by most dictionary definition the word fits.
Lastly, what the hell are you even talking about "edgy"? Do you think people are calling them Nazis to be edgy? Because that's ridiculous and quite frankly your entire comment screams of someone trying to defend them through deflection.
-
-
-
As swiss person I have to meet and talk to this guy, he can not be that stupid!
We definitely have something like the republicans party, it is called SVP (Schweizerische Volkspartei). SVP uses exactly the same tactics as republicans, like anti “woke”, anti regulation, anti common media, pro hate-speech(“anti censorship”), etc.
We just not have a single party to counter it, like democrats, but like 10 parties with little nuances.
We have some small parties besides SVP “on the republican site” but those tend to be irrelevant. Maybe, the anti corona party has a some relevance, still, but I guess their power is sinking.
I personally support the pirate party, which mainly stands for privacy, no matter if left or right, but the party it self is leading to the left (democratic) side.
At least, that is how I understand our situation here.
-
I am sure he is very smart about a lot of things. Unfortunately US politics are not one of those things. I also suspect he is not that good at business considering he just alienated a lot of his customers.
-
That's fascinating that you have so many parties. Do parties not have a lot of power at the "federal" level? Also curious if you have coalitions between similarly aligned parties!
-
They do have power. But it is split between around 4-5 bigger parties. Our federal council (similar to the President uf the US) is split into 7 persons, where the biggest parties get one or to seats. Like the mentioned SVP has "only" 2 seats and next big party the social Democrats have 2 seats as well.
What's nice in our system(in my opinion), there is no "The winner takes it all". Because our federal government is split between alot of parties, not one can "rule" alone. For every thing the want to pass, they need the support of multiple parties.
I wouldn't say we have ruling coalitions like you see in germany, but they do work-together if they have same goal.
-
This is how parliamentary governments work, they figured out how to resolve the bug in the US system that always tends towards two major parties. However the two-party system, so I've read, is actually a tad bit more resistant to the fascism bug, as parliamentary systems can have outright fascist parties winning a minority of the vote eventually grow big enough to take over and end the system entirely.
-
We have two “Räte“ like groups that write the laws depending on the constitution (they give new laws back and forth until an agreement is found, and after agreement there can be a referendum made with enough signatures from the people that are allowed to vote, which then leads to a vote where the people who are allowed to vote have to confirm the new law). One of these “Rat” is a Voting where all people allow to vote choose which party gets how much seats in this “Rat” and in the same voting you choose people to place on this seats. (It is a bit complicated and here at the choosing of seats. Partys can work together and “combine lists” meaning that they collect seats together and split it up after). In the other “Rat” there are a defined number of people per Kanton (the states of switzerland) and those are chosen by each Kanton in their own way. Kantons are relatively free on how to organise their government, but most have a similar mechanism as what is done in federal level.
The Bundesrat (aka 7 presidents of switzerland) are chosen by the people in the Rat (I would have to check if both Rat get to say something, or if it is only the one with the lists). We have some unwritten laws in choosing the 7 persons in the Bundesrat. The general consensus is, that we have to ensure most diversity possible (political, gender, and all the other things), but of course, here we have discussions all the time as well.
☺️feel free to ask more
-
-
-
He's kind of right on the money and kind of being completely dumb.
The fact of it is that Republicans don't want to help privacy or take down big tech's abuses, they want to make it worse. All of the reasonable things Andy has said have taken place past that, so in a way the entire conversation is talking past the point.
The question is, how can somebody so influential at a major privacy company not have such a pre-school understanding of major world figures' relationships to his core business?
-
That question is now irrelevant. He doesn't and so his company cannot be trusted. He showed his hand and its a straight flush, suited ignorance.
-
-
Andy will one day find out that, in the eye of the magat beholder, he is nothing but yellow. I hope he enjoys getting spent as the token he has become.
-
Get. Off. Reddit.
-
Americans are not flirting with Nazism. They dated it, married it and had many children with it.
-
Brother we've been arming and supporting a full-on ethnic extermination and bombing anyone who tries to stop it for over a year now. We're past flirting with fascism, we've bought a dog and moved onto a studio apartment with fascism. Fascism is making us coffee and thinking about opening an Etsy store to sell all the gold tooth fillings.
-
Dont post pictures of text without links to the source
-
Sorry. I've already added it.
-
-
Andy out here shooting straight through his foot and putting holes in his boat's hull.
-
-
Lmao that onyx guys comment is at -18
And protons reply:
I believe this is a false equivalence. Supporting a nominee for antitrust, is not the same as endorsing everything else Trump may or may not believe in or flirting with Nazism as you put it. It goes too far to draw that conclusion about Proton or myself.
They just dont get it
-
Always nice to be linked back to Reddit and reminded that it is a terrible place.
-
-
A wise man once told me, don't mess with politics. The moment you show stance (which usually isn't beneficial), you cut off options from yourself and endanger customer relationship.
Proton should just do business as usual, without that single post things would probably be just fine.
-
The fight for privacy and digital freedom is inherently political.
-
-
Totally in good faith. A post from last year? Yea, suck my dick andy. Deleting my account asap.
-
"hey guys social media manager here. It was all my fault. It's not our CEOs fault, at all. Just mine. Who am I? Well I can say my name definitely doesn't start with an A and end in a Y. Just little ol' faceless nameless me. Tee hee sorry."
-
-
Sounds like the CEO of proton doesnt understand the basic privacy concerns for the US VPN market. He should really look that up someday-- theres money to be made in the Us market if he cared enough.
-
Americans just now finding out what has always been in place.
Vpn from Switzerland won't save you - they will share our data if it comes to us needing access to it. And if proton refuses - it would have been shut down already like tiktok
-
-
Scratch under the surface of every for profit privacy / anonymity service, you find shitty libertarian cryptobros who probably post racist memes on 4chan while whining about feminism in the man-o-sphere. That doesn't speak to the nature of people who care about privacy, it speaks to the nature of people who care about privacy and also want to do capitalism.
-
Except Proton AG is owned by a Non-Profit, the Proton Foundation. Andy Yen can't directly pocket the profits, except by asking the non-profit board of trustees to give him a raise in salary (and there's probably legal limitations to the salary, otherwise everyone could just claim to be a "Non-Profit" while secretly making profits).
-
-
Given recent events, I really don't see how bending the knee to Trump is any different than bending the knee to the Democrats, especially Biden who committed genocide for 15 months. It's just another capitalist bending the knee to the world hegemon in the United States. Trump is just more straightforward and bombastic about the USA's position in the world as it's hegemon and it's demands, forcing ordinary people, especially liberals in the United States, to confront that reality directly, whilst under Biden that was obfuscated by flowery language and decorum. I guess that decorum and flowery language was enough for US liberals to "turn off" so to speak, and go back to brunch while the world burns.
-
What? Trump is subservient to Russia and China. He's selling the country off to make a quick buck.
-
See this is the exact liberal nonsense I'm talking about. How is Trump "subservient to Russia and China"? Because he views continuing the war in Ukraine as no longer in the United States' interest? And China? I thought Trump was all about tariffs on Chinese goods and starting a trade war in his last term. I don't see that as subservient, that's confrontation. A negative confrontation that just hurt everyone globally, but maybe necessary from a third world perspective, waking up the third world to the reality of the United States and it's economic warfare. If you're talking about dialing down the temperature against China in his upcoming term, that would be because the US benefits from Chinese imports and can't wean itself off of them due to a lack of domestic manufacturing and industry, and because China needs a market to sell their goods to as domestic consumption + exports to the rest of the world can't make up for US consumption, so they'll give in to US demands. I fail to see how such a position is "pro China" it's just self interest.
You have to stop viewing politics through the personalities of world leaders as if it's some kind of Hollywood movie, and view the material reality. If the USA is no longer interested in pursuing a certain action or decides to escalate on another front in the next four years, ask yourself why is that the case, instead of defaulting to "Trump crazy stupid strongman dictator selling out the USA". That kind of liberal analysis is not helpful and will leave you lost. Never underestimate your adversary.
For example in Greenland, many people were going on about how Trump is some big idiot that wants a country that looks big on a Mercator projection. Meanwhile, the United States secured a large rare earth metals deposit in Greenland, stoping Chinese mining companies from getting the rights to it. The US company that bought the rights to the rare earth metals deposit signed a contract with the United States Department of Defence to process the metals. While everyone was distracted by Trump talking nonsense, the US pulled of a heist and exerted more political pressure on its allies. When one hand is doing something (in this case Trump's loud mouth), always look at moves the other hand is making (in this case, the US DoD getting more control in Greenland over their mining deposits). If you fail to do so, the jester will rob you blind. In this case, a large deposit of Rare Earth Ores in Greenland, China excluded and Denmark further vassalised.
-
-
Has the Proton CEO bent the knee to the Democrats like he’s apparently done with Trump?
-
Yeah, I really think this is a little overblown for what he said.
Critical support for specific reasons doesn't exist for these people. Just black and white, Harry and Voldemort.
-
-
the comments in that thread is such a reddit moment
-
As some who has been out literal in the woods, can someone give me more context?
-
tl:dr Proton CEO came out on Twitter and praised Trump's selection for FTC leader. Which is fine, in my opinion, even though I disagree with it. What's not so fine is that he followed that up with basically "dems are bought and conservatives are more likely to fight for consumer privacy", which is abundantly clearly to anyone who pays attention to US politics, objectively incorrect.
-
-
Wait, the proton ceo is a trump supporter? What the fuck, he's the last person I thought would do that
-
No, I would not describe him as a trump supporter. I would say that he's a right-wing "Libertarian" tech-bro that has no clue about American politics, just spewing his uneducated bs because he thinks he's some genius. He might be a CERN scientist, but he's a dumbass when it comes to American politics.
(But it is concerning to have such an idiot on the board of the Proton Foundation)
-
Considering how he runs a business whose goal is to capture the privacy crowd and how a large portion of the privacy crowd is made up of those "Libertarian" tech-bro types, it might be more than just "no clue about American politics", especially since he's also doing stuff like promoting Bitcoin through Proton Wallet which is also popular among "Libertarian" tech-bro types, and the article used for marketing that both-sidesed the problems the "left" vs "right" experience and equated the Democrats with the "left", which is popular among "Libertarian" tech-bro types as well. The 88 in his Reddit username is also suspect regardless of him claiming that it's there because it's his birth year. People who know how to operate a business usually aren't doing it out of stupidity, so I'm not going to give him the benefit of the doubt on this, especially since the entire platform depends on trusting that they aren't doing anything shady.
-
He's a money supporter.
-
-
The motherfucker lives in Switzerland and he supports Putin's Sock Puppet. Fuck Andy. The USA will regress further away from the Swiss standard of living, which is what the USA should be striving for.
-
All he had to do was keep his mouth shut & show his support on another account
-
This needs to be pinned at the top: only a Nazi goes out of their way to put an 88 in their username. He thinks he’s clever by putting it in binary so people don’t immediately call him out. Nazis get off on that kind of “clever” dogwhistle.
-
When was he born? Not everyone knows all the "secret" signs for stuff. How 18 is A.H or how 81 is H.A (Hells Angels) 1% biker clubs have surprisingly much of such codes. 8 is also the number of Khorne in the Warhammer fantasy/sci-fi setting. And before we start with that there are surprisingly few Nazis who play, but the few are very vocal.
Years ago I saw a guy in a crocery store in Norway wearing a "Combat18 Böhmen" hoodie. Buying ingredients for tex-mex taco incidentally. And when I pointed him out to my wife, she said that you are probably the only one in here to know this, and spot him for what he is.
So if Andy was born in 1988 I hope it's why he has 88 in his username.
-
Here's all I could find about his age in a few minutes:
He was actually born in 1988, according to the author's article. If anyone can find a more reliable resource, please, post it here🙏
-
When was he born? Not everyone knows all the “secret” signs for stuff.
I don't care when he was born. Who puts their birth year in their username? "Here, internet. Here's one less piece of information you need to steal my identity!"
No. "ItS mY bIrF YeEr" is just what nazi shit says when they get called out on being nazi shit.
-
-
only a Nazi goes out of their way to put an 88 in their username
Yeah, I'm gonna need a citation for that. I was born in 1988.
-
-
Tangential: shouldn't it be "Naziism"? Like, in "Nazi" the "i" belongs to "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei", or the "Natio—" part. But shouldn't there be another "i" that goes with the "ism" suffix, so "Naziism"? Am I thinking about it in the wrong way?
-
Or just fascism, nazi is a specific brand of fascism
-
I'm not talking about the ideology here, I'm talking about the linguistics of it all, specifically about the word "Nazism". 😊
-
-
-
Giorgio Galli ... the born of Nazism and please stop to rant about Trump and Nazism ... the Nazism did not born in Germany but in the civilized Vienna and in France, the young Hitler was having masters that did not seen a judge after the war and the heritage of them is still very much thriving in Bruxelles ... and really I am not here to lecture but to explore the web iceberg with freemind and happiness ... not to bother myself with these gross traces of ignorance ( very easy to be solved with 4-5 kilos of right books ).
-
Context?
-
I moved several years worth of emails off their platform and closed my subscription on Friday. Enough is enough. I’m not giving this guy another dime. I specifically pointed to andy88’s behaviour in the “why are you cancelling” dialogue. I feel for the good people who work at that company and don’t support this, but we all have choices to make.
-
What is this about?
-
Founder/CEO of Proton said something vaguely positive about Trump's one cabinet pick and therefore EVERYBODY IS MOVING OUT OF PROTON RIGHT FUCKING NOW
-
If its only that, there's be less panic. But he also said something stupid like "rePUbliCAnS stANd uP fOR tHE 'liTtLE gUY'" 🙄
-
ah yes, the American mindset
-
-
-
Glad I cancelled. If the CEO is this clueless and/or and/or ignorant and/or disingenuous do I really want them responsible for my private data?
-
Yes, because nobody (including you) is probably going to do it better: https://www.theguardian.com/news/oliver-burkeman-s-blog/2014/may/21/everyone-is-totally-just-winging-it
-
-
Don't like it, move out.
-
Just a reminder that democrats funded a genocide and police brutality. Democrats are no better than Republicans.
-
Well sure Hitler took over, but can you imagine if the communists were in charge instead? They're no better than the Nazis.
-
And also a reminder that Switzerland flirted with actual nazism. Remember that whole "neutral" during WWII thing. That was really finlandization of Switzerland from western powers. They operated inside the German economic block.
So telling a swiss company that Trump is a nazi and association with anything even 0.0000001% a nazi would be outside of what you'd expect for a Swiss is kind of funny.
The only thing Nazi-like about Trump is his support of Israel committing a genocide against people who are in the way of Israel's Lebensraum.
-
-
The term “Nazi” has been overused so much, especially in US [identity] politics, that it’s losing (or has already lost) its meaning. When are we going to start calling elevator farts “genocide” and “nazism”? 🤷🏻♂️
If the outrage is based on the screenshot of the comment above, I’d say that this is a typical example of “Swiss neutrality” with a touch of “I don’t give a flying f*ck about US politics because I don’t live in the US.” I don’t see how that makes you a nazi??
I suspect I may be missing something here…
-
You missed the start of all this: https://lemmy.ml/post/24811284
-
-
Why would anyone believe the Democrats are not also Nazis? They just spearheaded a live-streamed genocide, and bypassed a law banning sending arms to Nazis so that they could send them billions in arms.
Both parties are Nazis. Both must be stopped. Stop playing this stupid game where they make you fight over which Nazi to follow.
-
The pathology of the reply is a psychosis
-
Can you clarify how calling a spade a spade is pathological or psychotic? Point me to the exact statement or sentence that made you think that.
-
lmao fuck off weirdo
-
-
TrUmP iS a NaZi
-
Calling Trump a Nazi is the same as calling an average Lemmy user a communist. Or calling Kamala a communist.
-
The hypocrisy of many calling Trump a Nazi is mind boggling.
As far as I can tell Trump can only be deemed a Nazi by association - he's not been going around spouting stuff about people's races making them superior or inferior to others like an ethno-Fascist and instead he's been mostly using traditional Fascist dog whistles (I.e. about the superiority of the Nation), but since he has indeed cultivated the support of neo-nazis and other ethno-Fascists in the US, he's associating with Nazis.
The hypocrisy comes because the most Nazi ideology around right now is Zionism - they're ethno-Fascists, claiming to represent a race, going on and on about the superiority of their race (calling it "the chose people") whilst being overtly racist about Arabs in general and even more so Palestinians who they call "human animals", i.e. subhumans whis is literally untermenschen - and, even more extreme, they're mass murdering them right now by the hundreds of thousands.
Anybody who here and now calls Trump a Nazi due to his association with ethno-Fascists but has previously been defending Biden, Harris and most of the Democrat party as not being Nazis all the while they were actively supporting with weapons the present day Nazis who were actively engaged in a genocide along racial lines, is a hypocrite.
Ditto anybody going around criticizing people who chose to neither vote Democrat nor Republican: it is absolutely understandable that when people only have the choice between two sets of Nazis, many chose "neither". After all, if one is a Nazi by supporting Nazis, then the Republicans supporting of Nazis makes them Nazis and giving support to the Nazis-Republicans (for example by voting for them) makes one a Nazi and exactly in the same way the Democrats supporting the present day Nazis makes them Nazis, so supporting Nazi-Democrats makes one a Nazi - anybody who does indeed believe people can become "Nazi by association" land does not want to be a Nazi, would refuse to vote for either Nazi-by-association party.
I truly respect those with the genuine principles and ideological consistency of calling both main American parties Nazis (as I said, if one thinks associated with Nazi = Nazi, then logically they are both Nazis) or at least Nazi-supporting, because they are.
It's only the political tribalists for whom one group of Nazi-supporters are Nazis but the other group of Nazi-supporters are not Nazis because the former is "them" and the other is "us" who are despicable hypocrites.
-
As far as I can tell Trump can only be deemed a Nazi by association - he’s not been going around spouting stuff about people’s races making them superior or inferior to others like an ethno-Fascist
Trump says immigrants are "poisoning the blood of our country" https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/trump-says-immigrants-are-poisoning-blood-country-biden-campaign-liken-rcna130141
-
That's traditional Fascism, which is all about the nation.
Nazism would be "Latinos have been poisoning our White blood", a whole different ball game and far, far more prone to extreme violence in the form of things like ethnic cleansing.
If you want to see how present day Nazi ideology manifests itself, look at Zionists: they claim to represent an ethnicity, that their ethnicity are a superior people ("the chosen people") and that the neighbouring ethnicity whose land they invaded and who they are currently mass murdering are less than human ("human animals").
I have yet to see Trump claiming to represent whites, saying that whites are superior and wanting to invade Latin American and murder the latinos because of deeming them subhuman.
Don't get me wrong, Trump absolutely is a Fascist. However directly so far he doesn't seem to be a Nazi and if he is a Nazi because of who he "sits with" then so are the Democrats since they all sit with the Zionists, the biggest and most murderous Nazi-like ideology around.
The expression Mango Mussolini fits Trump so well exactly because he's a Fascist in the same vein as Mussolini, not the same vein as Hitler.
-
-
Trump is a fascist bro
-
Trumps is indeed a traditional Fascist.
Nazis, however, are ethno-Fascists, a far worse kind of Fascist, whose ideology is anchored on racial supremacy and who are far more prone to extreme violence.
Although traditional Fascists are violent, they don't just go around mass murdering people because of their ethnicity, whilst ethno-Fascists most definitely do.
In the present day the biggest and most powerful group of ethno-Fascists - i.e. the present day Nazis - are Zionists, though there are also white supremacists who are also ethno-Fascists (hence also present day Nazis) even if their violent ethnic cleansing acts are not yet to the level of Zionists and they have different lists of superior and inferior races.
So if one genuinely believes that people can be deemed Nazis by associating with Nazis (specifically Nazi-like groups, since the National Socialist Party Of The German Worker doesn't exist anymore, so there aren't strictly speaking any Nazis anymore), then one must believe that by association Trump and most of their party are Nazis because of supporting both Zionists (whilst they are engaged in genocide-level ethnic cleansing, no less) and white supremacists, AND so are Biden, Harris and most of their party for supporting Zionists.
If on the other hand one believes people can only be deemed a Nazi if they espouse an ideology of racial supremacy and murderous expulsion or annihilation of one or more races they see as sub-human ("human animals", "untermenschen") - i.e. ethno-Fascism - then Trump is not a Nazi, "just" a traditional Fascist (i.e. Mussolini rather than Hitler) and by the same logic Biden and Harris are not Nazis.
Those people who use one definition of what makes one a Nazi for Trump and a different one for the Democrat leadership, are hypocrites.
-
-
If 11 people are sitting at a table with a known Nazi, chatting, enjoying themselves and having a great time, you have a table with 12 nazis.
-
That is an absolutely valid take (assuming you really believe the principle rather than merely parroting the slogan), which would mean that Trump, most of the Republicans, Biden, Harris and most of the Democrats are Nazis, as are anybody who supports them in any way form or shape including with a vote, because all are "sitting wit h Nazis" by supportingnthem, which explains why some people simply refused to vote for either party (as they didn't want support Nazis).
You have my total respect if you genuinely believe that as a principle and hence apply it equally to all 11 people sitting on that table with the Nazi.
If however you do not apply that rule equally to all 11 people, and say that only some (Trump) are Nazis for sitting down with modern day Nazis whilst others (Biden) are not Nazis for sitting down with modern day Nazis, then you're just a hypocrite using the word Nazi as a slogan.
Sadly a lot of people here are just jumping on the "let's call Trump a Nazi" bandwagon and do not apply the same rule that justifies caling Trump a Nazi, to those in their own party (which the rule would deem as Nazi since they too wilfully "sit with Nazis") or accept that many people did not vote for their party or the other party exactly because they sawnthosnwhonsupport modern day Nazis as being themselves Nazis (exaxtly as per the sentence you quoted) and hence refuse to not support such Nazis.
-
-
My dude. Dude. People are in here complaining about a fascist and all you have to contribute is "um, actually"ing them for using the name of the wrong fascist subtype? I think you've lost the plot, my dude.
-
I just hate when I'm hanging out with a bunch of racist gamers and people think I'm a racist gamer too. Sure, they may say some really inappropriate stuff I laugh at. And sure, I may not stop them when they're ruthlessly mocking some poor person of color, but I myself didn't do it so why would people think I'm a part of them? Everytime we go out to eat they treat all of us like we're terrible people, but really it's just them. I don't get it.
(This was sarcasm. I don't hang with racists but I didn't know how else to paint the picture clearly. Thats how your argument sounded though)
-
he’s not been going around spouting stuff about people’s races making them superior or inferior to others
you mean like this? https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-white-supremacy-racehorse-theory-1064928/
-
-
Oh FFS. Please stop abusing the word "Nazi" for every tiny transgression against 2025-era US progressive biases. Why do Americans do this - do you not learn anything at school? Words have meanings. Whatever the reason, to compare someone who isn't "fighting for a more just and equal society" to a "Nazi" just makes you look like a know-nothing ignoramus. It discredits whatever you have to say.
Response to the predictable justifications. Are you all aware that Putin calls democratic Ukraine "Nazi" for exactly the reasons you're all calling Trump one - namely, that it's a big powerful word? Yes, I'm aware of Trump's provocations and impulses. In other times Trump would probably have been more Mussolini than Berlusconi (i.e. a fascist). But "Nazi" is on a whole other level: it implies an apocalyptic, totalitarian, genocidal subversion of what most people consider civilization. This was actually a thing and it bears almost no connection to Trump's brand of chaotic reactionary populism. If you know anything about history then you should know this already. To insinuate that Trumpism is Nazism is insulting to intelligence.
-
Trump literally brags about studying Hitlers speeches. His father was a well known Nazi sympathizer.
Trump often uses Nazi rhetoric and sologans. The examples of these are extremely numerous and no other broadly supported American politician has been caught as often, all but assuring dog-whistling.
Neo-Nazis openly back Trump and are in his inner circle. They've been caught with swastika flags and tattoos, SS tattoos, 88 tattoos, often ending merchandise on Trump's own websites with $X.88, lifting their arms in a Sig Heil at rallies, etc etc etc etc.
Trump has been asked to condemn his Neo-Nazi supporters and their racial violence, and he refuses.
If it quacks like a Nazi, acts like a Nazi, and literally claims to be a Nazi- we should call it a Nazi.
-
Adding to that -
-
And people salute to it like a Nazi...
-
Sure, the recesses of Trump's mind seem to be a pretty dark place. But the guy was already president and we all know that whatever happens next, it's not going to look anything like Germany circa 1938. You know it, I know, we all all know it. America has strong institutions, Trump is fat and lazy, and most of his followers are not even "national conservatives" let alone fascists or (ridiculously) Nazis. They're people who voted against inflation and immigration. In the meantime, by hystericizing the language like this, you're simultaneously making fools of yourselves and alienating people who you might otherwise persuade.
-
-
So calling minorities "vermin" and making up shit about immigrants eating the pets of US citizens is a "tiny transgression"? No, that is text book nazi propaganda fueled by hate and endorsed by idiots.
-
To quote the incoming administration, "We need a genocide of trans people."
The LGBT community was one of the first groups in the camps. Alongside the immigrants and socialists. You know the famous picture of the Nazis burning books? Those books were records from the German Center for Sexual Wellness, a repository of knowledge about sex and sexuality, and the first known medical facility to treat transgender people using hormone therapy in the 1910s.
Maybe you should learn history before saying something like a know-nothing ignoramus and discrediting whatever you have to say. But go off about "progressive biases." To also quote a Republican complaint, "Reality has a left-leaning bias." Is that what you think, too?
-
He is flirting with the alt-right. And some movements „dabble“ in nazi memorabilia to mention the most flagrant connections to it or his failure to even outright criticize Hitler.
I know that the word Nazi is really triggering but its also true in this case. He is not said to be a Nazi himself but flirting with them. Which is factual and not really discrediting per se.
If the only argument here is: Nazis can only be German and its a historical term that cannot ever be applied to other nations I think that belies how everyone consistently uses language in a not strict academic sense and even then there are academic papers linking him to Nazism and right ideology in general.
And your other insinuation of saying that „anyone who isnt working for a more just and equal society“ would be applicable to Trump, his campaign and the things he platforms falls flat if you look at what his recurring talking points are. Sure let’s use the word Nazi less bit of course in association with Trump it gets used for very clear, explicit parallels. But I don’t think you really care about that if you try to frame everything as tiny transgressions by people who are just not „fighting for a more just and equal society“. If Nazi is too strong a word, what would you propose? And is the use of it logically a valid reason to discredit an opinion? On an open source platform talking about people who have English as a second or third language?
-
If Nazi is too strong a word, what would you propose?
Something that describes the phenomenon you're talking about. "Nationalist", "national populist", "rightwing populist", "hard-right reactionary", etc etc. There are lots. No, they don't get your blood pumping like "Nazi", but the benefit is that they save you from looking like an ignorant extremist and might also help you be more persuasive.
-
-
[...] to compare someone who isn't "fighting for a more just and equal society" to a "Nazi" just makes you look like a know-nothing ignoramus.
(emphasis mine)
What an interesting way to describe the technocratic class that is aligning themselves with Trump. Are you up for a promotion at a FAANG, maybe? For recently rolling back some DEI policies perhaps?
-
Are you trying to be wrong on every thread about this you post in? To follow up on @EldritchFeminity point about the LGBT community, one of the other groups first targeted by the Nazi's were the disabled. Trump is on record as stating (as per his nephew) that disabled people should 'just die' and has openly mocked disabled people. His views are so close to 1930s/40s era Nazism as to make no real difference.
-
Ok, let's agree on "Nazi Sympathiser"
-
327 comments