Microsoft wants to hide the 'Sign out' button in Windows 11 behind a Microsoft 365 ad
Microsoft wants to hide the 'Sign out' button in Windows 11 behind a Microsoft 365 ad
With how aggressive Microsoft is becoming with ads, services, and data collection they could at least make Windows itself free.
But no, you still have to pay £100+ per license to have the pleasure of putting up with this crap.
Every generation has this moment, where they learn to hate Microsoft (or Micro$oft). Then, 4% install Linux, 6% buy a Mac with half the RAM for twice the price; and everyone else to keeps complaining.
With me it was when they killed off my favorite browser. I'm now using the reanimated bushy red corpse of it.
Netscape?
MS has done shady things but Netscape's own top employees have written about how Netscape destroyed itself with the version 4 rewrite. Joel Spolsky has also written about how complete rewrites are always a mistake.
Their corporate side failed too. If you weren't fortune 500, Netscape wouldn't talk to you. I was spending $50k a year with Netscape and they wouldn't fix a bug unless I paid for an additional $75k a year support tier. ( The bug was Netscape 4 didn't support dialing with area codes! )
Meanwhile during the late 90's Microsoft devs put their personal emails in the readme.txts and would quickly patch any bugs or add features if you emailed them.
All the small isp's (which were over 50% of the market) gave up on Netscape because of this.
What was your favorite browser?
This is the way
I feel like you're describing Windows here lol
That was the status quo when I tried Linux ~5 years ago. Nowadays, Linux is much more plug and play (and I'm specifically referring to Pop OS).
Desktop Linux requires buying a USB / DVD, inserting it into your machine, and hitting OK several times. If you can't do that, you also can't install Windows.
Linux mint user here.
Sound works even better then windows, Printers needed terminal work to install, but forums were very helpful. https://safereddit.com/r/linux/comments/rpgn28/my_grandma_called_and_thanked_me_for_installing/
My dad is 60 and uses Mint for years now. That enough "grandma" for you?
Linux and Nvidia really need to sort out their shit so I can fully dump windows.
Luckily the AI hype is good for something in this regard, since running gpus on Linux servers is suddenly much more important.
Its mainly Nvidia's shit. The only reason Nvidia is caring about Linux now, is that is the platform AI models use.
The only thing keeping me on windows is the Nvidia GPU in my laptop. If Linux got actual dynamic GPU switching support I would delete windows and never look back.
I've been running NVIDIA under Linux for about six years now, with no more issues than one would encounter running hardware/drivers from a number of manufacturers under a number of platforms.
In all honesty, I've encountered far more issues regarding HP printer drivers under Windows.
I've been using Nvidia under Linux for the last 3 years and it has been massive pita.
Getting CUDA to work consistently is a feat, and one that must be repeated for most driver updates.
Wayland support is still shoddy.
Hardware acceleration on the web (at least with Firefox) is very inconsistent.
It is very much a second-class experience compared to Windows, and it shouldn't be.
My old HP printer won't even install on Win10 anymore. The have also removed the driver from the HP website. I'm sure you can still find it on some sketchy website, but I'd rather just use Mint on a laptop for printing all the 3 documents I print each year. Not to mention that windows updates take FOREVER on this low powered dual core laptop. On Mint it's seconds.
since running gpus on Linux servers is suddenly much more important.
It's always been important. Nvidia will never have actual open source drivers. They do this thing where they intentionally hobble your GPU unless you pay them even more money for a more expensive GPU.
Check out NVK and Nova.
PopOS has a good nvidia card support, try it out! It made me dump windows last October.
Pop OS has great Nvidia support out of the gate. Latest mint seems to handle Nvidia well also.
As much as I like Linux, and use it almost exclusively on desktop/laptop, every time I see something like this I am reminded how much I hate the fact that Apple of all companies is about the last bastion of commercial and consumer operating systems who isn’t trying to derive the bulk of their revenue from advertising.
Even Apple is falling. Their ad business (yes, they have one) makes billions and is the fastest growing part of the company. The app store is already quite ad-riddled, and the other parts of iOS are geared to get you to subscribe to all the Apple services.
Yes they just derive it by keeping the Windows/MacOS duopoly in place and monopolizing communication channels.
In some sense yes, but advertising for its own stuff is advertising too. It nudges you to use their whole ecosystem.
The most annoying thing for me is that you can't remove the iTunes component in mission control (the settings deck).
It does nudge you...but it's not full screen ads that take multiple clicks to get through every week. I was a Windows zealot through W7...W10 got bad...W11 got me to start using Apple and Linux.
This is what happens when they know you won't leave.
"But muh games...and Linux is too difficult and weird"
I say to those: well then you've made your choice, didn't you? It's going to keep happening, like it's been since the 90s.
Why is the target of your comment towards people that use Windows?
I am not sure why People on Lemmy feel like if they point something out to people who can't see the comment is going to get them to change their mind.
I have and use both Linux and Windows. I prefer both for different reasons.
I know I'm talking into the void. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm too tired of trying to do that. Just trying to get people to realize they made the choices they have to live with.
I may be spoiled in that I don't play AAA multiplayer games, but I do play AAA single player and indie single/multiplayer (usually the type where one of the players is also the server, e.g. Terraria).
Been running Linux on my systems for more than a decade, and - especially since Proton/SteamDeck enchantments made their way upstream - I haven't had any major ssues (except having to wait a while to play RDR2-PC in Ubuntu because of a weird game-specific graphics card driver issue, but even that was fixed in due course).
Fuck Windows, and fuck the assertion that it's the only way to run games.
Proton really did marvelous shit.
Made it so easy that even an idiot (like me) could get games running on linux without much headache. Especially nowadays, even big game titles working almost flawlessly on release day.
Again it might be that I pretty much don't play competitive online games because if there's anything that ruins gaming it's random strangers, but I have had practically no problem playing games over the last ten years.
What about people who needs NURBS tools and Affinity/Adobe class art softwares? Where do they go that corporations decided Windows and Mac are only to be supported? And believe me, plenty of them hates Windoze and I'm one of them.
Dual boot if you're up for it.
Those will not run under/with emulation?
Develop own software or support indepndent sw development however you can.
If you really need something, think about your personal dependencies and try to build some resilience / backups , one way or another.
Whatever your craft, a pathway towards ownership and control of tools and maintenance should be a traditional part of mastering the craft.
So that you can eventually do things like extend the toolset, or adapt tools to niche circumstances and advance things along.
If you don't have that pathway, then you might end up trapped as an apprentice or journeyperson and will continue to be exploited by those who control the things you depend on.
If there's no freedom and no way to develop competition in the supply chain, then you probably would benefit from - collective organisations such as trades-guilds, or professional associations or trade-unions to counter the power imbalance, and represent your needs - but they can also get captured/bribed so those probably need a bit of effective democracy / transparency/accountability or something. I'm not going to suggest govt regulation, becasuse that's super easy to capture and national-election democracy is a weak control, but you might get some progressive govts like some European ones that'd think about doing something suppoting foss projects, maybe.
It might not be easy, but you have to look for and support those types of features for the good of your industry.
Corps will eat their industry for a quick $, it's the workers, tradespeople and masters of the craft and some small businesses who care about the long term. And maybe any enlightened customers if you're lucky enough to have them.
As an example, for physical 3d cad, personally I don't like freecad much it's complex and not very intuitive; but it lets me do all the maths I want in python, with my own made up data structures / object model. So i'll use and support freecad 100% over all the other more user friendly CAD that i've seen - it really is the freedom, and not being so dependant.
Yep,dual boot.
There has to be a point of diminishing returns for them with this kind of behavior. This is just so aggravating.
I'd wager they are hoping to entrap as many people as they can on the platform, with their TPM restrictions, and store restrictions, and account restrictions, that sunk cost fallacy will keep the overwhelming bulk of people stuck in their web.
I'd also wager that enterprise probably doesnt have any of this bullshit
Can confirm, I run enterprise at home and have yet to see some of these shenanigans I've seen posted.
But there's still enough I hate about Windows 11 that I'm slowly transitioning to Linux and then just running windows in a VM for things there aren't good alternatives for.
So same strategy as Apple?
Ads have evolved into a cancer that is just growing and growing, making everything around them worse.
Ads have always been a cancer.
Not exactly. When the webmaster you knew put a banner in the corner of their site with ads from one and the same source, in one and the same place, not popping up and not bothering you, it really felt fine. I even felt the urge to click that and see where it leads.
Remember also Opera free version with that ad banner.
The best part is when spammers and ad generators realized how easy it is to use GPT to automate and increased the number of spam bots and ads.
Another day, another piece of enshittification by MS, another reason to talk about our Lord and Saviour, Linus Torvalds, if you can spare a few minutes.
At this point I'm convinced that the new windows feature announcements are just ads for linux
*Ads for MacOS/chromeos
I don't see any enshitiffication features and ads in Windows 11 that Lemmy and tech news are reporting. I wonder if it's because I'm in the EU.
They may have not implemented it yet. I see a lot of things reported that they are still testing.
Yeah, the start menu ads were / are 'only' in the beta build.
New features get released into the developer preview. It's basically beta test windows. It's what the tech sites watch to see what new features/etc have been added/removed/changed. Usually they end up making it into the release builds, but sometimes they end up not doing it, or the change doesn't apply to certain regions.
Now that Linux can run pretty much all the games I play on the PC I don't think I'm going to have much use for windows at home anymore
May I suggest getting a mini PC if the home PC is going to be used by everyone else at home?
I want my power button to cut off the power instantly. I want my log off button to be instant. Add any delay and I start pulling cables!!!!!!!!!
I got to go, lock this computer, so I can do a thing! Oh shit, its not locking... fuck... Security says I can't leave a unlocked console.... POWER!
Adding needless friction is terrible! Don't do it.
At work, when I did desktop support, the number of people who would just hit their power bar when they left every day...
Alpha move right there
Is that bad for the computer? Because I didn't even think about this in a corporate environment until your comment. All our employees would be pulling cords or batteries, they all march out at exactly 430.
Win+L to immediately lock a windows machine. You can get the logout dialogue with alt+F4
KDE Plasma uses largely all the same shortcuts as windows. The most important ones in my opinion being super+arrow keys to move and tile windows.
What I love the most about Windows is just how easy it is to find all the user settings I need to change. And I super appreciate how they configure things that work so perfect for me. It's like I never need to make decisions of my own, they can read my mind. /S
theyre turning the deskop into a mobile platform which is inherently difficult to mod. this is so they can provide it as a service to any device.
I always laugh when someone says Linux has fragmented settings. Windows has that buddy. the fucking MOUSE SENSITIVITY setting is in a windows 7 UI.
You got me on the first half
I've held off on saying it until now (I haven't), but now I'm going to call it (again):
This is the year of the Linux Desktop.
(It feels like someone influential at Microsoft is trying to protect my reputation and force my prediction to come true.)
I finally switched my gaming rig two weeks ago. Been great so far, except VR and I'll admit, the Xbox Game Pass missing...I wish gog or someone would come up with something like it, because there have been a lot of games I started and didn't finish because they just haven't been my cup of tea...
Now if Autodesk would get their shit together as well, things could be happening at work as well.
I think subscription would go against gog and its DRM policy (how would they enforce a subscription period without DRM), specially because gog is like the last place where we can have something that resembles owning a game nowadays.
i had gamepass working via browser on my computer.
my controller, on the other hand, never worked in the browser, so it kinda made it pointless thatn gamepass worked
I setup my ROG Ally to dual boot Linux about a week ago and have had plugged into a monitor and I have not had any issues using it in desktop mode. If not for Easy Anti-cheat I’d being a thing I wouldn’t have much reason to keep windows on my main pc.
What does that mean. What does "the year of the Linux desktop" mean, really? And why is it different than last year?
It means that this year, Linux on desktop will make big strides (again)!
And why is it different than last year?
When I declared it last year, I was a year early, because this year will be bigger.
Microsoft got to much time on their hands. Can they please work on the more important stuff like completing the transition from controlpanel to settings?
If anything, they need to revert back to control panel.
By the time they do that, they'll have introduced a third settings app, and only four options from the current Win8/8.1/10/11 one will have been ported to it.
Or make Teams a not piece of shit. Even worse they had teams on Linux in the past. Now have new teams and new outlook, which are just electron...give it back to Linux please.
No
Autodesk! All the others! Can you now, goddammit, for the sake of the mental health of your customers, start building your tools on platforms other than this crap? PLEASE? I mean I'm seriously considering building a parallel system running Linux for all my other office needs and just touch my Win-pc to run my CAD. I hope MS will continue in this way and ai-mercialize their OS more and more so hopefully the software providers will have enough at one point.
I've used FreeCAD for hobby 3d printing and plywood CNC projects. It seemed buggy, and the workflow seemed strange, but I've never used anything else, so it's fine, I guess, lol.
FreeCAD is of course the tool of choice for my hobby projects. All of our workgroup's students get an introduction. But while its a great tool, you'll notice the lack of ... management (?) in the background. I'm not bashing or even judging. I very much appreciate all the work put into it. But it's simply ... not there yet to be considered a serious alternative to one of the big players.
I tried building a Steam box with the bootleg version of SteamOS from the deck... Can't remember the name of the distro. Steam Games ran great for the most part, but getting Epic, EA and Ubisoft to work was a nightmare. If Linux can get that sorted, I'd never use Windows again.
You don't need the bootlegged version of SteamOS, there is ChimeraOS (GitHub).
Also Steam runs great on a lot of distros, I use Arch Mint btw. ;-)
For Epic Games, GOG and Amazon you can use Heroic Games Launcher (GitHub).
Heroic is amazing. Rather than running the crappy Epic client via Wine, you just install this native piece of software that then launches each game via Wine/Proton/whatever else and pretty much just works every time, complete with things like EAC
Most EA and Ubisoft games I've played run fine on Deck. Just need to run the game in desktop mode first and then it boots in the Steam UI side of the OS just fine.
So, literally every game I've bought on steam is playable on my Manjaro box.
Additionally, a recent KDE6 upgrade messed up my config and necessitated a full system reinstall. After remounting the partition where my steam games were installed on in the old sys, they....just worked. Even the ones that don't cloud sync, saved games all there, DLC all there.
I don't know how long reinstalling ~1TB of games would take on windows.... a lot? Pretty sure you have to fully reinstall them, not just "point steam to the drive where they live"
Frankly I just don't see why people tolerate windows anymore. It's just laughably bad.
I used to keep my steam games on a separate windows 10 partition and it worked exactly as you describe after a reinstall, it was all there. It’s still incredibly cool that this works on Linux and we get to use it as daily driver without being forced to dual boot for games. A windows installation still lingers on my desktop but it’s been years since I booted into it.
If you have games in a separate partition, then you will have no need to reinstall it even in case with reinstalling Windows, though.
You haven't really highlighted any of the linux advantages here.
Like I wrote, Steam games were generally good, other storefronts, not so much.
Yeah, it's definitely better now then it was before believe it or not. I honestly just avoid them at all cost even on windows. I hate games that ship their own launcher even though I bought it on steam
Bottles and Lutris would help in this case for you.
It didn't work before, maybe I'll try it again when I have the time.
What games were you trying to play
I run both the Epic Store as well as the EA App via Bottles, and I had both up and running in about ten minutes.
You can also install both launchers under Steam via Proton. The process is a little more involved, but far from difficult.
In total, I expect this to cost about a minute or two of my life if they never remove the ads. This figure is fairly typical for daily windows users, of which ~400kk are on win11. Microsoft will steal ~1.5*400,000,000 minutes with these ads. Ads that nearly no one will even consider clicking. 600,000,000 minutes=10,000,000 hours=1140 years. Multiple lifetimes in aggregate, all to be thrown away for nothing. I’d like to send a very strongly worded knot tying tutorial to Satya Nadella and Brad Smith.
Lots of people will spend a few hours then several tens of minutes monthly or so finding out how and then disabling the ads after each update
All that AI can't pay for itself, I guess.
Wait, so this is not about the power menu, it's about the pop up when clicking on your account picture bubble if you're signed in to a MS account. They aren't adding a step to logging out of your local Windows user, just to logging out of your Microsoft account if you're using that as a login for Windows, OneDrive and Office365.
The "Lock" button also has a new home—it now sits in the power menu alongside "Shut down," "Restart," and "Sleep" options.
THAT is where the Lock button was? Not gonna lie, I've been Windows-L-ing so long I didn't even know they had moved that to the account bubble.
I'll be honest, the article is a bit overdramatic. Yeah, they are surfacing your services there to upsell you on the ones you don't have, but it's actually not a useless piece of info (currently finding your subscriptions is an ordeal) and none of the functionality is gone. It is true that a lot of UX things around Win11 have gotten worse, though. I'm currently using additional software to replace the taskbar (which will do the Start menu, too, if you want) because the inability to move it to the sides is ridiculous on the OS you're most likely to pair with an ultrawide monitor.
I'll be honest, the article is a bit overdramatic. Yeah, they are surfacing your services there to upsell you on the ones you don't have, but it's actually not a useless piece of info (currently finding your subscriptions is an ordeal) and none of the functionality is gone.
Look up "boiling a frog"
They count on this exact reaction.
Every time they implement these little bullshit changes, people inevitably go "It's annoying but it's not that big a deal." And then they do more of it a few months later.
The article isn't being hyperbolic because it's reacting to the overall trend that this is yet another step forward in. Because the writer and everyone here knows it will get worse and worse over time.
Dark patterns are, by design, slow and incremental so as not to trigger too much pushback at once. People need to start being more aware of it and pushing back on it when they see it.
And yes, that information is probably useful to some people, but that doesn't in any way justify hiding the options that used to be there.
Do you know the term "trust thermocline"?
Basically it described a problem with the boiling the frog technique. There's a point for every user at which they're fed up with the bullshit, lose all trust in you(r company) and are hard to impossible to get back as a customer. Every customer leaving has a little unnoticeable effect on you, but with time there will be so many people that you lost that all your tactics to lock your users in will fail.
Look up "boiling a frog"
Yeeeeah, but this isn't a dark pattern, though. That's what I'm saying.
The article really wants it to be, but... well, it's not. The option to log out remains in the same place as the rest of your account info, and the account info they are surfacing is actually useful and relevant to how much money you're spending. They are making it easier to subscribe, for sure, but also to cancel, which used to be pretty hidden away.
I get that this fits into a wider pattern for both MS and other major software companies, but if they inch towards the boiled frog at this pace we're probably fine.
Now, if they ever try (again) to make MS accounts mandatory for Windows or to move Windows to a sub, we can have this conversation. As others said below, when you try to inch people towards dealbreakers you can find yourself losing ground very quickly. Especially if a new comparable alternative surfaces at the same time.
As much as everyone pushes Linux, it’s not a suitable replacement in a lot of scenarios
But it is a suitable replacement in a lot of scenarios. Most scenarios. The only time it isn’t is in niche specialty situations.
It is in far more situations that it isn't
Nothing productive mentioning the situations it can't do while ignoring the massive amount of situations it can do far better
What are some of these scenarios?
Is there something like PowerToys Run for KDE? That's one of the utilities I would miss the most when switching to Linux.
Yeah, KRunner, and it's been around longer than Powertoys.
I never really used it on Windows so I don't know if it has all the same features, but there's probably some way to make whatever you need from it work.
The whole point of PowerToys was essentially to implement the features Windows was missing that the Linux DEs had already.
PopOS's COSMIC menu is like that I think (you can search files, the web, even stuff like turning volume up and down)? But I've never tried to run it outside of PopOS.
Bloat vs. Bloat. FIGHT!
So they want people to pull the plug instead of signing out properly. If they don't can this before it leaves the Beta Channel, they're going to need to beef up their tech support, because the many office workers who use Windows mostly as a launcher for Excel won't have a clue.
This sound like something they would totally do.
Next up, an ad anytime an executable is run!
Jesus Fucking Christ. They really want people to switch to Linux, don't they?
Microsoft should stop trying to become another Apple. This is not going to work.
as soon as they require a microsoft account to use versions of windows, they are apple... minus the mobile, but plus a metric shittone of things apple doesnt.
not that any of that is good, microsoft should die in a fire.. but theyve spent 20 years building an OS-as-a-service platform and its coming to fruition. they might be slow, but rest assured they will get their captured, vertically integrated audience.
You don’t need an apple account to use a Mac. If you just want to enter a username and set a password, that’s all you need to do. If you want everything synced between another Mac or iPhone and so on, sign into iCloud. But you don’t HAVE to, just skip it.
I guess the family computer will be entirely useless to everyone else in the house but me.
Great to know. Not that I ever fucking use that menu, opting to use the sleep button on my keyboard instead.
Anyone who can should switch to Linux. Most of us can, I have done so on my laptop. I have tried gaming on Linux too and it's fucking fantastic though I personally had an edge case issue that barely anyone will ever meet and had to go back. Do not let that discourage you from trying, however. Cyberpunk, as an example, was wonderful on Linux. No issues. As soon as my issues are sorted, something that will happen sooner or later, I will switch that pc in an instant!
When will VR be a thing in Linux?
The Quest is Android based, which is Linux based, so kinda if you're cool with two layers of megacorp between you and the kernel.
When Valve decides to.
Just install Linux already, get rid of this Microshit crap
WTF happened to Microsoft? What a fall. Is this a leadership thing?
They were always about screwing over consumers to make money. The only thing that changed is that they've become increasingly unsubtle about it.
Their way to screw customers with W2K was very persuasive. Such a clean UI, everything looking so relaxed and, eh, not commercialized. That startup sound. Those wallpapers.
Later I learned that that's also when they released those Unix services for Windows (may have swapped words), with which you really could have something practical with an X server and POSIX-compatible applications and so on.
And compared to W9x it was very stable.
I feel like they go through cycles of "hey, we just remembered we have de-facto monopolistic power, what are we doing with that? Let's do stuff with that" And "everyone got mad at us for anticompetitive practices again... Let's lay low and play nice until governments stop threatening to break us up"
Turns out you can make more money by reducing usability and user choice in an entrenched product because hardly anyone will baulk and jump ship to a different product.
Bruh
Question: if you skipped signing in to Microsoft when you set up Windows, does this f'upgrade still happen?
Windows key + L
Try and put an as on my keyboard ya stupid fucks
That’s lock, not sign out.
But a little autohotkey could probably take care of this for you.
Alt+F4
That's the lock screen combo, not sign out. To quickly sign out: win+x, u, i. i can be replaced with u for shutdown or r for restart.
Win+R, logoff, enter.
That's what I do every time, because I'm often working on a remote system and don't want to mis-click and shut it down.
Careful what you wish for...
Typo and all...
Yeah auto "correct" is the bane of my existence.
Its been years since Ive seen ads on my PC, the first windows ad I see I'm installing Linux
Win+D, Alt-F4.
Ewe 😆
It's what Microsoft opted to call their office suite now. So Office365 is now officially Microsoft 365 in an effort to acknowledge that your office work has now completely left their focus and they are only concentrating on themselves
its 'msoffice as a service'... and it sucks donkey balls. imagine tryin to manipulate a giant dataset in a web version of excel in a browser tab. annoying enough in the binary, impossible in 'office365-excel'
I mean, even desktop excel isn't great for that. Doubley so if you have to use dates/times and timezones
