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Are modern Final Fantasy games bad?

I started at 7 and looked forwards to every iteration of the series since then, 8 was more of the same with a weird story, 9 was cute and a good throwback, then I went back to 6 which was a masterpiece, 10 was emotional and beautiful, 12 wasn't great but had cool worldbuilding, being a FFT fan.

Here is when it starts to diverge a little. I would call this the start of 'modern' FFs

I actually liked 13's battle system, it worked out many of the kinks of old systems, like healing after each battle and focused on each interaction as a puzzle to be solved. The story was OK and then the sequels kinda tried to do something different. Lightning Returns had terrible reviews, possible due to the time limit, which is why I never tried it

14 had a bad start and did a reboot to become a well loved MMO, but starting in the first world is such a chore with outdated MMO mechanics as someone who started later

15 was ambitious and unfinished. the first time I was truly disappointed in a FF game.

Then, we have the FF7 remakes, which are amazing, it seems that all the effort, the team members who have passion all signed up for this and it shows, but there's a strong nostalgia bias to it.

Now reading the reviews for 16, it seems there's no real reason to give it a try. At this point, I'm not sure what comes after the final FF7 game, is there a way to make 17 something people would care about?

46 comments

  • X is around the time FF lost it's main architect, Sakaguchi (technically sooner , but dev times I imagine it overlapped). Guys a class act that was with them since the beginning, but he started his own company after a falling out with the direction SE brass wanted to take things. He was the one pushing to always have life and death as main themes and kept certain other producers in line.

    I always recall an anecdote on FF7, as him, Kitase and Nomura were working out story. Sakaguchi required a meaningful death in the plot. Kitase (who we can thank for FF6s second half) suggested the whole cast die except one who the player chooses. Nomura talked them down from that. FF7 was his baby (so much so that he's the character designer and artist), hence why he's so present on the remake. That said, they kept each other in check and Nomura gets really weird ideas (KHs being his lead, for example).

    After Sakaguchi departure, 11 was modeled after EverQuest and had a newish team, 12 was written most by FFT scenario team but had a change mid devolpment midway (the SE brass wanted a plucky young protag, Vaan was late development), 13 was so overbudget that they had to make sequels to recoup costs, 14 1.0 was mostly old guard 11 people with no idea about optimization, 14 2.0 was Yoshida learning from WoW success (flaws and all) but adding "FF theme park" plus a great writing staff, 15... similar to 12 in changes mid production, but iirc it was the SE brass shoehorning bad ideas and plot required DLC, and 16 is Yoshida and his core team making a pretty solid ARPG but with some tedium due to his MMO roots (and if you like 7R you'd probably be ok with 16).

    Anyone can like or dislike a game, so I'm just giving you the long range of production issues that are objectively damaging the experience. It's ok to like flawed games. I know an unhealthy amount of video game industry lore, and the biggest thing I can't even say because of an NDA. lol

    (Bonus fun fact, FF6 was meant to end at the halfway point but was so ahead of schedule and funds they went ahead and created the second half. It's my favorite FF lol)

  • I understand your sentiment...

    I havent played 16 either but i also see almost no appeal. Its clearly an action rpg at heart and that isnt what Final Fantasy was originally about.

    The depth of story people expect in the modern era is as high as it was when ff7 ot ff10 released, the only issue is that expectations for production value have gone through the roof.

    If anything is holding square enix back from creating the next ff masterpiece, its their commitment to high quality visuals with extremely diverse gameplay, and unfortunately that is what they have groomed their fans to expect. This is why the ff7 remake is being done over 3 games, to get that much story into the visual and gameplay depth people expect, it would probably dilute the experience to cram it into 1 5-year production. That and they make money off 3 games instead of 1 lol

    What would salvage ff17 in the eyes of a classic ff fan would be to cut down production value and variations of gameplay. SE just needs to boil in good turn based combat, then focus on creating a beautifully unique setting with deep, engaging lore. That is what was so powerful about ff7 and ff10 imo. A couple minigame distractions would be good, but the amount of effort that went into the minigames in ff7 rebirth is just ridiculous.

    It would be nice to see a spinoff series that focused on this at least... We can dream.

  • For the record, I was also immensely disappointed in XV. However I loved XVI. The ability cool downs in particular felt very ATB-like to me and I loved the customization. The story is very good and one of my favorites from storytelling perspective (in other words, HOW the story is told).

    I also really liked the combat and exploration of XII. And the Zodiac version makes it even better.

    I thought XIII had some of the best moments in the series.

    XIII-2 perfected the gameplay from XIII and made storytelling and exploration "fun"

    XIII: LR is very experimental and has some of my favorite action-based combat in the series.

    World of Final Fantasy is a lot of fun if you want turn based monster capturing.

    Stranger of Paradise is a blast. My only issue with it is that you can't really overpower by leveling up. I hit a hard wall with a boss and the only way through is "get good".

    I didn't get much into Type-O but I keep meaning to.

    Theatrhythm exists. I love it, but it's also it's own thing entirely.

  • I've played and beat every single numbered FF title except for 11.

    The new ones are good, just different. No one likes every single FF game, everyone has a favorite they associate with the time they jumped into the series, and then all others end up colored by how similar or different they seem to that ideal one.

    Even the people in this thread bashing FF13 would probably be surprised to know how many people out there think it's the best (I know, a shock).

    I can share my own opinions on which games are good or bad, but it's ultimately meaningless unless your tastes happen to coincide identically to my own.

    And besides, everybody knows 9 is the best, without question.

    • Fuck it, here's my hot takes:

      1. Short, but feels just the right length, I appreciate how it seems to borrow more strongly from the D&D roots the series developed from (e.g. spell slots instead of MP)
      2. First game with defined characters. Enjoyed it but the Elder Scrolls style of leveling through ability use made it feel like you have to play a certain way and I probably grinded more than I needed to by the end.
      3. It's aight. First game with jobs. Eternal Wind is a good track.
      4. First game with an ambitious story. Thought it was good, but a bit overhyped.
      5. The best of the 2D games and I won't hear anyone say otherwise.
      6. I liked the large cast of characters in the first half. I didn't like having to re-get the cast of characters in the second half. Good, but also overhyped.
      7. Most ambitious transition between games, going from 2D to 3D. I know it's the darling of the franchise, and it is undoubtably good and packed with content, but I feel it has aged the worst of all of them.
      8. I can see why it is some people's favorite and a lot of other people's least favorite. Unbelievably charming cast. Good ideas with the combat but could have used another pass.
      9. The first FF game I played. Amazing cast of characters and an amazing story. Tetra Master is bullshit. Debatably not a JRPG by some definitions.
      10. Love the game to death, yet hate Tidus so much. I couldn't get into Blitzball.
      11. Does the current Alliance Raid series in 14 count?
      12. The Gambit System ruined the rest of the franchise for a lot of people (interpret that however you like).
      13. Better than people give it credit for. Not without flaws but a lot of the hate feels more like folks never got out of the tutorial. Also, the tutorial is two thirds of the entire game.
      14. Best story of the entire FF series, but also the one that you'll need to work the hardest to get through. Also, did you know that thereisafreetrialuptolevel70withnorestrictionsonplaytimeincludingtheawardwinningHeavenswardandStormbloodexpansions?
      15. A fun game with a good story and cast of characters, but the missing chunks of the game that it was supposed to be are apparent.
      16. Didn't like it as much as I thought I would but still found it to be overall enjoyable. Heaviest story an FF game has ever told (including Tactics). Wish there was more of a "party" but Clive and Ben Starr's voice work are too good not to love.

      Bonus 7R hot takes:

      • Remake: Somehow they turned a 4-hour chunk of the original game into an enjoyable 40-hour story without it feeling too drawn out. Great gameplay. Plot changes actually helped me appreciate the sequel more. Anyone worried about the game being a money grab sold in 3 parts doesn't know what they're missing.
      • Rebirth: Despite people's apprehensions about plot changes, it manages to continue being incredibly faithful to the original story, with some tasteful additions. Probably the most uncompromising AAA game I've ever played. Can't help but love it, and am really interested to see where part 3 goes.

    • Some of us have favorites that arrived well after starting the series.

      That said, I feel the need to tap the sign: if anyone thinks mainline Final Fantasy games are bad, they need to play some genuinely bad games for perspective. There are plenty available even within the genre: Beyond the Beyond, Ancient Roman, Lunar Dragon Song, etc.

      The series is constantly reinventing itself, and that's going to leave people behind. SQEX still manages to retain consistently high production quality despite that.

  • By doing these kinds of experiments, they hone in on what people want. They know it's closer to FF7 remake than it is to FF16, and they know that the game must not have exclusivity to any platform no matter what.

  • I play FFXIV. I'll break it down by expansions, but it's the one that didn't follow the general downwards trend so much.

    1.0 - trash. They couldn't figure out how to work together. One guy spends forever making the best looking water wheel ever, in the background, that you never interact with. It's too graphically intensive, and flows the wrong way from the water. It doesn't match the building it's attached to. Meanwhile, they forget to add roads towards main cities. It's an unplayable mess. It's literally unplayable, as they killed it off to replace it with:

    2.0, A Realm Reborn - they really fixed it under one guy's leadership. It's playable, and works. It's outdated somewhat today, but has a lot of moral grey areas and twists. There's a lot of running around and time wasting, which was common back then.

    Heavenward - they made a great story. It's one of the best expansions. Streamlined and faster. No needless "talk to 5 villagers" quests like previously.

    Stormblood - not as great. There's a lot of setup they use later. The world building is really great, though. Some of the best looking areas.

    Shadowbringers - the best expansion they've ever made. Perfectly balanced world building and characters, and story. This is peak FF, with the best music as well. Probably because they can ditch much of the old A Realm Reborn story.

    Endwalker - ties it all together. The story leads up to "death is inevitable for everything that has ever lived, so just die now" kind of depression hopelessness that you wonder how they'll get out of it. Well, because it's Japanese and FF, it's the power of friendship that saves the day. But, this really feels like the culmination of everything they've learned in the previous expansions.

    Dawntrail - this is the downward slide. They force you into a role to support someone for ruler that is almost slapstick bad. Characters don't make logical choices. The theme is all over the place and can't decide what it wants to be. Many people say to stop at endwalker, but we'll see how the next expansion goes, which is years away.

    There's plenty to say about the game otherwise, but the general thought is that they're gradually cutting corners, taking longer, and under delivering as they're stretched too thin. They're feeling the same pressure everyone else in the world is - not enough money. Which is crazy, because FFXIV is THE game keeping Square Enix alive.

  • If you kind of liked the XIII games, I highly recommend Lighting Returns. Time limits make me deeply anxious but that game's timer is VERY generous, especially because you can stop time pretty much forever. I 100% my first run in, like, four days out of thirteen.

    The story is wacky as hell (I honestly didn't care much after XIII-2), but gameplay's solid and exploration is fun.

    As for the last question, I think that they should go back to their roots. They pivoted away from the JRPG genre with each title, but recent successes from similar games (such as Persona 5 in the AAA department, and Sea of Stars in the indie category) proved that people still crave a more traditional turn-based system.

  • I don't really care for them anymore. I think they're still very well crafted games from a passionate team, but I haven't really felt great about a FF game since 10. Ignoring the MMOs:

    12 was decent but the story was pretty dry in the first half and Vaan was just not a compelling protagonist at all.

    13 was reasonably fun to play after finding the "rhythm" I think they intended from the combat, but I never loved the story or any of the characters aside from Sazh.

    15 had a lot of potential in the story, I actually liked the "dudes on a road trip" concept, but that awful sword hanging mechanic was always so unreliable that it eventually killed my progress in its tracks.

    After that, I skipped 16 entirely.

    The 7 sequel was actually really good, but everything I liked about it came directly from the original or built on top of it in a transparent way. The spooky ghosts and action combat were changes I strongly disliked and endured just to see the extended original story, but I thought they were huge steps back. It was a very good game that constantly had me wishing they just stuck to expanding the original story which is plenty convoluted on its own.

    I still haven't played the 7 sequel part 2, but I expect I'll feel pretty much the same - in awe of the world and expanded story but constantly annoyed by spooky ghosts and mediocre action combat.

    I really think the 7 sequels show that the Final Fantasy franchise has a place in the modern JRPG scene, but they would benefit from a return to form. I'd love to see the next FF game sporting a fast paced Persona-style turn based combat system combined with maybe an Akira-style dystopian techno-futuristic setting. All the parts are in there somewhere, they just need to figure out how to put them together in the right order.

  • 13-3 and 14 1.0 are complete trash imo. And some of that era leaked into 15, sending it into development hell. But aside from that, no. They're held to a higher standard so a FF that's only a B+ is seen as a complete failure and the internet spends a decade hateposting about it.

  • 14 is going down hill. I have played it for many years and cleared a lot of the harder content. It's a lot of rinse, wash, repeat. 15 had some beautiful graphics but it dropped the ball in the open world. 16s battle system was fun. The story was good. Had a decent Gothic roots of fantasy in there.

  • I've played 7, 8, 7 Remake and Rebirth, and 16. I love each and every one of them.

    16 can be tough sometimes just with how much cruelty exists in the world that the game is set in. Otherwise I find it quite excellent. The combat is really fun and varied, music is really good, characters are deep and complicated, visual design and graphics are really really good.

    7 Remake and Rebirth are outstanding. I just put 150 hours into Rebirth since it launched recently on PC. I played the original back in the day and loved it back then, the nostalgia that remake and rebirth give me is like a highly refined illicit drug and it's great. Nanaki and Cosmo Canyon are some of my most beloved gaming memories ever.

    I barely remember 8 but I played it a ton as a teenager, still have a bunch of music from it (great salt lake music still sends chills down my spine!)

  • Aside from 1-10, the only other FF games I have played were, 11, the demo for 13, the one where you're a pop singer band with a car (I never remember if it was 15 or 16; I don't own it myself) and the FF7 remake.

    11 was an MMO and basically just FF skinned EverQuest. I liked it tho.

    13 fucking sucked hard and is why I stopped caring about FF.

    15/16 was unrecognizable as Final Fantasy to me, as a fan of the series since the OG.

    The FF7 remake is pretty good. Doesn't hit the nostalgia though. They've changed too much; but I actually do like these changes, because it's actually hella meta. The combat is actually fun, too. That's one thing even in the OGs I always thought was it's lowest point; only boss fights were interesting, and even then they weren't necessarily fun due to the turn and menu-based combat.

46 comments