When lunatics start talking about expelling all Israelis 'Back to Europe' instead of integrating them in a one-state solution
Jewish people and groups around the world need to issue strong rejection of Israel's actions.
If they don't, i'm very concerned that Israel's crimes will fall back on them in the future.
Let's look at sentiment from different groups
Young and liberal associate them with Israeli genocide.
Young and conservative is full of full on Nazis.
Politically they aren't worth much being concentrated in liberal strongholds.
When the old folks who are pro Israel go into the grounds dislike will be a rare point of agreement. Not a great position.
Unfortunately, the term "antisemitic" no longer has any kind of fixed meaning. I wish that weren't true, and I think it's a combination of forces that decided to misuse the word for several decades, that have now led to it being meaningless.
And you might be tempted to tell me what you think it means, and maybe I could agree with you, but when I turn on the TV tomorrow someone else will be using it in a totally different way that's inconsistent. Actually I'm kidding. I don't have a TV.
Israel is the most anti-Jewish state since Nazi Germany, and Palestinians are semitic.
I have never, ever heard of someone calling for the deportation of Israelis. I think anyone who wants that was probably anti-semitic already and has taken the objectively horrific actions of the IDF as a reason to hate Jewish people in general.
I have never, ever heard of someone calling for the deportation of Israelis.
Calling for their in-place deaths is not a lot better. You have heard that one several times, right?
This is the innate issue with creating an ethno-state, it makes it difficult to delineate grievances between ethnicity and state. I don’t know what the solution is, but I find it understandable that some people would agree with expulsion.
Is it really ethnic cleansing when the ethno-state they built continues to genocide their neighbors with the approval of the vast majority of its citizens?
By that logic that birth in Israel gives the right to stay there, this would in turn mean that this birth revokes the right to compensation for the ancestors that were murdered in the Holocaust or survived it and chose not to go back to Germany.
I don’t think anyone should have to be kicked out of the place they were born. How do you feel about german babies born in poland during ww2? Or YTs holding all the land in south africa?
If you read the first comment I made I said it wasn’t my belief but I understand why Palestinians would want Israelis to migrate back to Europe... However, I recognize that it’s not my people who are suffering from apartheid and genocide, and that those people have their own autonomy and will seek their own retribution.
Israelis chanting death to entire ethnicities but nooooo we can’t say anything that might hurt their poor lil feelings. Bunch of bollocks.
Should European-Americans all “just relocate” since we occupied North America from the Native Americans?
Otherwise I don’t see how you’re any different than the Israelites.
Well one happened in living memory and people are still living in the houses of displaced people in Palestine.
Zionism is similarly a genocidal fascist ideology. If these colonizers can’t handle freedom, democracy, equality, etc., then they should definitely return to their actual homes.
Idk, any Israeli citizen currently living there (that wasn’t born there) is a first generation colonizer, surely it’s not anti-semetic to call for that specific subgroup’s relocation, no?
The "GO BACK TO EUROPE, THE LAND OF YOUR ANCESTORS", "Israelis are committing ethnic cleansing by their existence", and "Genocide is Okay, Actually, if it's in response to another genocide" are widespread in this very fucking thread.
*It's ok to hate Israel
Yes because it's a nation which can have objectively bad characteristics and actions.
Fuck Israel, genocidal scum!
With climate change picking up the pace in the last few years, not sure how much longer this area will even be inhabitable.
Imagine if nature does what humankind could not - ends the whole miserable crisis.
Bold to claim climate change has anything to do with nature. It's just another, indirect genocide by the boards of all the corporations.
This thread is going so "it's bad to call for the genocide of israel" i had to re-read the meme.
It says "expell israelis to europe"... it doesn't say "kill'em all", wtf is wrong with this thread? Or am i missing something?
And no, a one state solution is not possible, as shown after over 70 years. Unless that state was to be ruled and controlled by the UN and all other military forces completely dismantled - so, not gonna happen.
It would be slightly less unrealistic if the UN was to enforce the Green Line, ensuring the West Bank and Gaza are entirely in control of Palestinians.
Both fail 'cos the UN has no teeth.
Full embargo on israel, especially on weapons, could work, but, again, hypocrites of this world won't let it happen.
I mean sure. Don't me a racist bigot. Of course.
But let's not pretend that religion isn't fueling the atrocities being committed on both sides of the conflict.
Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived in that area together for hundreds of years. This is a political conflict. The fucking Israeli settlers are psychopaths who roll into towns and start setting things on fire. It’s about territory, like all colonialist aggression.
Just gonna leave this here…
Religion does have a nonzero influence, but you're correct in that this is primarily a political conflict. Zionists murder Muslim and Christian Palestinians alike, and Fatah, a secular resistance movement, was the leading org of the Palestinian side for the longest time.
This map is extremely misleading. The green areas shows very different things in each map.
Religion isn't fueling it, it is just used as moral justification from both sides. If religion didn't exist the same thing would happen, but with a different form of moral justification.
I think you're wrong about religion. You're trying to say that religion is used as justification afterwards, but we know that real numbers of religious nuts will endorse horrible things because of their religious beliefs.
In other words, would there be less violence occurring in that region if nobody had any religious beliefs? I think the answer has to be "probably yes". We know this by talking to people, by looking at religious zealots throughout history. But even if our logic is correct, we cannot accurately guess how much less violence would be occurring if the region were full of atheists.
And in some sense our counterfactual thought experiment doesn't even matter because the reality is that region is of great religious significance and you can't really write that off as being irrelevant when several millennia prove that it is.
It's a ton of racism too. Darker skinned Jews get all sorts of discrimination, it's just not as extreme as someone who is Palestinian.
Lol the npc is strong with this one.
This is what I said and then someone blew up in my face about it when I said this in another thread/post. Why are people so hard headed when it comes to accepting reality I wonder.
Reality is an inconvenient Truth.
If it wasn't religion it would be race or ideology or language or eye color. You could press a button and eliminate religion from history and all of these problems would still exist.
It's my understanding that it is occurring naturally on its own, anyways?
A few reporting I've heard on Israel describes a state filled with dual-citizenship inhabitants that are used to first-world standard and would rather leave the country than deal with inconveniences. I oversimplify here, but who really wants to live in a genocidal state? Whether you're on board or not with the genocide, it's still a massive point of friction with neighbors.
but who really wants to live in a genocidal state?
About 10 million people apparently.
There's a significant issue of younger Israelis emigrating from Israel due to that friction, though I don't know the exact numbers.
Nuance and subtlety? Not on my lemmy!
There's no undo button here. You can't ungenocide by genocide, you can't ungay a gay and you can't unvote Trump. We can move only forward
Should nazis have been integrated into post-ww2 solution?
Zionism is similarly a genocidal fascist ideology. If these colonizers can't handle freedom, democracy, equality, etc., then they should definitely return to their actual homes. That's extremely generous. I don't know what else you would expect.
Libs running cover for zios is just another example of how liberalism supports fascism. And this actively contributes to anti-semitism.
Should nazis have been integrated into post-ww2 solution?
... fucking what
Is this some Morgenthau Plan insanity that I'm not genocidal enough to understand?
If these colonizers can’t handle freedom, democracy, equality, etc., then they should definitely return to their actual homes.
Oh, great, more 'Go back where you came from!' racism. Blut und boden. It seems the only thing that separates you from literal fucking Nazis is what team colors you wear.
Nope, fuck off.
While it is a lunatic statement, it isn't antisemitic. It's only antisemitic if it applies to jewish Palestinians that have a connection to the land. The jewish Israelis of European descent aren't connected to the land. Thus, this isn't antisemitic. But I do agree that it is a lunatic statement anyway.
EDIT: What I'm trying to say is that this is a nationalist stance not an antisemitic one. Those expecting all Israelis to leave like that aren't doing so because they're jews but because they're settlers. This is however, if you lack the reading comprehension, a position I haven't even claimed to support, but on the contrary, I even condemned it. What I am doing here is pointing out that not everything that relates to Israel has to boil down to antisemitism. That's a braindead position
While it is a lunatic statement, it isn’t antisemitic. It’s only antisemitic if it applies to jewish Palestinians that have a connection to the land. The jewish Israelis of European descent aren’t connected to the land. Thus, this isn’t antisemitic. But I do agree that it is a lunatic statement anyway.
Oh my fucking God, when did leftism become Blut und Boden nationalism?
Pretty sure it's the zios who are all about the blut and boden, even though they're foreign colonizers.
Just because I'm calling out the stupid claim that this is antisemitism it doesn't mean I'm supporting nationalism. It's just a stupid stance to scream antisemitism at everything especially when this is a purely nationalist issue, which again, I don't agree with. Those screaming that all Israelis should leave are doing so not because they're jews but because they're settlers lol
I live in North America, and I have European descent, and I have a connection to the land. I can trace my family back 13 generations in North America. But even if I could not, being born somewhere gives you a connection to the land. Unless you're Trump, I daresay this is a widely-agreed-on perspective. I don't think anyone should have to be kicked out of the place they were born.
And yet that's not what I argued at all. Maybe read that again. Of course it's insane to kick people out from the place they were born in. I just said that this has nothing to do with antisemitism but just pure nationalism. They're not asking them to leave because they're jewish but because they're settler. But again, this entire discussion is stupid anyway, since it's insane to expect people to leave in mass the place they were born in.
How do you feel about german babies born in poland during ww2? Or YTs holding all the land in south africa?
And maybe you should look at your own privileged life from a similar angle.
Yeah, I don’t know how to solve the issues of two separate families feeling ownership for the same location (fifty years ago, a Palestinian family including several living members was evicted from a home, and an Israeli couple moved in and then died, leaving their property to their children who played no role in taking the property from the Palestinians), but the solution is not to deport all of the Israelis from the region.
My first instinct would be that the government would need to build a LOT of desirable housing and offer a cash incentive to all current and former residents to cede ownership claims to other properties in exchange for the deed to one of the newer properties, but it immediately occurs to me that the wealth difference between the average Palestinian family and the average Israeli family is probably large enough that there would essentially be a self-selection bias. Especially given the fact that poverty and food insecurity reduce our ability to make good financial decisions.
I can’t think of a resolution for that situation that doesn’t involve someone feeling resentful. I’m not saying they have equal claim- but I know that the descendants of settlers are also people, who don’t want to be evicted from the (stolen) houses in which they were raised, and sowing resentment has not helped the region in the past.
I mean, eminent domain exists for this reason, but generally, compensation for stolen property is the norm because of the difficulty of dealing with inheritances and the like several steps removed from the original crime.
Recognizing the validity of residency is not the same as recognizing privilege. "You can stay under the same criteria as anyone else, because we aren't here to engage in ethnic cleansing" and "Your property is sacrosanct and cannot be touched under any circumstances" are two different concepts, after all.
Oh, there are a thousand ways they could improve their current way of handling it. I just don’t know what the best way would be, though it would definitely involve eminent domain. I guess a lottery system for determining which families get the ancestral home?
I used to take solace in the fact that people smarter than I were in charge of this, so they could do better than that as a solution, but I’m increasingly skeptical that they actually will.
By this logic Germans would not have had to give back the property that the Nazis robbed from the Jews. This is complete nonsense.
You cannot inherit legally, what was robbed from someone else. The legal ownership belongs to the original owners or their inheritors.
Any Israeli living in a house or on land they robbed, must either leave or buy it from the legitimate owners at a fair price. Irrespective of that the legitimate owners must also be fully compensated for the inability to use their land for all the years it was kept from them.
This is the legal and just way. Any other way invites more crimes and crimes against humanity as it rewards the criminals including by rewarding their descendants.
I can’t see descendants of settlers who are en masse being kicked out of their homes and heavily taxed coming together to peacefully build a society with the people whom they ceded their homes to and whom they’re paying those reparations. Can you? How would you go about it without making them so resentful that they either refuse to help rebuild or start attacking the institutions of the new single state?
I see the philosophical balance your solution would bring and it’s what I would want to do if I suddenly found myself a settler/settler’s descendant, but I don’t think enforcing it will lead to lasting peace. Perhaps with an education system that truly integrates children and teaches all of their history, without whitewashing any of it. But I think there’s a very strong cultural attachment in Israel to homeschooling, and don’t know if enforcing public schooling would create further resentment.
I'm sure the Israelis expelled from other countries where land was stolen from them will be pleased to hear this.
I'm sure that instances like these far outweigh the exact opposite
Palestinians that lived in what is now Israel are very old and very few in number now. Israelis won't feel safe with having Palestinians moving into their neighbourhoods after what happened on October 7 for at least another generation.
So right of return is dead now. Hamas killed it.
But there are the settlements. Israel has returned land from settlements to Palestinians in the past. They did this in on part of Palestine... Gaza. And there was never any problems from Gaza ever again after that, right? Nope, what happened was a plurality of Palestinians voted for Hamas and once they were in power there weren't any more elections in Gaza.
The problem mostly stems around poor leadership. Given their past experiences with attempts to exchange land for peace always ending in Palestinians seeing it as a sign of weakness, Israelis turned to Netanyahu who sucks. Palestinians have been convinced they should hate Israelis so they turn to Hamas (fascists who use hatred as tool to gain and maintain power). Fatah is an alternative, but they are corrupt and since it's easy to blame Israel for everything there's no incentive to root out corruption.
But there are plenty of Israelis that don't like Netanyahu. There are plenty of Palestinians that are against Hamas. You just won't hear about them much on lemmy because people here tend to think of countries as "good guys" and "bad guys" and discussing internal politics of countries goes against the simple narratives people like.
And we should not ignore the problem of Iran's government. There obviously isn't going to much of chance for peace if there's a country in the region that will send rockets to whatever faction is willing to fire them at Israel. Before October 7, we were very close to seeing official recognition of Israel by the Saudis and normalization of relations. This kind of thing isn't in Iran's interests and they have proxies that can attack Israel so...
October 7 was obviously beyond previous attacks but it's been an ongoing conflict between Israel and Iran's proxies for decades. So how do you convince an authoritarian theocratic regime to chill out on a country their whole propaganda system has villainized for decades? So... once again bad leaders.
So yeah... we could only wish this was just a land for peace kind of problem. That's hard to solve to be sure, but nothing compared to the complexities involved with the various factions throughout the region.
We've tried a 1 state solution for a long time
It's probably time to start aknowledging the goal of Zionism is to take land from others, and aknowledge that the Zionist have too much influence in politics.
It's either the Zionists go, or we just have to accept that Isreal wants to behave like a fascist colonizer and cut ties
It’s either the Zionists go, or we just have to accept that Isreal wants to behave like a fascist colonizer and cut ties
Cutting ties isn't advocating genocide against Israelis though.
If we look at the modern history of the reigon, the Zionist have been the agressors since NATO made the choice to just give the Palestinians' land to the Zionists, because the Zionists wanted the land and had an excuse/sympathy after WW2.
There hasn't been a political party in Isreal capable of being peaceful and fair with their neighbors.
Should European-Americans all “just relocate” since we occupied North America from the Native Americans?
Otherwise I don’t see how you’re any different than the Israelites.
Israel is allowed to literally cause a holocaust on the Palestinian people for the last 70+ years, backed by seemingly the majority of the political landscape and the population. Israelis chanting death to entire ethnicities but nooooo we can't say anything that might hurt their poor lil feelings. Bunch of bollocks. You lot are a bunch of clowns that are entirely too comfortable with the deaths of brown people.
literally cause a holocaust on the Palestinian people for the last 70+ years
Either you don't know what happened during the Holocaust, or you don't know what happens to Palestinians. These are in not the same, very far from it.
This is Holocaust relativism, bordering on denial.
That said. Palestinians are oppressed and deserve better. Your antisemitic incitement does not help them.
fuck zionists, but they aren't evil because they are Jewish, they are evil because their are zionists.
that's like saying fuck white people because there majority of Israelis are white.
and so many loud antizionist voices are Jewish.
if you conflate the two (what Israel wants) you just feed into the Israeli narrative that we all hate the jews and they can only be safe in apartheid genocidal Israel.
which is BS.
Israelis chanting death to entire ethnicities but nooooo we can’t say anything that might hurt their poor lil feelings. Bunch of bollocks. You lot are a bunch of clowns that are entirely too comfortable with the deaths of brown people.
"I just want to advocate for genocide! What's the harm in that, other than some hurt feelings!?"
Okay, Zionist.
Israel is allowed to literally cause a holocaust on the Palestinian people for the last 70+ years
Palestine's population has increased every single one of those 70+ years including the years after the October 7 attacks.
And? What's your point? Does that make killing of innocents in a stolen land justified? Are you brain damaged?
You fucking sound like an Uyghur genocide apologist ghoul.
Actually, technically, officially
“Israel” (declared may 1948) existed before “Palestine” (declared 1988).
The Jews and the Arabs have both been there for millennia, and the land has been contested since the dawn of recorded history.
It was originally called Canaan in the late Bronze Age (1500 - 1200 BCE).
Then in the Iron Age it was called Judea.
Then the Romans conquered the land and called it Syria Palestina (the land of Syrian “Phillistines”, aka uncultured/uncivilized people.)
Later that evolved into Palestine, which wasn’t codified until 1988, 40 years after the formation of Israel.
Both peoples have been there for millennia, both peoples have been committing atrocities on one another, and both peoples have a legitimate claim to the land.
This isn’t a simple black and white issue with good guys and bad guys. Claiming Israel is the bad guys because they’re the current aggressors, is like walking in on a fight and accusing the one who’s currently winning of being the whole reason for the fight in the first place.
You have to know the whole story, unbiased, looking from both sides, to understand a current conflict.
These lands and these people’s need outside arbitration.
They’re incapable of coming to a peaceful solution on their own. They’re too proud and they both feel too entitled and righteous.
One of them is currently more monied and has more support from imperialist governments, but they’ve both done horrible things to one another and ended millions of eachothers lives over millennia.
Israel is trying to put an end to it forever in the most effective way they can think of.
Violence.
It’s not fair.
If you study history, you will see not much about us is fair.
In recent times we have become abnormally civilized, but only just barely.
The meme itself is fine.
But shilling a one-state solution with it?
Not cool.
Wait, what's not cool about a one-state solution?
I'm not opposed to a two-state solution, but generally a one-state solution is considered the more radical option, so I picked it to emphasize that I'm not asking anyone to be pro-Israel.
One state with equal rights solution is the least popular among the people living there. Nobody there wants it.
Two states have a much better acceptance.
I don't know what you thoght when typing up the post, but I do know what I understood when I read it.
A one-state solution is "never" going to work because that's the current solution. There's one state of Israel and no state of Palestine. And currently, Israel hasn't show itself to be all too nice to the palestinians, what with the settling, apartheid and recently as transparent genocide as it gets.
What a one state solution will do is keep the current oppressive power structures. Meaning nothing will truly change. The Israeli press has shown itself to be very anti-Palestinian, and a lot of the population is indoctrinated to think Jews are entitled to settle the land at all costs towards the Palestinians.
There are a lot of examples on YouTube of 'regular' Israelis talking of it in the most gruesome and off-putting words imaginable. One might call it cognitive dissonance, but it's pure indoctrination.
And breaking such indoctrination, cultivated potentialy since the dawn of the sigle state, takes both time and effort.
Effort which is most lukely to succeed were the Palestinians given their own, fully autonomus, UN-recognized and in all aspects equal state free from Israeli control of all types.
Why?
Because Israel has shown itself to be unworthy of having authority over Palestinians.
Systematic oppression needs an equally systematic way of undoing it. Any attepmts at molding the current power structures are unlikely to stop the mistreatment of Palestinians.
The current Israel was and continues to be a one-state solution. A failed solution, that lead to the current genocide. The only way in which such a solution would work is through radical changes to the power structures of the current State, or a new one altogether. One with new laws, a new government, artificially made to overrepresent Palestinians to try to undo the equally artificial, but ingrained in Israeli society opression of them.
Previous such solutions have had a very bad success rate. Such an artificial state is truly like a house of cards. A bad compromise. Neither side is happy for a long time - both feel entitled to more than they get.
So in my humble opinion, one could say that Israel has been given a chance to govern the Palestinians. What they ended up doing is commiting systematic opression a d as of late, a very transparent genocide against them.
If you ask me, any goodwill they've gotten to that end was rescinded as of late, and anything less than a two-state solution will be rewarding the perpetrators.
Obligatorily: I'm not saying that Israelis are all genocidal maniacs, or activelly commiting genocide. But the state, their state, is. And such a state cannot reasonably be expected to stop of its own accord or by a finger-wag from the UN. Since the figer-wagging has been done consistently for quite some time now, way before the recent escalations.
two state solution is never going to work.
Israel is already a one state solution, as it contols all the territory and if commited to apartheid and genocide.
one democratic state is the only viable solution, just end apartheid, expand the racist right of return.
So fighting genocide with ethnic cleansing.
Crazy idea, but maybe we should end our dependence on oil? Wars cost money and we fund those wars when we buy oil. We pretend to be upset when we see the suffering caused by war, but then vote for whoever we think will bring down the price of gas and then pretend we don't understand why there's war in an oil rich region of the world.
Thanks to Netanyahu and his goonies (such as Trump and Starmer) the word anti-semitist has lost all meaning.
Maybe to you? It’s pretty clear. The fact that this inoffensive meme says not to be anti semitic and you had to jump in with a reason to justify and blame someone else for the anti semitism is telling
Edit: it’s wild how many bigots this thread pulled in, downvoting people for saying don’t be an anti semite
I don't think just to me. Extreme lobbying has brought us to a situation where they are now labelling genocide criticism as anti-semitic and illegal. So yea that builds some unpleasant reflex in people and its clear who is to blame for.
Antisemitism is hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious or racial group.
Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement with the goal of the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisraʾel, “the Land of Israel”)., where antizionism is the opposition to Israeli nationalism.
Everyone keeps conflating these two, and it's quite annoying. And I'll say it louder for the people in the back: OPPOSING ISRAEL'S INDISCRIMINATE GENOCIDE IS NOT ANTISEMITISM. It is in no reference to Jews, either as a religion or a race, it is towards the Israeli government and their nationalistic followers that allow for the slaughter of men, women, and children.
Any criticism of the Israeli government, no matter how milquetoast, gets called anti-semitic by defenders, folks shouldn't be shocked when people shrug after a while, say, "guess I'm anti-semitic now", and really let loose.
That's a very popular strawman you have there.
Israelis have been protesting the war and the Israeli government lots and consistently, including members of the IDF.
Not sure how that's salient to my point but okay.
Any criticism of the Israeli government, no matter how milquetoast, gets called anti-semitic by defenders, folks shouldn’t be shocked when people shrug after a while, say, “guess I’m anti-semitic now”, and really let loose.
Uh, except for the bit where 'letting loose' is 'revealing that they actually are antisemitic'. I generally assume that people, and especially left-leaning people, aren't antisemitic even if Israel critiques them as such; to find out that a very nonzero amount actually are, and a much larger amount are willing to endorse or tolerate those antisemitic views, is deeply disturbing.
generally assume that people, and especially left-leaning people, aren’t antisemitic even if Israel critiques them as such
Aa a German leftist I cannot assume that. For example, German leftists placed a bomb at a Holocaust memorial event in a jewish community center in 1969. And during the hijacking of an Air France flight the RZ separated the passengers and kept only those with Israeli passports or "jewish sounding names" etc. as hostages (German Wikipedia, German article with quotes from RZ members).
This is the same logic as "people have been calling me a Nazi, so now I am calling myself a Nazi".
I hold equal disdain for all Abrahamic Religions.
They are a plague.
This is brain dead thinking that ignores attorcities committed by both secular and atheistic regimes such as:
Stalin and USSR Maoist China Colonial states (France as one example)
And it's all bad. But I was raised in the Evangelical Church. I read the bibble cover to cover 4 times before I was 15. Was on track to become a preacher. It was the hypocrisy of the church and the people in it that made me into the merrily militant atheist I am today.
Go argue 20th century geopolitical body counts with some poli-sci major. We're shitting on organized religion right now.
I remember some kid in elementary school once said to me "I'm not racist because I hate all races equally!"
He thought he was super clever to come up with that.
Being well is not a type of disease
Ok... And? The meme is talking about antisemitism not anti-religiosity
Albert Einstein is 100% correct. Read his letter to the NY Times.
Care to post it here?
i think it's this:
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/einstein/1948/12/02.htm
Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.
The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin's political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.
Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin's behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.
The public avowals of Begin's party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.
A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants240 men, women, and childrenand kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.
The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.
Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.
During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.
The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.
The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a "Leader State" is the goal.
In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin's efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.
The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.
ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ, HANNAH ARENDT, ABRAHAM BRICK, RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO, ALBERT EINSTEIN, HERMAN EISEN, M.D., HAYIM FINEMAN, M. GALLEN, M.D., H.H. HARRIS, ZELIG S. HARRIS, SIDNEY HOOK, FRED KARUSH, BRURIA KAUFMAN, IRMA L. LINDHEIM, NACHMAN MAISEL, SEYMOUR MELMAN, MYER D. MENDELSON, M.D., HARRY M. OSLINSKY, SAMUEL PITLICK, FRITZ ROHRLICH, LOUIS P. ROCKER, RUTH SAGIS, ITZHAK SANKOWSKY, I.J. SHOENBERG, SAMUEL SHUMAN, M. SINGER, IRMA WOLFE, STEFAN WOLFE.
New York, Dec. 2, 1948
I really don't understand people who think a one state solution is possible anymore. I'm not sure if it ever was but certainly at this point it's not viable.
Nothing is "viable" if you just extrapolate the present, except I guess genocide.
To take a step back, moral ambition and political courage are necessary. If Ireland could reach a Good Friday Agreement, if South Africa could overcome apartheid, so can Palestine/Israel.
A plurinational democratic state with equal rights for all, with a truth and reconciliation process, and with strong international support is the only way the middle east can ever reach peace.
And if we are putting on big boy pants and imagining a better world, why not envision the Mediterranean Union becoming a force for democratization and stabilization allowing the free movement of people throughout the region.
When realism is dystopian, fuck realism and pick utopia. Otherwise, why even live?
Yes but for as brutal as South Africa could be they weren't in the throes of active genocide. The overwhelming majority of their people weren't okay with the extermination of entire races. Or at least they didn't say so out loud, proudly. Expecting them to live in harmony with the people whose blood they are braying for seems foolhardy to me. Expecting those whose children have been murdered in mass in front of them to just politely join hands with the people who celebrated the murder of their children with Glee seems again, foolhardy.
I mean, the situation is so fucked that saying anything is 'viable' at this point is a pipe dream. But I mentioned a one-state solution to emphasize that I'm not asking anyone to be pro-Israel, or even ask that Israel, as a state, should be allowed to continue to exist. My opposition is to advocacy for genocide and ethnic cleansing.
Israel is already a one state solution, it contols all the territory from the river to the sea, and commiting apartheid and genocide.
End apartheid and you have a single state where everyone is free.
One apartheid state is no viable.
I may be naive but why wouldn't a UN governed state not be in the best interest for all parties? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_separatum_(Jerusalem)
The Mandate for Palestine was pretty much that and it utterly failed.
„UN governed state“ means occupation and foreign rule. What country wants to send soldiers and police to a country where both major populations will hate you.
Oh geeze, an United Nations governed state is an entirely different can of worms. Though one does wonder what difference there will be between that and just Israel considering the amount of influence they have on the UN.
So many people on the left for whom jew = Zionist = fascist Israeli. It plays right in the hand of all the actual right-wingers and fascists supporting Israel. Appalling and stupid.
Where are these phantom lefties that think of Jewish = Zionist. Stop making shit up.
Most reasonable people out there know that being Jewish =\ zionists. There are plenty of Jewish people out there that are against Israel. It's the Israeli government that has tried their best to conflate the two in order to protect their own murderous regime.
Where are these phantom lefties that think of Jewish = Zionist. Stop making shit up.
You might be having in-group bias if you cannot see this happening.
They are literally everywhere, from prominent left wing politicians to ordinary people (I’m in Europe BTW). It’s literally splitting the left down the middle in many European countries.
I get the sentiment and I'd agree, but it would be so much easier if not over half the Israeli population is now supporting a genocide. You think they know better, of all people
Yeah, Israeli public opinion is not helping any moral or sane cause. But that's still no reason for those few human beings on this planet who are still sane to embrace racism.
Oh we out here making friends in these comment sections today.
But do the Israelis WANT to integrate though ?
No. But neither did the American South.
At some point, reality forces the issue.
If it's antisemitic to call out and despise those that support the genocide of innocent children and civilians, then I'm a proud antisemite. That hill I WILL die on.
The meme is literally, explicitly, saying the opposite. That's not antisemitic.
No, that's not antisemitic in the least. Israel is committing a genocide, and it should be treated as a pariah state and all measures possible employed against it to pressure it to cease.
What is antisemitic is, as mentioned in the title and seen advocated by people in this very comment section, advocating for the ethnic cleansing and genocide of Israel, especially when combined with the bizarre notion that Israel-born Israelis can just be shipped back to where their ancestors came from in Europe, like some bizarre mirror image of the Nazis in the 1930s planning to ethnically cleanse Germany of Jews by shipping them to where their ancestors came from in Palestine.
with the bizarre notion that Israel-born Israelis can just be shipped back to where their ancestors came from in Europe
The majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi who came from Middle Eastern countries. They are also the political base of Likud and other right wingers. Itamar Ben Gvir is an Iraqi Jew for example. The Ashkenazi (European) Jews are more likely to be center and left.
Of course Western activists don't know any of that. For them Israelis = white = European = evil, Palestinians = brown = good is the only model to understand the world. Palestinians and Jewish Israelis are indistinguishable just from looks. Both have pretty varied phenotypes from blond to black.
and all measures possible employed against it to pressure it to cease.
Including Palestinian military action and guerilla war, correct?
Pretty big difference between despising someone and wishing for an ethnic cleansing.
Shit can I get expelled back to Britain? They got their own problems but fuck, my family is in the domesday book, can I go back?
Though I see few anti-semitic remarks, other than the ones about Palestinians.
You are misrepresenting the meaning of the term antisemitism. It's a more polite and scientific sounding word for Jew hatred. That's it's only meaning, it has nothing to do with Palestinians. Look it up.
Trying to soften and twist the meaning of antisemitism is antisemitic.
In general, or in this thread?
In general, anti-Palestinian racism is more common here in the West, yes.
In this thread, there are multiple people, who are highly upvoted, who are making claims like "Genociding Israelis is okay if Israel committed genocide first" and "Their ancestors came from Europe, so even though they were born in the Levant, they aren't REAL natives and it's okay to deport them", both of which are deeply antisemitic.
So glad the literal antisemites came out on this post to play apologist for ethnically cleansing Israeli Jews 'back where they came from' in Europe for the crime of being born in Israel. I'm trying to think of how this differs from the Nazis wanting to deport Jews to Israel, but I'm coming up with a blank.
I guess there must be something substantially different, though, because obviously these brave anti-imperialists would never be antisemites. Even when they advocate for literal fucking genocide based on the very compelling and principled argument of "Israel committed genocide first!" /s
Typical Israeli apologist, dreaming of a hypothetical genocide of Israeli Jews when there's an actual genocide being committed by the zionists. Do you ever get tired of being a victim?
All of the people I've seen advocating that are talking about the people who were not born in Israel.
Is it really ethnic cleansing when the ethno-state they built continues to genocide their neighbors with the approval of the vast majority of its citizens?
By that logic that birth in Israel gives the right to stay there, this would in turn mean that this birth revokes the right to compensation for the ancestors that were murdered in the Holocaust or survived it and chose not to go back to Germany.
You cant have it both.
Hating on the Israeli government is bound to attract "the other group who has similar things to say and a bit more". Now suddenly we are all group into the anti-semite barrel by Israel. Master class false dichotomy there.
I have a solution: we force the region to start respecting human rights or we start incarcerating offenders. We don't need to build a bunch of condos for the palestinians, we don't need to give them lawyers or outsource their legal disputes, we don't need to help either side militarize against the other: we just need to hold them to a bare minimum standard by force and they'll sort the shit out in a few decades.
This is what the ICJ was made for. These are the rules we all agreed to play by after WWII. They fucked around, it should be the right of anybody and everyone who wants to interfere to go in and make them find out.
BTW human rights should include not being segregated into walled off districts.
I have a solution: we force the region to start respecting human rights or we start incarcerating offenders.
How?
Are we going to invade?
Or is it more likely that it ends up a North Korea situation where those who are in charge of such atrocities just don't go to countries that will arrest them?
Problem is who gave us right to force people in the other side of the world to do this?
The U.-Fucking-N. and the ICJ. After WWII we came together and decided the rules. Genocide is justification for invasion under the rules.
puts on tin foil hat We’re being played by powerful outside agents (🇷🇺?) who are trying to stoke division that foments racial tensions, genocide, and international warfare, and ultimately inciting instability and civilian disillusionment with western governments and democracy by using money and/or blackmail to coerce politicians, lawmakers, and the media to conflate the difference between perceptions of the actions of a (theocratic) government and perceptions of the actions of historically persecuted ethnic and religious groups (among other simultaneous informational attacks not related to the meme but related to other perceived strategic weak points in our nations and cultures) in order for these outside agents to tactically manipulate the politicians, media, and governments they have on their payroll into mutually assured destruction such that the outside agents end up on top with global domination
No. People are just legitimately stupid.
Just leave the region alone for fucks sake. "Oh I think we could just make palestine secular and it would solve the issue," "oh lets unite israel and palestine into one state" do nobody hear themselves??
Idk, any Israeli citizen currently living there (that wasn't born there) is a first generation colonizer, surely it's not anti-semetic to call for that specific subgroup's relocation, no?
any Israeli citizen currently living there (that wasn’t born there) is a first generation colonizer
Israel is a country of refugees. They came in many waves fleeing from pogroms in the Russian Empire, persecution in Yemen, the Holocaust, the Farhud in Iraq, and so on. They didn't come to a land of opportunity to become rich like in the USA. They came looking for a safe place to live, not a persecuted minority for once, a place that would have them. Most did not have any other place to go.
Saying that Israelis can be expelled 'back to Europe' is not only ethnic cleansing, but utterly insane and racist besides.
Many of those immigrants are not European (or North American).
The majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi from the Middle East.
By that logic that birth in Israel gives the right to stay there, this would in turn mean that this birth revokes the right to compensation for the ancestors that were murdered in the Holocaust or survived it and chose not to go back to Germany.
You cant have it both.
Also the Palestinians who were also born on that land and driven out, should then not have the right to return? This is just Imperialism and Apartheid with extra steps.
Unless the current illegal occupiers buy the land from the legitimate owners at a fair price and compensate the legitimate owners for the time of the illegal occupation, they have no right to remain on that land.
This is the innate issue with creating an ethno-state, it makes it difficult to delineate grievances between ethnicity and state. I don't know what the solution is, but I find it understandable that some people would agree with expulsion.
Is it really ethnic cleansing when the ethno-state they built continues to genocide their neighbors with the approval of the vast majority of its citizens?
Is Israel paying for people to immigrate to Israel with the purpose of expanding the Israeli state not an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians?
I don't think you can really say these beliefs are born out of antisemitism, not when the Israeli state purposely engages in ethnic superiority based policy.
Regarding 5: If you were in Argentina in the 50s, would you support a policy of "go back where you came from" to Nazi immigrants? Because setting aside the ethnic side, there's no way the vast majority of first-generation immigrants to Israel aren't hopelessly Zionist.
Also you're a racist for constantly conflating "Israeli" and "Jewish person" throughout this conversation and attempting to project that conflation on me. Thanks.
Reminder that I asked a question to clarify whether or not my position, which is not the same as the position your meme is criticizing. So I don't really see why you think it's necessary to attribute that position to me.
I'll repeat what I said specifically so you can clarify whether or not MY specific, NUANCED position is also problematic.
So, based on the new evidence, I'll even adjust what I'm saying. Is it fair, then, to call for the relocation of dual citizens, that come from countries like the US or UK, who moved into the country as an adult after visiting Israel on their birthright trip? People who I would consider to be first generation colonizers? Forget those other people. I am not a bad faith nazi trying to get you to conflate the two groups and walk into some gotcha question. Just answer the actual question that I am posing.
I've always felt that the new Left's obsession with Israel veils a great deal of unprocessed anti-Semitism, twisted in knots over the rules of identity and when it's "okay" to have one. In the 60s and up until pretty recently, it was the KKK and John Birch Society that hated Israel. Leftists, like Noam Chomsky, were defenders of Israel.
At its core is the idea that "Jews aren't victims anymore, but they're allowed to contribute to the culture and express their identity as former victims of persecution, and that's wrong." Muddled up in this belief is all kinds of unpleasantness. Jewish people get to have their cake an eat it too, right? So it's better to take the side of a population that has been so brutalized and manipulated that they actually believe in martyrdom.
I saw an anti-Israel march in my city not long ago. All these white "anarchist" kids were yelling "Mothers, daughters, all are martyrs!" I see little difference between them and neonazi skinhead punks.
white “anarchist” kids were yelling “Mothers, daughters, all are martyrs!” I
The alliance between progressives and Islamists is frightening and cursed.
Self styled Anarchists flying the nationalist flag of the Palestinians is another oxymoron.
I saw an anti-Israel march in my city not long ago. All these white “anarchist” kids were yelling “Mothers, daughters, all are martyrs!” I see little difference between them and neonazi skinhead punks.
Just for being anti-Israel? What?
You….really need to expand on what you’ve said because right now you sound like a fucking monster.
I do not trust the anti-Israel sympathies, or should I say "Pro-Palestine" sympathies, of most people who are not directly involved in these places. They do not seem genuine to me. I'm sorry if that makes me sound like a monster. I've read Finkelstein and plenty of Chomsky, too. I think Norm is a monster for telling Israelis they should leave, and I think he is making things far worse for Palestinians. There is something very self-serving about the majority of Israeli sentiment I sense from my own political side of the aisle.
I doubt this will be a popular opinion here, and I don't think there's much to be gained from having to explain why I feel this way.
(Yes I saw your other reply, thank you. I want to branch off of that conversation to address something else you said here.) What makes anti-genocide protesters “anarchist kids”? Did they say as much? Also if you don’t mind for additional context, what region are you living in/describing?
It was a superficial judgment based on the appearance which they consciously chose to represent themselves with. They could be a number of other political ideologies, but it was a lazy lean on the customs of people I know and have known.
Genocide is the intentional, orchestrated elimination of a people based upon their ethnic identity or genetic makeup. If Israel wanted what the nazis wanted, or actually, let's use a more recent and much older example: What the Turks wanted to happen to the Kurds, there would be no "ceasefires," no "accords," no "settlements." Because if it were actually genocide, Palestinians would not be able to name their children with Palestinian names, they would have no division of land to live on, they would not be permitted to call themselves Palestinians, and, most importantly, they'd all be dead.
The use of the word "genocide" in this issue reinforces my belief that there is a subtle uninterrogated form of anti-Semitism that revolves around this issue. It feeds the current attacks on Jewish students at liberal arts schools in the United States. The word is chosen consciously to compare "what happened to them (the Jews)" with what "they are now doing (to Palestinians)." It is equivocation, and dishonest, and weird.
Weirder still, where are the protests concerning ethnocides and genocides of, say, the Uyghurs? There are one million of them currently residing in concentration camps without being accused of anything (as if it mattered). They are not permitted to grow their beards or express their culture freely. There is a network of cameras across China that can recognize people based upon their ethnic characteristics, which are used to oppress the various minority groups that have not been thoroughly Sinicized.
I sometimes feel like the political ideologies of my country are influenced mainly by determining what you aren't. As I said, hatred of Israel in the 1960s was a KKK thing. Overall the Left appreciated their liberal policies (they are the only nation in the Middle East/N. African region that permits a Pride Parade, even still) and saw Palestine as fueled by the petroleum monarchs and a horribly backwards form of religion. I read somewhat recently of a Conservative Party minister railing about the injustices of the Chinese against the Uyghurs, ostensibly as part of a wider anti-China platform.
I do not trust in the majority of progressive interest in the Israel-Palestine issue. I think there's only one solution, which is a one state solution. I am blown away that people on my side of the spectrum consider this "monsterish."
As long as:
Stolen land is given back, and criminals prosecuted,
Sure.
You want to prosecute criminals responsible for an insane amount of death? Believe it or not, anti-Semitic.
You want justice for people whose lives have been systematically destroyed over 70+ years? Believe it or not, anti-Semitic.
This person actually believes they're being brilliant suggesting a one state solution but is that really for the benefit of the Palestinian people? Or is it to further push save Israel agenda since everyone can now see their true nature.
So I, a jew who has never even been to Israel, who's ancestors left centuries ago, am responsible for the state of Israel in any fucking way?
Jewish does not mean Israeli... At all.
Ummm I never said that.
I agree that Jewish does not mean Israeli.
I'm specifically talking about individuals involved in war crimes that they should be held accountable.
So I, as a jew, who has never even been to Israel, don't feel threatened by the original comment at all, because I'm not an Israeli settler and haven't kicked anyone off their property, and thus don't have to fear having to give anyone their stolen property back.
I'm onboard with that, man. Like I said, I'm down with everything up to the very destruction of the Israeli state. It's just ethnic cleansing and antisemitism I'm opposed to.
Why not destroy the state and create one where everyone has equal rights? A state anchored in the supremacy of one group is an apartheid state. It's clear as day which side you're on supporting such a state.