Should I permanently leave Israel?

This is a deeply personal choice. Don't let other people decide for you. Think about how you want to live for the next 5, 10,15 years and what you want to spend that time doing.

I'll go against the grain and give you a straight answer.

Yes. You should leave Israel and never go back.

You owe nothing to your country. If you have the possibility to live in a good European country, do it. You're no martyr. You're not billionaire rich. And unless you're a really high rank offcial, an important politician, or want to sacrifice your entire life to a cause, you have no reason to waste your short life in pain.

We're in a silly blue rock between a billion trillion systems, none of which care about you. Your existence is not even a blimp in the context of the universe. You're not important at all. So why waste and suffer on behalf of a thing you have absolutely no control? Be happy, be comfortable, and make those around you happy and comfortable.

Life is pretty hard already, there's no need to make it harder. Go and be happy.

Quick addendum: I'm not saying that because its Israel. I'm saying that in the context of any country. You owe nothing to it, a piece of land that you manage to be birthed on by being really lucky or unlucky. If you can rectify that and move to a better country to you, you should do it instead of suffering.

As a Russian Jew who fled the Russia in the 1980s, my family moved for our safety and opportunity. Countries don't deserve reverence just for being countries. We can be proud of our heritage without having to show allegiance to a nation state. Especially, when it is using our ethnicity/religion to brutally wipe out and massacre a civilian population.

Just do what is best for you and your family.

That's a question only you can answer. Answering these questions might help you make a decision though.

Do you think Israel's future is worth fighting for?

Do you have an ability to leave again in the future?

Can you legally vote in Israeli elections without being in Israel?

Are you giving up personal opportunities that are important to you?

Asking other people outright is just going to tell you what other people want you to do.

There's certainly nothing "cowardly" about leaving. Live where you feel comfortable being. Wherever you feel happy.

Regardless of your decision, I think you deserve credit just for seriously considering the issues involved.

Is leaving Israel a good idea? Yes.

Is the US a good place to move to? That's a more interesting question. We have some issues too.

Yeah, this isn't something that any of us can decide for you. And any views will be clouded by how people think on the Israel-Hamas conflict.

If your wish to change things is the only thing that makes you want to go back, be honest with yourself, do you actually have the ability to change anything?

My family left Iran before I was born and I'm grateful they did. What could we have done to change the country from within? Unfortunately nothing.

It is cowardly, but the amount of good you can do is much greater while you're alive and healthy. Cowardice is an evolutionary trait. It helps us survive. Don't let it become guilt. If democracy has truly eroded and Israel is beyond redemption as you hypothesize, then there is nothing you could have done as an individual to begin with.

to ask questions even while anxious is something to be commended on especially since you aren't sure about what the right choices could be

I think it's actually brave to ask for help especially in difficult situations such as the one you're in

"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." - Marcus Aurelius

Should I go back and try to change society or should I just leave for good?

This brings back memories from a well known anime called Code Geass where 2 of the characters have a debate on whether change can either be born from within the system or if it must be made externally

• Lelouch vs Suzaku

Personally I'd say it's external but I don't know if this is closest to the truth of the perfect solution

From recent historical records like Hong Kong and Ukraine🌻 vs Russia

• brain drain is a real thing and it seems that to continue living under oppression and subjugation is probably the worst if not wrong decision as you'd be unintentionally sacrificing yourself for a corrupt authority

change is probably a mix of both internal and external

• but to continue living in an state of eroding democracy might be more detrimental than benefical to most
• as I'm writing this, I find it funny that this could be said the same for the fediverse here

So of course in the end it should come down to what you want to do and where you see yourself living a happier life, and not what people on the internet think you should do. However, purely from a "making the world a better place" perspective, I'd recommend not returning. I get the idea of trying to change society from within, but frankly I think Israel in its current state is beyond saving. The sense of invincibility, among other issues, is too much for simple activism to fix; the country as a whole needs the Nazi Germay treatment (the de-Nazification part, not the war part). At least by not being in Israel you make sure your tax money and children aren't used in genocide.

I repeat, do what you feel is best for you, but to directly answer your question your absence does more to weaken the Israeli Apartheid apparatus than your presence. Do vote though; definitely vote.

Well, I don't have an emotional response to the shit going on there, so take this with that in mind.

There's a few sides to your decision.

First, can you actually do anything? You've said no in other comments, so I assume that stays the same. It means that you aren't morally obligated to go back for that reason. If you did have either current influence, or could realistically gain influence, to enact change within a reasonable time frame (say, under a decade), you might have that moral obligation. Might. But you don't, so it's personal choice.

Second, without an obligation to return, would it benefit you to go back? Do you have deep family ties? Do you have an established career? Do you have property that would need liquidating? If any of that is true, then the equation shifts to going back at least temporarily, and hoping things change, or that you can get out again later.

Third, are you sure anywhere else will take you? Long term visas or resident status aren't exactly a guarantee, and immigration isn't either. You'd need a plan, and at least a vague idea of what nation you want to settle in.

When it comes right down to it, the situation over there isn't something most people would want to return to. That situation isn't likely to resolve in the next year or two. So staying out makes sense if you can manage it. Jumping off a sinking ship isn't a bad thing, and doing so earlier makes it less likely you get sucked down with it. It seems you think Israel is going down. If that's the case, and you can't prevent it, the sooner you make the semi permanent move away, the better.

Now, it is generally true that if everyone that could resist bad actions leaves a place, change becomes impossible. But there's also the reality that not everyone that could resist really can. We're not all cut out to fight governments and society. Not even passively. Hell, the older I get, the less I'm even willing to do because at some point, it's meaningless.

But I gotta warn you, there's no place on earth without problems. Right now, any major country is fucking with something very nasty. The U.S. is having our own struggle with fascism and oligarchy, and that's also at least partially the case for Europe too. Canada is facing it, though it seems their government isn't actively pursuing crimes against humanity. It isn't just the western world, don't think I'm saying that; that's just where you mentioned wanting to settle. You simply aren't going to land anywhere you mentioned and be in a country free of horrible actions.

Should I go back and try to change society or should I just leave for good?

"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference"

I can't tell you what to do but I can tell you that getting out of a bad situation you had no hand in creating doesn't make you a coward, it just means you're rational.

No. Nobody owes their country of origin, shit. They don't care about you at all. They don't care about their own people. If you can flip a switch and make it better, do it, but don't sacrifice your life, literally or figuratively, for a cause you can't change.

You should choose whatever lets you sleep best at night.

You don't owe anything to a country just because you were born there, unless you owe taxes, which is inevitable lol. I left my home country for better opportunities and (hopefully) a better life. For most people, uprooting yourself and moving to another country for good is a once-in-a-lifetime chance/opportunity, so take that into account. Good luck.

I was lucky enough to have dual nationality and left many years ago, but then I always knew I would because I never felt like I fit in there, so I have no regrets, except for not leaving sooner - before the army would have been better, but I wasn't able too get out of it.

Be prepared though - life as an immigrant and a foreigner can have it's own challenges, as can being a Jew outside of Israel, and the "grass" - the political and social aspects of life might be different, but it isn't necessarily greener - fascism is on the rise more or less everywhere you go, as is the cost of living.

You only get one life, as long as you aren't harming anyone - do what's best for you, and remember that to create a better society the workers of the world need to unite, so it doesn't matter where you are physically, you can and should still be part of a force for change.

I don't want to give too much personal information, but if you have any questions, I can do my best to answer.

second (third (fourth)) the comments this being a personal choice

but “thanks” (/s) to the diasporas, you don’t have to limit your options to just the US (or Europe) – there are Jewish communities solidly established all over the world (your limit will be your language skills more than anything else)

You do you. I'm an American who bought a small sailboat and moved aboard full-time to leave the US for exactly the same reason. I don't hate the US, I would never betray the US, but at the same time I'm not comfortable staying here.

It's ok to live a life others may not understand. Good luck.

Leave. If nothing else, you'll get to call yourself Wasraeli.

I have nothing nice to say about the state of Israel, but as an individual you owe it to yourself to live wherever you can that you will be happiest. I can think of reasons to leave the US, including its support for Israel, but I know I would be unhappy anywhere else and my leaving wouldn't change anything.

From what I understand, the situation in Israel seems especially bad lately. I do not blame any Israeli for wanting to get out or not go back.

You need to decide what you want from your life. It is not your responsibility to "fix" Israel. If you feel truly passionate about it then go for it.

But if you're worried about this out of a vague sense of guilt or responsibility then park it. You get one life to live - don't waste it doing something your don't want to do or are not passionate about. Live a good life and strive for happiness, and try to be kind and good to those you meet on the journey - that is all that can be asked of anyone.

The only thing you can actually change is yourself.

Nobody can answer this question for you but I think to the countless examples of people not "getting out while they can" who are now--or were until their death--forever trapped in a bad situation that people today forget wasn't that bad even within living memory

Is it right for you? I don't know

Is it cowardly to let a sense of national loyalty compel you to be exposed to the mechanisms of government wielded by untrustworthy actors? No, and anybody saying otherwise is lying to you at best; lying to themselves at worst

Inb4 any what aboutisms: nothing I've said here is specific to any country

You need to do whats best for yourself, but it sounds like Israel would be a better place with your voice in it.

Explain to me what you think you, an individual, would do to "change society" in Israel?

i personally think whoever still lives in israel or palestine and maybe even has kids there, after 80 years of conflict, is crazy. it's basically "the badlands" and i think you should cut ties and settle down in a safer environment.

i don't think the US or Canada is the perfect place to live, but it's definitely better and safer than israel. i think EU, New Zealand, Australia and Britain would be even better, but you already live in the US and moving to another nation is often a lot of work, so maybe it's best to stay there. The differences in quality of life are very small IMO.

I've quit jobs due to ethical disagreements, I'm sure I'd leave my home country if things got too bad. It wouldn't be the country i grew up in anyways.

You do you, people will both agree and disagree with you no matter what you chose.

It's your choice.

The whole "be the active person who stops the riches from ruining earth" trope is a lie.

The current US is just as bad as Israel if not worse.

All the losers who either flunked high school or flunked, but had daddy to pay their way have brought fascism back en masses.

If you have the luxury to move to Sweden, or the Bahammas, as far as I'm concerned, do it.

You'll be in a better place when Israel nukes Iran, WWIII pops off, and the US cripples the internet/critical infrastructure around the world.

That's entirely subjective and up to you, however, I feel like I should point out we're dealing with our own erosion of democracy issues in the United States as well.

Avoid Canada, or at least Toronto/Vancouver. Country is not in a great state atm.

If you could make change, you could probably make change in other countries as well.

How would you plan to change society? That sounds like a big ask of someone.

I totally say someone should leave if they want, I'm currently leaving the US and traveling and am looking for a place to settle that isn't America.

But remember something: America is funding Israel and helping with Gaza, so I don't know about choosing America to get away from that. It is a step removed at least?

It's not cowardly to leave. Also, you can always change your mind or move on if that choice doesn't work out. I'd leave. But I'm already doing that.

I want to tell you to not listen to these comments, but all of them tell you to decide for yourself. Well, you asked the question, so I will answer.

Yes, and move to Palestine.

Well, if Israel loses the support of other countries, there might not be an Israel. Id also hide the fact youre a Jew, anti-semitism is on the rise, not just anti-zionism.

There is no changing a society built upon colonization. Many have tried.

If you have the opportunity to go to Europe or Canada that is definitely a more ethical choice.