Fallout London's project lead is not taking the surprise drop of Fallout 4's update well: 'That has, for a lack of a better term, screwed us over'
Fallout London's project lead is not taking the surprise drop of Fallout 4's update well: 'That has, for a lack of a better term, screwed us over'
Fallout London is whinging but the real loser is the Fallout 4 Script Extender mod, upon which so many other mods relied.
Fallout London release or no, this has broken a massive number of mods for Fallout 4 that relied on the Script Extender.
That's actually the bigger story here, that Bethesda declined to communicate with the modders who made the backbone of a lot of other mods.
From the Fallout 4 Script Extender home page:
The 2024-04-25 Fallout 4 update (1.10.980 and later) has broken F4SE and the rest of the native code modding scene similarly to Skyrim's "Anniversary Edition" patch. I am working on an update and cannot currently offer a timeline for its availability, nor whether there will be any critical technical issues that would block an update. Do not email with questions.
Fixing the script extender itself won't take that long as it doesn't need to hook that many functions (although depending on how much free time people have and whether there are any surprises, it could still take longer than most people expect). Fixing all the mods that depend on it will take much longer, as between them, they hook lots more functions than the script extender itself, and with this update, it's not just a case of most functions being the same, but at a slightly different address (as was typical with creation club updates, which tools could help with), but instead lots of functions have changed slightly due to using an updated compiler, and lots of functions have been inlined differently (so instead of just existing once, they get copied into every function that uses them, and then optimised differently in each place based on the surrounding code).
The solution that Skyrim players came up with was to downgrade to older versions. For example, Skyrim SE mods are all permanently version 1.5.97 supported. This can be done manually via the Download Depot commands in the Steam Console which is accessed by typing steam://open/console into the Windows "Run" prompt, or alternatively using a Downgrade Patcher mod which ironically also has to be updated for every new version.
So what I'm understanding from reading everyone's outrage and input on this, is that Fallout London may or may not come out because of this, but more importantly, just wait a little while after the update to try out mods, just like every other Bethesda game update?
So how do they hook into the game, is it through the .DLL libraries?
Nobody liked that.
I made a tutorial on reverting to 1.5.97 Skyrim SE like a month ago because it breaks again with every new update, and they STILL update it pretty frequently.
They did this to Skyrim too. Breaking mods in decade old games is ridiculous
This isn't a great take IMO.
Why does Bethesda have to be obligated to ensure third party mods work on their game after an update? Isn't that the job of the mod author to ensure their mod is compatible with the latest update? How is this any different from how any other game with mods has ever worked, ever?
Would it be nice? I guess, but it would require Bethesda to get every mod for the previous version and test for compatibility with the new update before they release their update. That's a ridiculous request.
And I was just considering acquiring f04 to play around with mods
Oh well
Every single time this happens, people act like its the first time. Game updates -> Script Extender breaks -> Mods reliant on it break too. Every. Single. Time.
but this is a game that basically lives and dies by its mods, and this is an update that (arguably) changed nothing anyone who is still playing the game cares about after years of stability. why fix what isn't broken?
Supposedly, the biggest change was simply removing the launcher. Because in order to be steam deck verified, it can’t have the intermediary launcher that interrupts the game booting.
But removing that apparently broke a lot of other things for a lot of people. Supposedly, doing a fresh install helps. Apparently the update fucks some stuff, but a completely fresh install will be buttery smooth. At least, that’s the scuttlebutt. But that doesn’t include mods which have been broken, (and many which aren’t being actively updated anymore, because why bother updating a mod for a game that hasn’t had an update in years?)
I used to run a popular mod that made an indie beta game even more popular. Guess who almost all of the final testers were before release? My whole team. We were clearly the most devoted people to the game and knew best how to break it. It was nice to get a head-start on our new mod (which we pivoted to be the equivalent of Steam Workshop or an app store before those existed). Of course, the creator became a dickwad years later and we all ended the mod and the game is dead.
For a company that relies 100% on modders for their games, you'd think they'd have an actual modding API built into their games by now.
There's a pretty extensive API, capable of more than most games that advertise modding support, but it can't do literally everything anyone could think of, so people reverse engineer the game engine to make it possible to do even more things (hence it being called a script extender rather than the modding API). It's the mod reliant on reverse engineering the executable that break, not the ones using the modding API.
Imagine if Bethesda actually really listened to and catered to their modding community instead of just trying to monetize them. They would be legend right now.
if bethesda relied 100% on modders then fo3 and new vegas and morrowind and oblivion and skyrim would have completely failed on console. did they?
"This thing they announced for last year, then pushed back to this year and released to coincide with a massively hyped TV show was a complete surprise to us." Is that really FO:London's stance? I mean, I feel for them that it sucks, but to call it a surprise feels straight up disingenuous.
How do you prepare for an update when Bethesda don't tell you what is changing? It says in the article they had literally no correspondence from Bethesda until the update dropped, so the only thing they could do was keep developing and hope not too much broke in the process.
That being said, from what I understand is that the script extender broke, so they're just waiting for an undefined time until that gets fixed for the latest update.
The script extender breaks with every update and is usually fixed within a week.
I'll have to watch the BBC interview. The way the article is worded makes it sounds like they've been in communication with Bethesda while creating Fallout London.
It was surreal watching BBC report on a game mod. I saw the thumbnail 'Fallout London Delay' with the BBC logo and thought there was a terrorist attack or something.
Fallout's been full of Americana. The Euros haven't had their shot at running around in places they know.
I remember hearing about the current-gen upgrade a long time ago. Why is this a surprise?
it was announced quite literally 2 years ago. that is plenty of time to get ready for
I have no idea how modding works, but how would they get ready for a patch without having the files in advance?
My understanding is, they didn't know what to get ready for. It's like somebody saying "I'm going to change the game a lot, watch out!" So what do you do then? Sit around and not develop anything for 2 years because it might be based on code that will change?
Why do they need to release for the newest version? If they were going to release soon anyways, just release for the old version of Fallout.
I'm picturing the number of messages they'd receive the day the update hit. People suck. Most will understand that they need to hold off on updating if they want to play the mod, some will seek support when it breaks. Some of those will say "that makes sense" and disappointedly wait for the mod to update, some of those will get angry. I certainly wouldn't want an inevitable flood of angry emails a few days after the big release.
Seriously, especially if it really screwed them over. And I thought he was just celebrating this?
I made sure to download my copy of FO4 from GOG since it hasnt updated yet. Shame London won't release on GOG (who will be hosting it) still while they work on fixing it for the new version.
Yep, I had to grit my teeth and fork over those $10 in GoG for the 1.10.163. I think I will be buying from them first before Steam from now on. Glad they have auto updates disabled options too.
I'm disappointed in myself for buying FO4 recently.
If you just bought it, just play it. You don't need mods.
This is untrue. Without the boner points to nearest valuable loot mod the game is unplayable.
I can't play fnv without wmx anymore. I'm spoiled. Does fo4 weapon mod good?
I've had it for a couple of years but just never got around to playing it. Was excited to do that now after watching the show but after the update it just instantly crashes after clicking "play" on the launcher (completely fresh install, all drivers etc updated). This seems to be very common too, tons of posts about it on the steam discussions. Sadly not super surprised, it's Bethesda after all.
I was disappointed in myself for buying it when it first came out. I hope there has been a LOT of patching, because at release it was boring AF. Especially coming from FO3 where dialog options and story branching actually mattered. In FO4 I remember purposely choosing the dumbest dialog options and the game just led me where it wanted me to go anyway.
This disappointment was compounded by me also buying Just Cause 3 at the same time... Holy shit what a garbage weekend that was. That was the day I vowed to never buy a game on presale again.
Just Cause 2 was so much fun!
And nothing will ever beat FO:NV.
4 has been ok.
Am I the only person who never installed a single mod for any Bethesda game?
you're missing out hundreds and thousands of awesome fan made content, there's even entire fan made dlcs
Don't forget the hundred-hour-long minigame of "Which order do these mods need to load in so they don't break again?"
That automated settlement mod for FO4 single handedly rekindled my interest in the game.
I'm not building one more goddamn water purifier for you lazy bastards 😤
... Unless I see you have a slight shortage in your build plan
Agree with whay the other person said. Mods for these games are incredible, often better than the core game. Definitely do it
Weird flex
Not a flex, just find it astounding to know how good the original games were and for people to say they suck without mods. I see that a lot.
Yeah probably
Nah, I'm right there with you.
I mean you do you, but Beth games are modding playgrounds, the only other games I can think of really is Rimworld. So for me, playing a Bethesda game modless is like eating a sandwhich of white bread and mayo
I mean, it's fine as a stand-alone game, and selecting and setting up a collection of mods takes longer than I'd like. I kind of wish that the default starting point was to do something like what Wabbajack does, use a large curated set of mods, but then let one tweak it like the regular mod managers. But Skyrim and Fallout 4 have to be some of the most-modded games out there. It's a lot of content and improvements from the community.
They also released some years back. Without mods, they look kinda old in present-day context.
Pretty sure this was fully intended. You're getting a bunch of band new buyers from the TV show. This can be a way to direct them towards their CC and away from free mods.
I doubt it. Most people seem to regard Creation Club content as something different than regular mods. You can check out the content that's available here but a majority of it is closer to the paid skins found in online games than what people typically associate with modding and meaningfully altering a game.
I think Bethesda knows this and most people looking to mod Fallout 4 are probably going to continue working with what's available.
Can't help but feel for the developers here. I get that Bethesda has no responsibility to keep 3rd party Devs updated, but surely someone on the team would have noticed the potential for community engagement and worked with those putting the time and effort into the IP.
BGS: because fuck you, that's why.
Have they never had to deal with a Bethesda patch before!?
I get this project is a big deal for some folks but having a hard time accepting the argument that I shouldn’t get a better visual/overall game experience because of a mod I’ll never play and their apparent lack of communication with Bethesda. They just expected to be that high of priority? Am I reading this wrong?
Edit: reading through comments I’m a little more sympathetic to modders writ large than I am this team specifically but I get the frustration. Bethesda could’ve done everyone a solid and given a little heads up. Still, it sounds like this project has been massive in scope and basically any changes were going to cause them issues so that’s worth considering here too.
One route might be to push out a new release for a month or something on a beta branch so that modders can see what breaks and provide some time to fix it prior to it being pushed out to everyone.
Take longer to get updates out, but reduce windows where mods are broken.
No, this is a bad idea because it makes too much sense.
They’re saying this will take more than 2 months. They’re upset because it effectively undoes a lot of their work, which sucks, but that was always going to be the case unless bethesda went out of their way like a year ago to tell them what was coming. And remember, these guys aren’t even in the creator club or in any way communicating with Bethesda. I just think it’s a little unreasonable to be so independent while expecting Bethesda to anticipate their very specific needs.
I wish Bethesda did and maybe I’m being too generous but idk. Just not really sure I am 100% sympathetic to their plight here.
Considering mods, whether you like it or not, are a massive reasons for these games’ lasting appeal, yeah I’d consider it a big deal. You may not use mods, and hey good for you, but the billions of downloads from Nexus mods solely for these games in particular shows that many others do.
Regardless, ignoring all of that, the Skyrim Script Extender Team was in contact with Bethesda before Special Edition released, giving them time to work on an SE version for when the day came. So it was perfectly reasonable for the Fallout Script Extender Team to expect the same.
I agree FSET got done dirty
accepting the argument that I shouldn’t get a better visual/overall game experience because of a mod I’ll never play
I'd be surprised if they'd do something substantial. They only do that to keep paid DLCs and mods afloat.
It sucks that this was the outcome as it's going to require a ton of work from the modders, but to expect that a major publisher would involve the unofficial modding community in the release of official patches feels insane, even if they do have a sizable following.
In fact, I prefer it this way. I want the publisher to keep their fingers out of what the modders do as much as possible. Things are their best when the publisher is ignorant of their work. Less chance that the Eye of Sauron that is their legal department starts checking over mods for potential copyright lawsuits
I just received the update and the graphics are much better in the XBox. Everything is much more smooth.
Probably the fps bump, which could’ve been done ages ago if they wanted to, and with far less drama. It’s about as simple as ticking a box.
And apparently it doesn’t even include graphical improvements. At least on PC.
Yeah cool but can it still run the genitalia mods?!
Only the genital mods themselves. All the stuff that uses them are broken.
"The new book has, for lack of a better term, completely screwed over my fanfiction"
"These books live and die by their fanfiction. For the authors not to coordinate with the fanfic writers is a disgrace"
My dude, we're talking about Bethesda. The community fixing their broken-ass games is a time honored tradition.
Never heard of this project. I mean sounds like a cool mod, but why is this news, and why does a mod need to care about a release date? They're not selling a product, they can release whenever lol.
why does a mod need to care about a release date?
It's in the article, dude:
The Fallout 4 script extender will be what breaks after the next-gen update, so the Fallout London team will have to just wait and see what happens and then change the framework before making everything compatible. These problems are why Fallout London's release date got pushed back indefinitely.
They can't release the mod until the Fallout 4 script extender gets updated to work with the update, since (like most mods) they rely on F4SE to add additional capabilities to the game.
Do you think under a communist gift economy, release dates for media wouldn't matter?
Bethesda was under no obligation to talk to these mod devs beforehand. But it sure makes them look bad. As a recent comparable, Concerned Ape was open and communicative with all the mod devs before releasing his latest patch for Stardew Valley, a game that is just about as old as Fallout 4.
Bethesda has become a literal laughingstock at this point in time and it's just funny to point at them every time they rack up another L.
They had no obligation, but there was no reason they couldn't take the minimal effort and put out a blog post saying that the update would break mods. The modding scene is the only thing keeping Bethesda's games relevant (except New Vegas, but that's not really Bethesda's achievement).
The recent Fallout series is probably doing a good job.
Every single update breaks mods that rely on a script extender because it changes the game's binary.
Yes, but $.
Bethesda communicated beforehand for script extender Skyrim. Gave them an NDAA and allowed them to update the extender before the anniversary update release.
Don’t know why they didn’t do the same for Fallout
Stardew is such a good example given the community is similarly mod-centric
I recently had to find out that a mod author of a couple mods I was happily using on my PS5 copy of Skyrim removed their mods entirely because of another batch of greedy monetisation efforts from Bethesda, trying to monetise mods even further. Just fuck those guys man
Wait...mods for ps5?