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MoogleMaestro @lemmy.zip

Thoughts Around KBin's Current Status and the Importance of Community Migration Features

So my understanding is that KBin.social is now gone from the internet for the indefinite future. Ernest, who meant well, simply could not keep up with the demands due to his personal life and the development issues that were cropping up all the time. Let me get ahead of any replies and say that it's perfectly reasonable to shut down a large instance if it's taking up your time and money or becoming a burden on your personal life. Personal health should always come before a bunch of random dudes/dudettes that happen to be on the internet. Additionally, it's a good reminder that developing software while also maintaining a large instance probably isn't a good idea and that you should probably make sure you're taking a reasonable amount of work off your plate.

But I can't help but feel like there's another story here regarding the potential risks of the fediverse: Admins need to be ready to migrate ownership to others who are willing to take on the financial or user account management burden. Additionally, there should be a larger focus on community migration features for more flexibility to sudden instance losses.

I managed a community that had partially migrated to Kbin after the great reddit exodus last year and managed to continue to admin said community up until a few months ago when Kbin's service became very very spotty. I understood Ernests' particular dilemma so I was willing to give it a month or two to figure out what actions I needed to take to migrate the community again, but enough time has passed now that I am no longer confident that Kbin will return to even a read-only, moderator only state. This means that whatever community I had there is now completely out of my control and the users might not know why posts have stopped entirely. Basically, I have to start from the ground up which might be OK but I'm not particularly keen to start it all over right now.

So this is basically a plea to the admins out there: If you are having trouble with management and need to stop, could you please give the community a vocal heads up so that whatever subcommunity happens to form on your site has some means of migrating? Additionally, software out there should have more policies for community migration, whether that's lemmy or mbin, as we never know when it might be necessary to migrate to a new domain under different ownership. Lastly, if there's an option to give ownership to others in the community, please consider it as it would really help the fediverse if admins were willing to migrate domain and databases to other users who are willing to carry the torch.

That's it from me for now, thanks for reading this minor rant. 🤙

135 comments

  • kbin was the perfect storm of single developer and reddit migration. honestly, ernest could have saved everyone a lot of time and effort had they listened to the community 10 months ago when they were begging for more involvement.

    account portability is a big topic in 'verse developer circles. i think it is inevitable at some point, but its highly complex and will take some serious ActivityPub cooperation and standards. that we utilize addresses as names for both users and content is a big nut in the works.

    in the meantime, users should focus on community organized and operated instances. a shining example of this is beehaw.org

    also please dont forget this ecosystem is still in its infancy. the kinks, they are being worked on but its still the bleeding edge of social media tech, which can be painful.

    • account portability is a big topic in 'verse developer circles

      I think community portability is a way bigger deal, at least here

      I think if communities could have aliases/mirrors, that would mostly fix the problem without completely rewriting all of the ActivityPub spec?

      edit: I did find this issue on their Github https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/3100

      and: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/4619

      • the difference between community <-> user are less than youd think. the hurdles are nearly identical.

        moving user or community data from one domain/server to another is not hard. getting that change to propagate across fediverse and be functional is fucking hard.

      • I think community portability is a way bigger deal, at least here

        Very true. And the aliases/mirrors idea might work well. Where content doesn't have to be moved or the addressing problem fixed, instead people can just change their subscription and the mirror community have the ability to treat itself as the primary (and not a mirror). This feels viable to me!

  • You’ve highlighted what is definitely a major problem with the Fediverse - all it takes for you to lose all the hard work you’ve done building up a community is the person running a server to pull the plug with no warning.

    I loved kbin social - I started out on there, and only moved over to lemmy because it was getting too erratic and it was impossible to find out what was going on. Being able to move is a great thing, but if you miss your window to move, you’re SOL.

    Admins definitely need to be willing and able to have the reins over to someone else if it’s getting to be too much, or to at least let people know in advance if they’re planning to shut down. Communication is key.

  • 60 days notice is standard on Mastodon, it would be nice to see instances commit to that.

  • The idea of migration and data preservation has been a topic since day one, since that's a big reason why so many moved to the Fediverse. I still haven't seen a perfect solution, and maybe there isn't one. Perhaps just having a lot of redundancy (oh no, reposts!) is the only true way of protecting posts for as long as possible, and even then...

    Ernest started things rolling with something that probably wasn't ready for the demand, but it was there when the time came. That others forked off from it and kept it going is the bright spot here. I appreciate Lemmy and even have an account from the first days, but I like the kbin/mbin setup better so that's where I sit.

  • But I can’t help but feel like there’s another story here regarding the potential risks of the fediverse:

    It's perhaps the most important story going forward. Rexxit was only a year ago and a lot of instances are gone already. If that's not sorted out people will start to wonder why they should invest time and effort in an instance or community.

    Admins need to be ready to migrate ownership to others who are willing to take on the financial or user account management burden.

    It was touch-and-go for us on feddit.uk but it all worked out right at the last minute and we've been working hard to ensure that everything is set up so that the instance's future is assured for as long as the users want it. Here is our most recent financial report.

    A lot of problems could be avoided by planning ahead - never rely on a single Admin and make sure that funding is in place (and not being run from any one individual's bank account - why Open Collective is very good for this). That way, if one Admin has to step down (and you are less likely to burn out if you can spread the load) then there are already others who can pick up the slack.

  • At the moment of writing this there are 90 comments, none of them even considering the idea that this whole Fediverse thing is never going to be a worthy contender for a healthier Internet if we keep treating it as some hippie, amateur, "community is all you need" project.

    "You get what you pay for" is still true. If the thousands of people using kbin contributed with $10/year, you can bet that the developer wouldn't be in this situation.

    We might come up with all the schemes to try to mitigate the issues and warts of federated software, but it would help a lot more if most people understood that software developers and instance admins are still professionals who still have ambitions and would like to be paid for their work accordingly.

    • Do Mastodon users have to pay their admins? Iirc most of them still rely on donations

      • Mastodon is not any better. Plenty of stories of instances that disappeared, admins made amateur mistakes and lost databases, moderators burn out and leave everything...

        Even the "successful" donation-based instances make enough money to cover only the costs of hosting and the admins and moderators are expected to do all the grunt work out of "love for their community". It's simply not sustainable, and it will become even less so with all the upcoming regulations and controls around social media.

        Zuckerberg will use and abuse of regulatory capture to make it impossible to run an instance without significant costs. If we don't "suit up" and professionalize the Fediverse quickly, we will have no other choice but to put all social media infrastructure on his hands.

  • I'm going to say it, community migration is probably more important than user migration features. While there is no official user migration there are scripts to carry over preferences and subscriptions to a new instance. Easy peesy. But community migration is a much more important concept if only because communities are what make Lemmy great.

    Mirroring content is probably easy enough, but I don't know if we'll ever see a way for the ActivityPub spec to say "This Group is actually now this Group" or if that would even be a good idea.

    • “This Group is actually now this Group”

      Locking the previous community with a post to the new one usually works quite well

  • That’s unfortunate. I switched to kbin from Reddit and really liked the community feel. That’s what sold me on the fediverse. But seeing as there wasn’t SSO across from kbin to lemmy, I had a second account for the latter as there was a lot more activity on lemmy and I used kbin less and less as the site spent more time broken.

    I agree there should be some more formal way of letting community operators know their instance is going away. However, the fediverse not having any way of enforcing any such rule, means we’re still looking at individual whim determining whether or not an instance will simply disappear overnight or give users time to move.

  • Admins need to be ready to migrate ownership to others who are willing to take on the financial or user account management burden.

    Yes. Even more, any administration (and frankly community mod team too) needs to have backups in place from the start. Or at least very early.

    It's not hard. Find someone willing to be a co-admin or mod. If you can't do that ... then you're not actually in a position to be an admin (or even a mod).

  • I really miss kbin.. 😔(no hard feelings, I genuinely wish Ernest the best and hope he makes a comeback)

    I actually tried migrating my account from there before the major issues, as a backup, but realised it didn't back up my blocked lists, which are much harder for me to recreate than my subscribed list and settings are, so decided to wait and see if anyone improved the migration tools.

    Then it became too late, and I had to start from scratch, and am now regretting the instance I chose, and have not yet had the brain space to check out the other kbin/mbin instances and find a new one I like. Until then I'm reluctant to participate.

    If anything, the last couple of months, with kbin dying and realising how uncomfortable I am on an instance run by people who have expectations from their users I fundamentally disagree with, have made me want to start my own private kbin/mbin instance for myself so that I don't end up in either situation again, but I don't know that it's something I can take on, having no programming knowledge or any experience with anything like that.

    So yes, I agree with you, for more than the reasons you've provided, and I hope we, as a general community use these developments to learn and improve.

  • Yeah I've pretty much accepted that kbin.social is just gone at this point. I also owned a community there (/m/ai). I didn't have any spammers appear, but it eventually just died since spam ruined the rest of the instance.

    The signs were already there months in advance, but most of us stayed on the instance in hopes that the dev would eventually take up one of the offers to help maintain the instance. Was fun while it lasted, and was the best alternative to Reddit for sure as a software. I don't even know how Ernest kept up with development during the initial Reddit exodus lol.

    Honestly, I'm not impressed with Lemmy so far and I don't really vibe with mbin for personal reasons even though the software is great.

    This whole kbin story has just pointed out a lot of flaws in the Fediverse as a whole for me. I still like the idea, but the execution needs improvement.

135 comments