Tankies delusional-posting are quite funny
Tankies delusional-posting are quite funny
"Yes don't vote at all to get rid of fascism"
334 comments
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There's two sides to this argument, and one is wrong and the other is right.
One says "Both sides do it, so it's okay that my side does it."
The other says "Your side does it. A few on my side do it, too. But it doesn't matter, we should stop both sides from doing it."
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"It happens on both sides! you don't condemn it on your side, isnt that hypocritical?!"
"I... Actually condemn everyone doing it and I think me and you should look for and support people who don't support this heinous thing."
"..."
"So, do you condemn the people on your side doing it as wel-"
"But look at this person who has done it on your side!"
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"Perfect is, in fact, the enemy of good, and if we can't have perfect then we shouldn't settle for good!"
I do so wish their fucking around would limit the finding out to just them, but alas.
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No, flipflops don't work at all. My uncle's neighbors former roommate only has 1 toe, so they solve nothing.
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Am I correctly interpreting this to mean you think tankies threw the US presidential election? If so, do you have evidence that this is the case?
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your bait is rotten and stinks, you know how to read. "Interpreting" = strawmanning/otherwise putting words in my mouth. Do I think they contributed? Absolutely. Dipshits are everywhere and many of them happen to reside here, and I read many comments from the usual tankie trolls doing nothing but shit-talk Harris as often as they could on Lemmy in the leadup to the election, which probably influenced a nonzero number of peoples opinions (again, dipshits everywhere). Does that in any way imply I think they're solely responsible?
please take your chum elsewhere, thank you. I hear 4chan is back up these days, now you run along.
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I don't think that is what OP is referring to. I interpreted it as the strange measuring stick tankies use to compare the democrats and the republicans. Even accelerationists agree that the Republicans are way worse than the democrats.
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Even if OP isn't advocating thta, I am.
Tankues hve advocated to not vote democrat over gaza and less people voted for hillary than for biden.
Of course there's no way proving this is true (and it shouldn't, since voting should be nonymous) and it certainly was until a certain part also racism and sexism, but the intensity of the calls to boycott dems and Harris having way less votes than Biden is suspicious.
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Ugh. Such a tired, stupid argument.
It doesn't matter whether tankies actually threw the election to Trump.
THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER THEIR ACTIONS WOULD CAUSE THAT TO HAPPEN WHEN THEY CHOSE TO DO SO.
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Both sides'd themselves into proto-fascism. And taking us along for the ride.
Fucking morons.
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Why are you blaming leftists for Trumps win? We make up like 1% of the population, tops. You should instead point the finger at Republicans for voting for him. Or the Dems for running a totally weak and ineffectual campaign. (Or how about the oligarchs who only want to divide us so that they can rob us blind?)
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Absolutely. Trump only goes more insane. At least with Kamala we would have had a chance to push left policies, and they wouldn't be going directly to fucking fascism, unlike t-Rump.
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I always just post this article.
Literally the first fucking sentence.
Vice President and Democratic presidential candidate Kamala Harris said Washington will continue to pressure Israel and other players in the Middle East to reach a ceasefire deal in Gaza
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Maybe there would be more than Side A and Side B if we had voting reform and Democrats didn't systematically sue third-parties off the ballot.
People (not just authoritarians) criticize Side A because they have way more tallies than most have been led to believe. Everybody who pays any amount of attention knows that Side B has a lot of tallies. What good comes out of specifically pointing out the tallies of Side B when literally everybody on non-conservative social media is blasted with the knowledge of those tallies? If you want somebody to preach to the choir or inform you about Side B's tallies, just ask. If you think people paying attention to or being informed about Side A's tallies is dangerous and harmful, just say so.
Side A tolerates third-world exploitation (labor, resources, goods) that the US economy still relies on, they tolerate the US economy still relying on slavery and child slavery, they tolerate or support US imperialism and regime change, they refuse to address or come up with solutions for the fresh water crisis (by 2030, demand will exceed supply by 40%), they refuse to properly address many issues that the US people face (the economy, the housing crisis, the health care crisis, etc.), they support harmful policies like fracking, they have allowed corporations/et. al to go out of control under their power, and they generally have not advocated for strong regulation and protections for the American people. Yes, Side B is undesirable, but Side A is insufficient.
If Side A's hands are always tied in a two-party system, then they should impeach the bad actor, push voting/election reform and term limits, and hold fair and democratic primaries and elections. Side A not propping up extreme right-wing candidates (like Trump) and telling the media to take them seriously would be nice, too.
1/3 of Americans don't vote and plenty of people only voted Kamala because they didn't want Trump (and there are other factors than Gaza, misogyny, and Jill Stein voters at play to explain why people didn't come out to vote for her). Plenty of people probably don't want Trump (or anybody like him) if they've been paying any attention and didn't fall for the propaganda.
Side A would get bonus points for not alienating progressives, for supporting the loosening of requirements for ballot access (and stop engaging in lawfare to restrict ballot access), and for supporting fair and inclusive debates on public property where they would have to address perspectives and topics that are potentially uncomfortable or inconvenient for them.
I realize there are plenty of unserious actors who run for president (like Kayne West) who would try their best to poison open debates and abuse expanded ballot access, but there has to be some fair mechanism to filter (openly racist and insane) people like him out. Perhaps a competency test of sorts with independent observation would be appropriate.
And I realize a lot of people find Jill Stein to be harmful (and individuals like her), but maybe we shouldn't arrest her (or any other presidential candidate) and put her in a black site, shackling her to a chair for 8 hours, because she wanted to be present at the presidential debate?
This is an unprecedented time for the American people, with human rights and due process in jeopardy. We are facing multiple serious crises with no solutions or progress in sight - voting and election reform, in addition to term limits, are all urgent and necessary.
I don't care if you want to vote for Side A no matter what — we can only suppress criticism and stay in denial of major issues for so long before (e.g.) the fresh water crisis hits us and humanity is completely and utterly unprepared.
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I appreciate the depth of your response. You're right, critiquing Side A doesn't mean endorsing Side B. It means demanding better from those who claim to represent us. The meme calls out false equivalency, but that shouldn't silence legitimate concerns about the system itself.
It’s like this: if the house is on fire, I’ll vote to put out the biggest flame, but I’m also going to ask why the fire keeps spreading, and who’s refusing to fix the wiring. Reform isn’t a distraction; it’s how we stop the next blaze before it starts.
Thanks for adding a more nuanced layer to the conversation.
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Republicans also use 3rd party as a spoiler and to siphon off D voters too.
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Whether they use them intentionally or not, we need voting reform. In the 2024 election, third-parties barely made a dent — they weren't a spoiler.
FPTP is exactly why third-parties can be a "spoiler". There are plenty of valid alternative voting systems to explore that are way more fair and democratic.
And it doesn't sound very democratic of the Democratic Party to repeatedly and systematically restrict ballot access through lawsuits. Ballot access is hard enough for third-parties to achieve in most states.
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There were a bunch of stories of Republicans helping Cornel West's campaign last year to act as a spoiler.
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People who refuse to vote when there is a clearly superior option deserve whatever the greater evil brings forth when they win.
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Even when there isn't a clearly superior option; there's no excuse to not vote in the U. S. when the right to vote is such a pivotable portion of your history. We are barely over a half century away; only a mere 60 years. Unconscionable.
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On the one hand, corporatist party, on the other, literal fascists. Yes, clearly there is no superior option.
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If voting is a right, then surely not voting is also a right. You seem to be confusing it with the word "responsibility."
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Non-voters are beneath Trump supporters in my opinion. They're the lowest of the low. A complete failure to understand their civic duty that a ton of people died to allow them to have. At least Trump supporters get involved. In the worst, dumbest possible way, but involved nonetheless.
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Aka "have the day you voted for".
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People who voted for the lesser evil is still voting for evil
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"I would proudly vote for Hitler if slightly to the right of Hitler was on the ballot". Good fucking job, you're voting for Hitler. If you vote for Hitler you also deserve slightly to the right of Hitler.
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Lol. You sweet summer child.
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And not voting is the greatest evil.
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Given that you can act (in this case vote), your hands are more dirty permitting the worse evil to win through inaction.
You don't get to clean your hands of things when you have the power to act to effect the outcome.
So saying "People voted for evil" is a selective self-benefiting myopia. Vote abstainers are not virtuous, they are a narcissists.
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And people who didn't vote for the lesser evil could have helped avoid the greater evil, but chose not to.
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In Sweden the far-right tried to play this game. They started chirping about the social democrats being rasist and made a list on like an A4 with names and events. Then the same was done to them, matching the font, their list was taken up a skylift and holding one end they folded it out to the ground in a television program.
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In the US, the 'left' would just amplify the voice of the far-right.
Good on Swedish voters for being less stupid than we are.
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Well, I would not give them that much credit. The majority governing coallition is with the far-right. They were clear before the election they were going to work with the far-right. They have a common platform with the far right which has a large overlap with e.g. Trumps; mass deportation of immigrants (like for reasons like being a victim of a crime), slashing government agencies, extreme restrictions on free speech, and so on. It is just a bit slower here when it comes to reaching their goals.
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Based
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Inb4 tankies go: "Abraham Lincoln was a racist, LiTEraLlY tHe sAmE as the southern slave owners" 🤡
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Let's not forget the current right winged idiocy claiming he's a current Republican and the Democrats were racist.
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They'd campaign hard against Lincoln for being a defender of slavery, despite him being the only anti-slavery candidate with a chance of winning in 1860.
They don't care how many marginalized groups are beat, raped, starved, and murdered, so long as they can jerk themselves off over how pure (or nonexistent) their ballot was.
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Here's the tankie of the time. Liberals would be out defending the slave owners rights for free market ideals and the law . Possibly demanding that more women should be allowed to hold the whip. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_(abolitionist)
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Wait I'm lost, are we talking foreign invasions done by the US vs foreign invasions done by China? Or the number of victims of Hamas vs the victims of the IDF? What are we counting here? Military bases abroad?
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Talking about how some people deny or justify the horrendous things done by Lenin, Stalin, Mao, the Kim Dynastie, Malenkov, Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Ulbricht, Honecker, Guevara, Ho Chi Min, and so on and all their helpers, because others also did horrendous things and both have to be called out for it. Justification of unneccesary murdering shows you are in favor for that which is unacceptable
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Who killed more Asians: US or Mao?
Hamas are arguably a gift for Israel.
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If we take "kill" to mean like manslaughter through poor policy and famine, probably Mao, by an order of magnitude. But I'm guessing that's not what you're thinking about, because that's kind of a silly comparison. It's like asking "who killed more Americans, Mao or the US", to which the answer is both obvious and completely uninteresting.
So I'm gonna take it to mean "murder", like the killing of landlords during the cultural revolution. And then it's actually kind of close, and I'm not sure who's killed more Asians. So the most liberal estimates for Mao there are 7 million, but the range is pretty big. The most conservative estimates put him at 2 million.
Let's look at the US' kill count. I know of bombing campaigns in Korea, Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia. Respectively, the ranges here are 300k-2M, 1.5M-3.1M, 80k-350k, 50k-150k. So that's a range of 1.9M-5.6M. Then there's the suppression of the movement for independence in colonized phillipines, which adds 200k, and Afghanistan, 250k. So that puts us at 2.5M-6M for the US to 2-7 for Mao.
It should be noted that I'm not counting indirect deaths via training and arming dictatorships (if someone hands an assassin a gun, and the assassin kills your mother, the first person is not a murderer, but they are culpable in some way. If we add these, you get Timor, and the murder of leftists in Indonesia in the 60s, among others, which adds another 1-1.5M to the US count.
So I guess it's kind of close. I gotta say, I'm a little surprised, I always thought Mao was much worse, but the US is a strong contender.
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It's only a gift if you get it for free. Israel funded Hamas to make themselves look more sympathetic.
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Can we just rename this instance from politicalmemes to tankierants
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"both sides"= a disengenious comment by conservative mainly also uses the same thing to say thier not as bad.
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"Both sides" also used by liberals to tell you it doesn't matter they voted for genocide because trump will do the same
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both sides is primarly used by conservatives, 100% of the time, lol. its pretty obvious even on reddit. thier talking points often are right wing in nature and pretty disengeniously disguised. i have never seen a "liberal" if there is anything left of center right in america, say that at all.
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Funny words coming from the fake "progressive" that claimed boths sides and sat at home or threw away a vote.
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Man fascists are delusional , scratch a liberal and all that...
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People have a hard time with percentages, propensity, likelihood, etc. They can only think in binary terms. I used to think it was the right but looks like it's everyone.
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It's crazy the amount of people that think the evil voters are at fault and not the political party that made a wedge issue out of fucking genocide of all things.
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So glad the current guys got in! How's that going for ya btw? That genocide stop? No? It's accelerating? So glad more children can die so you can still confidently hold your nose in the air.
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I hate the current guy even more. It seriously bothers me that the dems lost to him because they thought genocide was more important then you and me. I really wish they would have ran a proper platform, so we didnt have to vote for democracy and genocide at the same time, and still lose.
Keep blaming everyone but them and maybe we can have the same circus next election too. We all just have to come together and accept genocide, apathy and status quo like maybe three or four more times.
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Repeat after me: Israel is committing a genocide.
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Wait, you mean the thing that we told the Dems would happen, happened? Crazy, who could have seen that coming? It's almost like we wanted them to be a party of decency, so we could tell people to vote for them without having to defend the killing of children.
Maybe next time, the Dems should put up a candidate people want to vote for, instead of shaming people for being against Genocide.
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There's those who commit unintended mistakes, then there's those who give in to the temptation of behaving badly in their moments of weakness, and then there's those who can't wait for any given opportunity to behave maliciously and justify it by saying they aren't the only ones doing it.
Hey, don't judge me for commiting ethnic cleansing! Hitler did it as well, after all! And that one single bad apple in your group is mildly racist as well, so you're no better!
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Number of their own people disappeared for speech. If people aren't allowed to even speak about changing things, then there's no hope of improvement.
And yes, Lemmy is banned in China.
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lemmy.world does not appear to be blocked in China [1][2]. It seems to just be lemmy.ml and hexbear.net (e.g. not .world, lemmygradm sh.itjust.works, etc.)
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This isn't entirely new or unique to America, but the dynamic is essentially:
Party A improves the odds fascism is successfully implemented.
Party B implements it.
Reducing the conditions for fascism to take hold is strictly off the table for both A and B.
Fundamentally changing the system of Party A (or B for that matter) through voting alone would at least require a Party C.
But even so it is the internal party politics prior to and outside of elections that are keeping this fascism paradigm in place. And that's where people's frustrations tend to lie.
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It becomes a trolley problem at some point too.
Do you do nothing and watch fascism implemented or physically support and fund the genocide just so fascism is implemented 2 years later without anyone opposing this time?
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I don't know that I've ever seen anyone say that both sides are the same. I have seen people (when talking about the US) call out when both sides do the same things, such as: Put forth rapists and child-killers as candidates, back a genocide, send people to torture prisons, refuse to fix the healthcare system, etc.
B is indeed worse than A, but I've seen too many people use that to pretend that one side is "actually good", instead of being able to see that both sides are bad.
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Then you haven't been here long enough.
According to tankies, both sides are liberal.
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According to tankies, both sides are liberal.
That's according to political science in general, including Wikipedia^[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_liberalism]. The US is a liberal democracy.
Political scientists evaluate all politicians in the United States as liberals in the academic sense.[28] In general, rather than the Democratic Party, which is close to social liberalism, the Republican Party is evaluated as a conservative-liberal party.
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Well said, both sides are bad, but one is so much worse than the other
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you might wanna visit hexbear/lemmygrad
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One side has good PR so eveyone here bootlicks them
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I don’t know that I’ve ever seen anyone say that both sides are the same.
Well this is a blatant lie.
instead of being able to see that both sides are bad.
My god the irony.
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Does third party count then? One bar is a bar
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tankie looking at Kamala Harris and Donald Trump standing next to each other 'im seeing double! four liberals!'
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Another classic:
Me: gives my definition of tankie Tankie: so
<name of leftist who doesnt match the given definition>
is a tankie too?And ofc: Shunning a dictatorship and pointing out their horrible doing, means you obviousely cant be left, nooo you must be a libertarian or fascist.
And one of my favorit tankie talking points: "Democracy is when you have to be approved by the government in order to even get on a list. That you can either vote for the state party or "no", like it was in east germany, and 99.4% voted for the state party but then suddenly after the dictatorship fell, 4 years later they dropped down to 16.4 %. aah yes seems legit. Truely a grand democracy.
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Can we just stop having this discussion? It's so boring. Both sides misrepresent the other. Tankies are stupid. Also nobody is a tankie. The Biden administration sanctioned a genocide. Every other US president is a war criminal. This discussion never goes anywhere.
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So you propose ignoring the propaganda and hope it'll go away? Doesn't sound like a very good plan.
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Difficult to vote between genocide and genocide. At least with one you punished the other candidate for it.
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Using the term "tankie" while defending a party carrying out a modern day holocaust is quite something.
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Defending and arguing that the two parties aren't the same isn't the same thing. Just check out last week's news involving trump. Just last week. And then multiply that by 50. Nobody said the democrats are good. Just that the republicans are 10 times worse, that's all.
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When Democrats win next election they will spend the whole election carrying on Trump's policies and therefore normalizing them. Republicans go farther right, people like you say that's proof they're worse and we should back the Democrats, Democrats win and do all the same policies and therefore normalize it, which then allows Republicans to go farther right.
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while defending a party carrying out a modern day holocaust
Oof. You should really think twice before posting a comment this dumb. There's a delete option. Do yourself a favor and use it.
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holocaust deniers should not bother replying because they will just get the instant block
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Nah, delete this
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Leftists: Maybe we shouldn't fund genocide and perhaps the average worker should be able to afford to put food on their table
Liberals: HOW DARE YOU PROMOTE YOUR RADICAL TANKIE AGENDA, DONT YOU KNOW THE GDP AND STOCK MARKET ARE GOING UP WHICH MEANS THE ECONOMY IS GOOD SO STOP COMPLAINING. IN FACT THE POLITICANS DONT EVEN NEED TO GIVE YOU ANYTHING BECAUSE THEY DESERVE YOUR VOTE, NEVER BLAME THE SYSTEM, NEVER ASK FOR CHANGE AND NEVER THINK ABOUT WHO PULLS THE STRINGS
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What is Marxist-Leninism?
Or, the things I misunderstood when listening to Chapo.
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If you are confronted with two evils, thus the argument runs, it is your duty to opt for the lesser one, whereas it is irresponsible to refuse to choose altogether. … The weakness of the argument has always been that those who choose the lesser evil forget very quickly that they chose evil.
- Hannah Arendt, "Personal Responsibility Under Dictatorship," in Responsibility and Judgment (2003)
It's very interesting that those who screamed that we had to choose the lesser of two evils in 2020, thereby admitting to the evil of the Democrats, immediately shut up about this evil as soon as Biden took office. Now that the greater evil has taken power, you never talk about actually fighting it, you just spend your time bashing people with a conscience.
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immediately shut up about this evil as soon as Biden took office
Citation needed.
Every single person I know who reluctantly voted for Biden spent the next 4 years complaining constantly. Online forums were full of liberals calling Biden "basically a Republican". Plenty of news stories covered how more progressive Democrats felt Biden wasn't doing enough.
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That's the opposite of what I saw. I'm not saying that you are wrong, just that I saw differently. I saw Democrats spend most of their time saying that it's not OK to attack the current Democratic president. I wonder how much of that difference is based on the circles we run in, or the news sites that we visit.
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Don't know what the fuck you're on about but that's hogwash. No self aware individual on the left doesn't hate their own party's faults, at least in the US. The same simply can't be said for the other side.
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on the left
The Democratic party is not a leftist party. It's a center-right liberal party. The point of my post was that "self aware" Democrat voters pay lip service to acknowledge the evil of the Democratic party, but then do absolutely nothing to challenge it when the Democrats are in power.
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The US doesn’t have a left
They have a far right and a less far right
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Now that the greater evil has taken power, you never talk about actually fighting it
We did fight it, and won, in 2020. In 2024 a few people stopped fighting, so we lost. And now the people who were complaining about Biden being evil are being deported for speaking their mind.
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This reply is a perfect example of the disconnect between liberals and leftists. The democrats did not meaningfully fight fascism in 2020-2024! As I've said elsewhere, fighting fascism effectively would have entailed hanging Trump after J6. Instead they allowed Trump to get away with a coup attempt. This allowed the fascists to iteratively test coup strategies, and they might have found the correct one this time around.
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The ones not being deported are attempting to on top their high horse and act like them not voting was somehow better than the alternative.
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Says the person who never has done evil ever. /s
My friend, I don't know how you are still alive. The only action these days that doesn't involve some kind of negative consequence is breathing air.
For the rest of us who actually do stuff, so you can whine at us from your computer, we make compromises all the time. That is life.
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two words: third parties
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Tell me you don't understand American politics without telling me you don't understand American politics
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Let's say that if in every Presidential and Congressional election from 2028 to 2058, everyone who'd otherwise vote for 3rd parties instead voted Democrat, and Democrats always won the White House, >45% of the House and Senate each, always had a majority in at least 1 house, and at least 1/2 the time won majorities in both houses.
Do you think the US would be any closer to voter reform—e.g. proportional representation, ranked ballots, whatever, even re-drawing districts more sensibly?
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wp:2024 United States presidential election#Results by state
If 1.5 million Californians who voted for Harris, instead voted for Trump, Harris would have still won that state;
or,
If 3 million Californians who voted for Harris, instead voted for 3rd parties (e.g. Stein), Harris would have still won that state.
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4 835 250 Texans voted for Harris. That's more votes for Harris than any other state besides California. It was still over 1.5 million votes less than what Trump got in Texas.
If those who voted for Harris in Texas instead voted 3rd party, Harris would be no worse the loser in terms of Texan Electoral votes.
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But yeah, I have no understanding of American politics.
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(minor correction about 20 minutes after posting: for 3rd party into for 3rd parties)
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two words: third parties
Two words: NOT VIABLE
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Unless you completely, or mostly, agree with Trump or Harris—and I repeat, agree, not just consider one the lesser evil—then no one is viable.
A vote for Harris in a non-swing state was a vote wasted.
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You're right, Lena.
The voters should just sit in the corner and be joyful about the fact that food staples are becoming cost-prohibitive, and then laugh along with you when you all joke about it and pretend it doesn't matter.
No one cares about the differences between the two parties if your party doesn't care that they can't feed their families.
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Would you rather have Trump's fascist regime and be an activist, or have Biden's much less worse administration and be an activist? Voting doesn't decrease your ability to participate in protests and so on.
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Voting doesn't decrease your ability to participate in protests and so on.
False. You're significantly more likely to end up being human-traficked to an El Salvador prison under Trump.
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You're not getting it.
When you're working 100 hours a week at three jobs and all your labor buys for you is a roach-infested studio apartment, it doesn't matter how nice the president speaks. The working class and poor have been living under fascism for years.
The message here isn't: "Vote for us because Trump's a fascist."
The message is: "Trump promised you this, but he's doing this instead and it's hurting your family. Vote for us and we'll put a stop to it." (Not that anyone thinks Democrats actually will, judging by their near-total lack of action so far.)
And for Christ's sake stop joking about how expensive food has become, because that's a very real problem and when people see Democrats joking about it, they think you don't care that they're starving.
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Another lemmy.world banger
334 comments