Passwords have problems, but passkeys have more

The problem with passkeys is that they're essentially a halfway house to a password manager, but tied to a specific platform in ways that aren't obvious to a user at all, and liable to easily leave them unable to access of their accounts.

Agreed, in its current state I wouldn‘t teach someone less technically inclined to solely rely on passkeys saved by the default platform if you plan on using different devices, it just leads to trouble.

If you're going to teach someone how to deal with all of this, and all the potential pitfalls that might lock them out of your service, you almost might as well teach them how to use a cross-platform password manager

Using a password manager is still the solution. Pick one where your passkeys can be safed and most of the authors problems are solved.

The only thing that remains is how to log in if you are not on a device you own (and don’t have the password manager). The author mentions it: the QR code approach for cross device sign in. I don’t think it’s cumbersome, i think it’s actually a great and foolproof way to sign in. I have yet to find a website which implements it though (Edit: Might be my specific setup‘s fault).

- Bitwarden just announced a consortium with Apple, Google, 1Password, etc to create a secure import/export format for credentials; spurred by the need for passkeys to be portable between password managers (but also works for passwords/other credential types)
QR codes are good 50% of the time; when you're trying to log in on a pc.
The reverse case is extremely annoying
- Could you elaborate? I am assuming that everbody would have the password manager on their mobile phone with them, which is used to scan the qr code. I think that’s a reasonable assumption.
  I agree that if you wanted the pc to act as the authenticator (device that has the passkey) it wouldn’t work with qr codes. But is that a usecase that happens at all for average people? Does anyone login to a mobile device that you don’t own, and you only have your pc nearby and not your own mobile phone?
It could be your browser / system that is struggling to show it. When I use my work computer and Microsoft edge, I don’t think I’ve ever had a situation where the QR code didn’t work. When I use flatpak’d Firefox on my Linux laptop, I experience more trouble, probably because of the sandboxing.
- According to the device support page i should be ok, but yeah there might be something weird going on.

Yeah I didn't understand passkeys. I'm like why is my browser asking to store them? What if I'm using another browser? Why is my password manager fighting with my browser on where to store this passkey?

I felt so uneasy.

So I decided not to use passkeys for now until I understood what's going on.

Passkeys are unique cert pairs for each site. The site gets the public key, you keep the private to login under your account. The site never stores your private key.
To store them simply, turn off your browsers password/passkey storage. Store them in your password manager along with other sites passwords.
- Sounds similar to the SSL stuff, like for GitHub and stuff. I guess the preference in that case would be my password manager as it stores my password already.
  Perhaps it's best I pay for Bitwarden premium now and use those hardware keys people are recommending.
  Also thanks!
I'm like why is my browser asking to store them? What if I'm using another browser? Why is my password manager fighting with my browser on where to store this passkey?
The answer to all of these questions is “For the exact same reason they do all these same things with passwords”
Think of a passkey as a very, very complex password that is stored on your device (or in a password manager) that you can use to log into websites with without ever having to know what the password is, and it’s never stored on the site you’re logging into, even in a hashed format, so it literally can’t be exposed in a breach.
It’s the exact same technology you use to connect securely to every website you visit, except used in reverse.

His "just use email" like that isn't very obviously worse in every respect kind of undermines his whole premise.

His whole premise is undermined by him not doing any research on the topic before deciding to write a blog post. Proton passkeys for instance, are cross platform, and the ability to transfer passkeys between devices is one of the features being worked on by the other providers.
- Yeah... Why are articles like this being upvoted... I expected better from lemmy
- Proton passkeys are stored in a password manager, which he specifically calls out.
  If you have a password managed and know how to use it, you're already a lot less susceptible to the problem that passkeys are trying to solve.
  Personally, I think passkeys are great for tech-savvy users, but I wouldn't dream of recommending them to non tech-savvy people. Password managers are still used by the minority, that needs to be fixed before passkeys are useful.
It’s because he has an email company he wants you to use for $100 a year lol

This article is FUD from big password.

If we all had big passwords, this may not have been an issue to begin with lol
- Probably, but the real problem has been database dumps for a good number of years now. Maybe this thing fixes that?

I have never understood the goal of passkeys. Skipping 2FA seems like a security issue and storing passkeys in my password manager is like storing 2FA keys on it: the whole point is that I should check on 2 devices, and my phone is probably the most secure of them all.

That was my take too.
Security training was something you know, and something you have.
You know your password, and you have a device that can receive another way to authorize. So you can lose one and not be compromised.
Passkeys just skip that "something you have". So you lose your password manager, and they have both?
- I think you mean that passkeys potentially skip the something you know. The something you have is the private key for the passkey (however it's stored, in hardware or in software, etc). Unlocking access to that private key is done on the local device such as through a PIN/password or biometrics and gives you the second factor of something you know or something you are. If you have your password manager vault set to automatically unlock on your device for example, then that skips the something you know part.
I find phones the least secure devices simply because of how likely they are to be damaged or stolen
- More than that. You probably use them in public, where there are tons of cameras. So if you forget you phone in say a restaurant, odds are they have video of you unlocking it.
  And let's not forget all the poorly secured wifi access points people commonly connect to...
It's not skipping MFA cos some media can provide more than one factor.
E.g. YubiKey 5 (presence of the device) + PIN (knowledge of some credentials) = 2 factors
Or YubiKey Bio (presence of the device) + fingerprint (biological proof of ownership) = 2 factors
And actually unless you use one password manager database for passwords, another one for OTPs, and never unlock them together on the same machine, it's not MFA but 1FA. Cos if you have them all at one place, you can only provide one factor (knowledge of the manager password, unless you program an FPGA to simulate a write only store or something).
I love storing 2FA in the password manager, and I use a separate 2FA to unlock the password manager
- I imagine you keep your password manager unlocked, or as not requiring 2FA on trusted devices then? Re entering 2FA each session is annoying
  You still have the treat of viruses or similar. If someone gets access on your device while the password manager is unlocked (ex: some trojan on your computer), you’re completely cooked. If anything it makes it worse than not having 2FA at all.
  If you can access your password manager without using 2FA on your phone and have the built in phone biometrics to open it like phone pin, finger or face, someone stealing your phone can do some damage. (Well, the same stands for a regular 2FA app, but meh, I just don’t see an improvement)
It feels like the goal is to get you married to one platform, and the big players are happy for that to be them. As someone who's used Keepass for over a decade, the whole thing seems less flexible than my janky open source setup, and certainly worse than a paid/for profit solution like bitwarden.
OTP in the password manager Private key pkcs#12 in a contactless smart card plus maybe a pin if I'm feeling fancy

There was a related news recently, that bitwarden and other pw managers will be able to sync passkeys between devices. Won't that solve these issues?

My thoughts exactly. I use Bitwarden and passkeys sync flawlessly between my devices. Password managers tied to a a device or ecosystem are stupid and people shouldn’t use them. This is true whether you use passwords or passkeys.
That said, we cannot blame users for bad UX that some platforms and some devs provide.
- Isn't your password manager tied to an ecosystem with Bitwarden ?
  I'm surprised people trust third parties to hold their passwords.
  Wasn't there multiple password managers that got powned over the years ?
  If you can sync Passwords you are also more exposed than some unhandy secure local password storage.
- Bitwarden is not usable on Linux desktop, keeps asking for password. The password can't be too short, so it takes some time to type it in. I turn off my computer when it's not needed, so I would just need to type in the password when I turn it on again.
  Anyone have a better solution?
Not in all situations. And in a way a user will not be aware of. The service or website can define what type of passkey is allowed (based in attestation). You may not be able to acutally use your "movable" keys because someone else decided so. You will not notice this until you actually face such a service. And when that happens, you can be sure that the average user will not understand what ia going on. Not all passkeys are equal, but that fact is hidden from the user.
I remain hopeful. Initially, when Keypass wanted to include a simple export option there was talk of banning them from using Passkeys.
It does*.
However when I'm trying to login with a passkey in my mobile browser, Bitwarden prompt isn't showing up. I don't know what's wrong.
- If you're using Android it's more than likely just an OS issue. I have had a lot of issues on my phone trying to use passkeys let alone just the password manager.
- I've found on my android phone that the bitwarden prompt comes up more reliably if I tap on the password field instead of the username field.
- That’s weird, it works for me. Is there something you need to click on the mobile site?

Just. Use. A. Fucking. Password. Manager.

It isn't hard. People act like getting users to remember one password isn't how it's done already anyway. At least TFAing a password manager is way fucking easier than hoping every service they log into with "password123" has it's own TFA. And since nearly every site uses shit TFA like a text or email message, it's even better since they can use a Yubikey very easily instead.

Passkeys are a solution looking for a problem that hasn't been solved already, and doing it badly.

Yes, use a password manager to store your passkeys.
Passkeys are a solution looking for a problem that hasn't been solved already, and doing it badly.
You say that and then
hoping every service they log into with "password123" has it's own TFA. And since nearly every site uses shit TFA like a text or email message
That’s literally a problem passkeys solve and password managers don’t lol
- I make the assumption people are using the password managers like they should, which is generating unique, complex passwords, which is kinda the point. Once you hit a certain number of characters on a random password, you might as well not try. And passkeys don't solve any sort of MFA problem, same as passwords.
  And tell me something, do you realize how cunty you come off when you end a comment with "lol"?
You're looking at this from the perspective of an educated end user. You're pretty secure already from some common attack vectors. You're also in the minority. Passkeys are largely about the health of the entire ecosystem. Not only do they protect against credentials being stolen, they also protect against phishing attacks because identity verification is built in. That is of huge value if you're administering a site. Yes if everyone used a password manager there would be less value, but only about a third of users do that. And as an admin you can't just say "well that guy got phished but it's his own fault for not using a password manager."
- Password managers have only really taken off in the last half-decade, so one-third is kind of to be expected. I know they've been around a long time, but major adoption has been recent.
  Passkeys will take a while to get wide adoption as well, especially with syncing problems that we've seen.
Password managers are too hard for the boomers
I have a sub to dashlane that came with ten additional subs and despite trying to literally give them away to family and friends and you'd think I was trying to pull teeth.

Passkeys are also weirdly complex for the end user too, you can't just share passkey between your devices like you can with a password, there's very little to no documentation about what you do if you lose access to the passkeys too.

you can't just share passkey between your devices like you can with a password
Either you enroll a system that shares them between devices without the need for special interaction (password manager, iCloud etc) or you enroll each device separately into your account.
You can have more than one passkey for a service. This is a good thing.
- Gotcha, that makes more sense when explained that way!
I think that passkeys are simple, but no-one explains what they do and don't do in specific terms.
Someone compared it to generating private/public key pairs on each device you set up, which helps me a bit, but I recently set up a passkey on a new laptop when offered and it seemed to replace the option to use my phone as a passkey for the same site (which had worked), and was asking me to scan a QR code with my phone to set it up again.
So I don't know what went on behind the scenes there at all.
- The passkey on your phone stopped working when you set one up on your laptop? I would expect the site to allow one per device instead of one per account.
The only way I ever used passkeys is with bitwarden, and there you are sharing them between all bitwarden clients.
From my very limited experience, pass key allows to login faster and more reliable compared to letting bitwarden enter passwords and 2fa keys into the forms, but I still have the password and 2fa key stored in bitwarden as a backup in case passkey breaks.
To me, hardware tokens or passkeys are not there to replace passwords, but to offer a faster and more convenient login alternative. I do not want to rely on specific hardware (hardware token, mobile phone, etc.), because those can get stolen or lost.
- Interesting, maybe I'll give it a try. I didn't know they could just be synced between devices on bitwarden.
- +1 for Bitwarden. Seamless experience so far. EBay hasn’t yet worked properly, but GitHub does for sure. It’s very convenient, especially if your browser doesn’t store cookies
you can’t just share passkey between your devices like you can with a password
You would just sign into your password manager or browser on both devices and have access to them?
Additionally, whatever app or service you're storing them in can provide sharing features, like how Apple allows you to share them with groups or via AirDrop.
there’s very little to no documentation about what you do if you lose access to the passkeys too.
If you lose your password, there are recovery options available on almost all accounts. Nothing about passkeys means the normal account recovery processes no longer apply.
- You would just sign into your password manager or browser on both devices and have access to them?
  Does it work like that? Everything I see says they're tied to that device.
  If you lose your password, there are recovery options available on almost all accounts.
  Fair, I guess I've never lost a password because it's just a text string in my PW manager, not some auth process that can fail if things don't work just right.
Any of the multi-platform password managers that support pass keys will solve this.
You walk into the vault on every platform and your pass keys are magically shared between every platform you're logged into.
In any system that I've used pass keys for (which is every system that supports them), you can go into the password section and delete devices/passkeys.
To regenerate new passkeys they either support it directly in the spot where you deleted it or you log out log back in with username password and 2FA and it asks you again if you want to set up a passkey. I've not run into anything else.

All the major password managers store passkeys now. I have every passkey I’ve been able to make stored in Bitwarden, and they’re accessible on all my devices.

Article is behind the times, and this dude was wrong to “rip out” passkeys as an option.

That's a typical DHH article, essentially. He has some interesting insights, but everything else is borderline cult-leader opinions, and some people follow it as gospel
- I feel like if DHH hadn't picked Ruby on Rails it and standalone Ruby would be much more popular today.
If a password manager stores passkeys, how is that much different than just using a password manager with passwords?
- Storing passwords in a password manager is storing a shared secret where you can only control the security on your end and thus is still vulnerable to theft in a breach, negligence on the part of the party you’ve shared it with, phishing, man in the middle potentially, etc.
  Storing a passkey in a password manager on the other hand is storing an unshared secret that nobody but you has access to, doesn’t leave your device during use, is highly phishing resistant, can’t be mishandled by the sites you use it to connect to etc.
I need to sync my passkeys between all my devices--which really means I need keepass to store the private keys in its DB so I can sync it with all the other keepass-compatible apps I use in various places. Last I looked, this wasn't solved, but it's been a minute. I'm certainly not using a centralized password manager unless they all can freely import and export from one another. I understand this is a "being worked on" problem.
So someday, yes.
- Isn't the sync for keepass-compatible apps just syncing a normal file?

The problem with PassKey is simply that they made it way more complicated.

Anyone who has worked with SSH keys knows how this should work, but instead companies like Google wanted to ensure they had control of the process so they proceeded to make it 50x more complicated and require a network connection. I mean, ok, but I'm not going to do that lmao.

Private keys on an anonymous, untraceable smartcard. PIN or Matching-on-card fingerprint for the second factor Everything else can go directly into the garbage bin
Would love for you to describe exactly how it's more complicated. From my perspective I click a single button and it's set up. To log in I get a notification on my device, I click a button and I'm logged in.
- Would love for you to describe exactly how it’s more complicated.
  YOU JUST DID, below
  From my perspective
  neat.
  I click a single button
  ... on your device tethered to a single app by a single vendor and their closed data store
  and it’s set up.
  ... and tethered to prevent you from churning.
  To log in I
  ... wait online to ...
  get a notification on my device,
  ... or send it again. Or again. Try again. Maybe mail it?
  I click a button and I’m logged in.
  Yeah. Just click (tap) a button (enter a code).
  Using a big-brand MFA setup at one job that requires 'one button' and 'get a notification' and 'click a button', I know you're glossing over the network issues HEAV-I-LY.
  Now do it in airplane mode. Do it when the token organization is offline. Do it when there's no power because the hurricane hit and there's no cell, no data, no phones, and your DC is on its last hour of battery and you have to log in because the failover didn't run.
  Do it when your phone fell on its face in the rain into a puddle and it's not nokia.
  Do it when you either have cell service and 5% battery, or 100% battery from inside the DC and no cell service.
  Do it when you're tired, hungry, drunk, lost your glasses in the car accident.
  The D in DR means DISASTER. Consider it.
- they must have meant technically complicated, which is also meaningful in consumer technology.
  like if it's true that it requires an internet connection, that's quite bad, partly because of yet another avenue for possible tracking, and what if the service you want to access is not on the internet, but the passkey doesn't work without it still
- Would love for you to describe exactly how it’s more complicated.
  "More" is relative, ofc, so YMMV on whether you agree with me or not on this.
  But the problem with pass key is that it has all of the downsides of 2FA still -- you need to use a mobile device such as a cell phone, that cell phone must be connected to the internet and you often can't register a single account to multiple devices (as in, there's only ever 1 device that has passkey authorization.)
  This isn't an issue with ssh keys, which is a superior design despite it not being native to the web browsing experience. SSH keys can be added or removed to an account for any number of devices as long as you have some kind of login access. You can generally use SSH keys on any device regardless of network connection. There's no security flaws to SSH keys because the public key is all that is held by 3rd parties, and it's up to the user in question to ensure they keep good control over their keys.
  Keys can be assigned to a password and don't require you to use biometrics as the only authentication system.
  I feel like there's probably more here, but all of this adds up to a more complicated experience IMO. But again, it's all relative. If you only ever use password + 2fa, I will give them that it's simpler than this (even though, from the backend side of things, it's MUCH more complicated from what I hear.)

I wish all sites using 2FA would just support hardware keys instead of authenticator apps. It's so much easier to login to a site by just plugging in my hardware key and tapping its button, than going to my authenticator app and typing over some code within a certain time.

It's even sinpler than email 2fa or sms 2fa or vendor app 2fa.

For authenticator app you also can't easily add more devices unless you share the database which is bad for security. For hardware security key you can just add the key as an additional 2fa, if the site allows it.

Agreed, my main issues with hardware keys are that so few sites support them, and the OS support is kinda bad like in Windows the window pops up underneath everything and sometimes requires a pin entered.
I also hate that when I last looked nobody made a key that supports USB-C, USB-A, and NFC. So now I've got an awkward adapter I need to carry on my keychain.
- Yeah it's truly a shame almost no site other than google and github support hardware security keys.
  For your case you would probably want a yubikey 5c and then a usb c to usb a adapter yeah. I wish for a usb a and c and nfc as well.

Why does anyone still give a fuck what DHH has to say any more?

Rails is a ghetto has been a thing for over a decade, and the man is basically just a tech contrarian at this point.

Whatever way the world is moving, expect DHH to have a different opinion about it.
Random email auth is some thought leadering for sure.

I just wish that companies enabling passkeys would still allow password+MFA. There are several sites that, when you enable passkeys, lock you out of MFA for devices that lack a biometric second factor of authentication. I'd love to use passkeys + biometrics otherwise, since I've often felt that the auth problem would be best solved with asymmetric cryptography.

If companies still allowed you to login via password then any benefit you get from Passkeys would be null and void. In order to implement passkeys properly you have to disable password authentication.
The thing is it’s then on you to secure your passkey with biometrics or a password or whatever you prefer. Your phone most likely will use biometrics by default. If you’re on Mac or PC you’ll need to buy a thumbprint scanner or use camera-based window hello / secure enclave
- I just don't get why I can't use something like TOTP from my phone or a key fob when logging in with a passkey from my desktop. Why does my second factor have to be an on-device biometrically protected keystore? The sites I'm thinking of currently support TOTP when using passwords, so why can't they support the same thing when using passkeys? I don't want to place all my trust in the security of my keystore. I like that I have to unlock my phone to get a TOTP. Someone would have to compromise my local keystore and my phone, which makes it a better second factor in my opinion.
  EDIT: like, at work, I ssh to servers all over the damn place using an ssh key. I have to get to those servers through a jump box that requires me to unlock my phone and provide a biometric second factor before it will allow me through. That's asymmetric cryptography + a second factor of authentication that's still effective even if someone has compromised my machine and has direct access to my private key. That's what I want from passkeys.

I am very shitty on security (I would not write this reply on a post on the cybersecurity community), and I resisted MFA for several years as being too annoying having to login to mail/SMS. After finding open source apps supporting TOTP, I feel better about it and I manually do the syncing by just transferring the secrets between my devices offline.

Passkeys are another foreign thing that I think I will get used to eventually, but for now there are too many holes in support, too much vendor lock-in (which was my main distaste for MFA, I didn't want MS or Google Authenticator), and cumbersome (when email and SMS were the only options for MFA, difficulty of portability for passkeys).

So the problems you have with them are already solved, in the exact same ways they were solved for password/MFA. If you let Apple manage everything for you, it doesn’t matter whether you’re using passwords or passkeys, you’re locked in either way. But you always have the option to manage your passkeys manually (just like you’re doing with your TOTP) or using a third party cross-platform solution that allows for passkey import and export.

FIDO Alliance Publishes New Specifications to Promote User Choice and Enhanced UX for Passkeys

I'm not gonna lie I still don't understand how passkeys work, or how they're different from 2fa. I'm just entering a PIN and it's ok somehow? I don't get it.

It uses asymmetric cryptography. You sign a login request with the locally stored private key and the service verifies the signature with their stored public key. The PIN on your device is used to unlock access to the private key to sign the login request.
- So isn't the pin now the weakest link and shorter than a password
The passkey stored locally in some kind of hardware backed store on your device or in your password manager is the first factor: something you have.
The PIN/password or fingerprint/face to unlock the device and access the stored passkey is the second factor: something you know or something you are, respectively.
Two factors gets you to 2FA.
If you've ever used ssh it's very similar to how ssh keys work. You create a cryptographic key for the site; this is the passkey itself. When you go to "log in" the client and server exchange cryptographic challenges, which also verifies the site's identity (so you can't be phished...another site can't pretend to be your bank, and there are no credentials to steal anyway). Keys are stored locally and are generally access restricted by various methods like PIN, passphrase, security key, OTP, etc. When you're entering your PIN it's how the OS has chosen to secure the key storage. But you've also already passed one of the security hurdles just by having access to that phone/computer. It is "something you have".
- So one password to access them all basically?
  That's quite a weakness.
As I understand it (and assuming you know what asymmetric keys are)...
It's about using public/private key pairs and swapping them in wherever you would use a password. Except, passwords are things users can actually remember in their head, and are short enough to be typed in to a UI. Asymmetric keys are neither of these things, so trying to actually implement passkeys means solving this newly-created problem of "how the hell do users manage them" and the tech world seems to be collectively failing to realize that the benefit isn't worth the cost. That last bit is subjective opinion, of course, but I've yet to see any end-users actually be enthusiastic about passkeys.
If that's still flying over your head, there's a direct real-world corollary that you're probably already familiar with, but I haven't seen mentioned yet: Chip-enabled Credit Cards. Chip cards still use symmetric cryptography, instead of asymmetric, but the "proper" implementation of passkeys, in my mind, would be basically chip cards. The card keeps your public/private key pair on it, with embedded circuitry that allows it to do encryption with the private key, without ever having to expose it. Of course, the problem would be the same as the problem with chip cards in the US, the one that quite nearly killed the existence of them: everyone that wants to support or use passkeys would then need to have a passkey reader, that you plug into when you want to login somewhere. We could probably make a lot of headway on this by just using USB, but that would make passkey cards more complicated, more expensive, and more prone to being damaged over time. Plus, that doesn't really help people wanting to login to shit with their phones.
It is 2FA. Just easier to use.

I thought passkeys were supposed to be a hardware device?

This is typical embrace/extend/extinguish behavior from the large platforms that don't want their web-SSO hegemony challenged because it would mean less data collection and less vendor lock-in.

The whole idea of passkeys provided by an online platform should have been ruled out by the specification. It completely defeats the purpose of passkeys which is that the user has everything they need to authenticate themself.

I thought passkeys were supposed to be a hardware device?
Did you just admit to not even knowing what a passkey is and then decide to continue to write another two paragraphs passing judgement on them and the motives behind them anyway?
- If you think that I'm misunderstanding something and arguing from a false premise then please feel free to engage with the discussion.

I disagree with most of those arguments in the article… Additionally, there is nearly no passkey using service that does require you to still have PW and 2FA login active even if you use passkeys

We are right now in the learning/testing phase. It is not a flip and suddenly only passkey work. Transition to passkey only will be a very long time, like it was for 2FA, like, my girlfriend has it on, only at about 2 services, lol.

The main problem I have is, that people without knowledge get grabbed into walled gardens using passkeys. People with knowledge know that you can use alternative apps for passkeys, like proton or strongbox (keepass).

Whenever I read an article about security (and read the comments, even here on Lemmy) I'm constantly frustrated and depressed by a couple of things.

Corporations making things shittier with the intention of locking customers in to their stupid proprietary ecosystem. And of course, they are always seeking more data harvesting. Security itself is way down the list of their priories, if it's even there at all.
Users being lazy trend-followers who quickly sacrifice their security on the altar of convenience and whatever shiny new FOMO thing is offered up for "better security".

It's a very bad combination. Doing security right is a bit inconvenient (which users hate) and expensive (which corporations hate).

You would be less constantly frustrated and depressed if you learned a little bit about security, instead of getting upset about imagined problems with technology you don’t understand.
- I'm not against passkeys. They have some real advantages. And I understand more than you think.
  My comment is primarily about the preferred ecosystems that tend to come along with these newer solutions (like Apple's iCloud or Google's Password Manager) and how the corporations take advantage of user laziness and bandwagon jumping.
  They may not force you to be exclusive with them, but they definitely want you to be. And over time they will likely make it more and more inconvenient not to be locked in with them.
  For contrast, I use BitWarden for password management and Bitwarden Authenticator for TOTP (and I keep safe copies of TOTP secret keys elsewhere). This is a generic open-standards-first approach to things, with relatively easy recovery should you lose something. You can export your passwords. You have copies of your secret keys. You are in no way locked in to BitWarden forever.
  Passkeys can also work within that type of operational framework! Like TOTP which normally uses RFC6238, Passkeys tend to use CTAP or WebAuthn. All of the above are open standards. And this is a good thing!
  But do you really think Apple, Google, Microsoft, etc, want to play nice long term? Hopefully they will. But I have also run into evil nonsense like LastPass, which even though they also used open standards, their software would not allow you to do simple things like recover your own secret keys, export your data, etc. (Not to mention the embarrassing security breach they had and the wretched response, the main reasons to dump them).
  While I am not directly comparing an idiot company like GoTo Tech with Apple et al, they all have the same types of big brain MBA types working for them who love to constantly brainstorm new ideas on how to screw the users over by taking features away and calling it a "software upgrade".
  So, passkeys as a security mechanism: sure, this gets my vote. But trusting the big corporations not to change the rules on us later....come on, get real. They love limiting or removing portability and recovery options whenever they can.
  Bottom line: don't assume passkeys are inherently good or bad. It's simply a security standard that can work well if implemented correctly. Passkeys make logging in easier. But will they also make recovery / export / migration easier....? Because if it's not easy, people won't do it.

I do think that we need more standard procedures around what a reset/authorize new device looks like in a passkey world. There's a lot about that process that just seems like it's up to the implementer. But I don't think that invalidates passkeys as a whole, and most people are going to have access to their mobile device for 2 factor no matter where they are.

Incidentally I have no idea who this is or whether his opinion should be lent more weight.

DHH with a pants-on-head stupid argument just because he hates the big players in tech? Must be a day ending in Y again.

I wish FIDO had paid more attention to SQRL. It's long in the tooth now, but with some attention it could have been a better solution than passkeys, IMO.

I always thought of passkeys as a convenient way to authenticate.

I am password-less on multiple services.

I have an authentication app on my phone that authenticate me when I am away of my computers. I have passkeys on my personal computer and another set of passkeys on my work laptop.

If I have to authenticate from your computer I simply use my auth app, click on "it's a public computer" and I am good to go.

The dude discovered a butter knife and he tries to replace his spoon with it just to realize it doesn't work well for eating a soup.

Do you add separate keys on every device?
If you do, how long does it take you to add a new device?
- For example, when you login on Github, go in your settings, authentication & security on the left.
  Click "add passkey", enter your Windows Hello PIN, click save.
  It will ask you to enter a name, so I go with ComputerName-GitHub
  Click ok.
  Done with this device.
  How long does it take? Well, how fast can you do these steps?

Passkeys are only good if they aren't in a online password manager. They are better than TOTP 2FA in terms of security and phishing resistance. I see 2FA as a last resort when someone even gets into my password manager. Storing passkeys completely makes this useless, as I'm sure anyone that can log into my accounts would've done so by getting a hold of my unencrypted password manager database. Unless android provides a real offline way of storing passkeys in the device, I am not interested alot.

Actual zero knowledge encrypted password managers with 2FA?
- Keepass?

Why not just passkeys with a “magic link” fallback though?

This is the same as forgotten password so ytf not

Dunno, we rolled it out without issue. But of course they also had keepass. You want password AND (TOTP token or hardware token)

If you're using a hardware token to replace passwords, you're doing 2FA wrong

With a password manager I'd argue its better but supports still not all there yet. I am waiting on bitwarden right now to support mull, basically its blacklisted, but it was added in the last 2 weeks so now its a waiting game.

Passkeys aren't a full replacement in my opinion, which is what DHH gets wrong. It's a secure, user-friendly alternative to password+MFA. If the device doesn't have a passkey set up you revert to password+MFA.

And the fewer times that people are entering their password or email/SMS-based 2FA codes because they're using passkeys, the less of an opportunity there is to be phished, even if the older authentication methods are still usable on the account.

I'm sorry but I seriously do not see any benefits to using passkeys.

I use 24 character passwords in Bitwarden with 2fa on all accounts, how is a passkey better than that?

I'm a fan oh having a little usb key on your keychain, that has a fingerprint scanner

Fuck DHH

For me, I'd prefer that everyone just adds biometric authentication techniques. A couple websites do this already and it's great. Many devices have biometrics built in already and if this was widespread I'd certainly have no problem buying a fingerprint reader for my desktop computer.

That's literally a passkey.
Question - what do you do when the site is hacked and your biometrics are compromised? Issue new ones?
- You don't have interchangeable fingerprints? Keep up with the times /s
- The password still works.
You do realize that your biometric authentication techniques don't actually send your biometrics (e.g. fingerprint/face) to the website you're using and that you are actually just registering your device and storing a private key? Your biometrics are used to authenticate with your local device and unlock a locally-stored private key.
That private key is essentially what passkeys are doing, storing a private key either in a password manager or locally on device backed by some security hardware (e.g. TPM, secure enclave, hardware-backed keystore).
- Sure I knew that. I just didn't know if that was a "passkey" or some other private key mechanism.