Trudeau announces 25 per cent retaliatory tariffs on U.S. goods starting Tuesday
Trudeau announces 25 per cent retaliatory tariffs on U.S. goods starting Tuesday
American here.
Don't counter with tarrifs. Counter with embargoes. Trump loaded you a gun and handed it to you. Pull the fucking trigger already.
Counter by decriminalizing everything to do with violations of US intellectual property. Ignore all US patents. Let Canadian drug companies make pharmaceuticals without having to pay for a US license. Let repair shops disable the DRM systems that prevent HP printers from accepting any old generic ink. Let Canadian broadcasters show US movies and TV shows without kicking back money to Hollywood. Let Canadian farmers repair their tractors without first kicking back money to John Deere. Allow anybody who wants to to jailbreak iPhones, and sell kits that allow other people to do that. Free Canadians from having to kick 30% of every purchase back to Apple in California.
That was Cory Doctorow's recent take on it too. Trump just threw out the trade agreement with Canada and Mexico he was so proud to say was his accomplishment, after renegotiating NAFTA. They really should say fine, stew in your own mess. Ignore patents, crank out cheap pharmaceuticals, forget about DRM. Nationalize US factories on their soil. Will hurt for a while until new trade is established, but there is the whole rest of the planet to trade with.
Nationalize US factories on their soil
This is extreme and could warrant an invasion from the US. Wars have been fought for less. Look at what happened to Guatemala when they wanted to take back some of the half off their farmland owned by Chiquita.
Canada is a mid-sized power but not really in a position to flaunt US power like that
Canada is part of Nato. Isn't trump going to leave Nato? So that would mean all of Nato would be on Canada's side. That is one hell of a leg to stand on.
Nato doesn't have the navy to help Canada in a fight. Assuming America isn't torn apart by a civil war as factions of the military defects and there's a revolution in the streets. (60/40 at that point. Fighting a century old ally is a red line that would absolutley cause a civil war)
the US navy would chuckle as the french and british and other relevant navies lie at the bottom of the atlantic. And at that point, Russia moves in and Europe is in a land war while the US decides to partner with Russia.
Britain and France also have thermonuclear weapons. Britain has Vanguard-class ballistic missile submarines and France has Triomphant class ballistic missile submarines, and both have nuclear capable fighters and bombers. If Europe is to fall - let the whole world fall with it.
I dunno, Invasion requires a ground war. If the US attacked thier ships, they can just essentially blockade the US at ports of entry. The US can't invade all points of entry and ensure safe passage. One shoulder mounted missle can take care of that. The US just can't win that exchange. It takes 100x the force to secure than to disrupt. And in general the Uzs doesn't have the troops to protect all it's assets overseas. Nato would cripple us in a week.
this conversation was specifically about the US turning aggressive against Canada. the US turning on its allies and getting its global presence destroyed is one thing (I dont think that would happen, either). But to be clear, in this scenario we are talking about, If the US went aggressive against Canada, there is absolutely nothing NATO can do to help Canada except fingerwag, or nuke America.
And if Nuclear weapons were threatened, you could bet your ass the Mouth Foaming Z-Nazi party in Russia would rush to the aid of America, and declare that they were ready to invade and launch on the "Insane Europeans" to help the "Americans we have no problem with"
Russia wants to be hegemon of Eurasia, or at the very least Europe. If America wants to sacrifice it's world influence and power to set up some kafkaesque one state entity across north America, Russia is more than happy to let them have it as long as they get their peice of the pie.
And I pointed out what Nato could do. If all the US troops are spread trying to protect US assets elsewhere, there is none left to do the actual invading. And of course that would also open up ways for nato to move things by boat to Canada. Russian would probably use the opportunity to take Alaska actually. China would take Taiwan. The west coast would probably take that opportunity to become it's own country. The northeast as well. It would be the end of the united states.
it appeares in my last comment I didnt actually mention one of the elephants in the room.
Im gonna stop you right there at "move things by boat to Canada"
the US Navy owns the Atlantic Ocean. bought, paid for and signed. Nothing is getting across the ocean. Spare for possibly a British or French nuclear submarine that decided to unload on the eastern seaboard. and they're not gonna pick a fight with the US that they're already terribly outgunned in, whilst also trying to deal with the mouth foaming Vatniks who are more or less already at war with NATO
I don’t think the US could continue to own the atlantic Ocean in this situation. The ships would be needed all over the world to protect US assets. There just aren't enough to go around, and it is a big ocean.
I know, it's a nuclear option. Seriously shouldn't put that card down right off. And yeah, hasn't gone well for any central or south american government that the US has destabilized or overthrown due to some large corporation's interests. But as all this garbage escalates, bringing up the possibility could make owners and shareholders squirm a bit. It hurts them financially, the only thing that would make them care. People who Trump might (might, small chance) listen to. But before that point? Those companies can produce all kinds of things. Doesn't mean Canada or Mexico have to let those goods go out across their borders. Their trade agreement has been torn up by Trump again. And you know that bureaucracy is complicated, things get held up in customs sometimes, occasionally for very very long times. Paperwork gets lost... When companies here in the US are screaming about their supply lines breaking down again, now because of HIS stupid tariff war, there will be some negative political fallout. Trump's ego and image are vulnerable things despite all the bluster. He won't back down, but he could pivot to something else and let this nonsense drop.
As an American, I will join the war on Canada's side if my country decides to invade.
Canada should make nuclear weapons. Such is life in the shitter multiverse. I'd want my commune to have nukes to. Humans are psychotic hairless monkeys and are untrustworthy.
This is an insane hypothetical but the worst thing is I can totally see Trump declaring a "military intervention into the Canadian comunist takeover of US interests and property" or something like that
the rest of the world is too chicken shit. there is no rest of the world to trade with as the us cries to everyone that they need to embargo nation X.
Counter by giving Luigi Mangione diplomatic immunity.
Sounds like heaven to me
I wish this comment (merc's comment) would get bumped to the top of every post related to the tariffs. Tit for tat tariffs is stupid with predictable results. Strategic tariffs and other targeted mean of retaliation are better. Why is there only a 10% tariff on oil? Because the US needs Canada's oil. You fuck with our economy we fuck with the resources we give you at a discounted rate. Look at CUSMA (hehe. or NAFTA or whatever broken trade agreement that was) and target the industries that the (US) wanted to protect.
And for people using the tired fight analogies - just because someone tries to punch you in the face doesn't mean you punch them back in the face. You have already been training to kick them in the fucking balls.
Tit for tat tariffs is just political posturing for weak leadership.
Also, this is a fight against a much bigger opponent. Not only is the US population 10x bigger and their economy more than 10x bigger, that size means they have a lot more trade partners, whereas Canada is pretty isolated and trades mostly with the US.
If you're up against a much stronger opponent in a life-or-death fight, you don't fight fair.
And that's how you end up with a US military invasion.
I'm pretty sure that the margins are slim enough in the house and senate that if Trump suggested military action against Canada, that his wings would be clipped.
STOP!! I can only get so errect!!
We're doing both. Both BC and Ontario are cutting off American Booze. That's gonna hurt American company's hard.
My hope if Trump keeps it up we cut off the power, and better yet the gas. Although that might make him try to invade or something.
Up next will be him calling Canadians Nazis and trying to annex Quebec.
My hope if Trump keeps it up we cut off the power, and better yet the gas. Although that might make him try to invade or something.
I think US history is clear. Mess with the US oil supply and you get the smoke.
I think US history is clear. Invade Canada and your capital gets the smoke.
Touché. I concede on this point. Let the Americans fear Canada burning down the capital again.
Let them remember why the Geneva Convention exists.
And it burned burned burned. I'll bet that made them mad!
I get what you're saying, but the US being Canada's biggest trading partner would absolutely destroy Canadian economy right together with the US economy
The Canadian economy will be ruined by any kind of half-measures.
Don't negotiate with a fascist state. Cut them off, recall ambassadors, and cease all joint military operations.
Trump will never do anything to benefit Canada, so why give him an ounce of cooperation?
Because we still need our own economy?
If Canada 100% stops trading with the US it will wreck havoc on the economy. Sure, it'll hurt the US too, and yes, it's a fascist state at this point, but you still gotta live, eat, etc...
Brother, your economy is getting gigafucked by Trump either way.
You can slow-roll it, with the impact lasting decades, or the world can sign up for one shitty month that will result in Trump being neutered by Congressional Republicans who are terrified of 2026.
the world has too many right wing govs currently to handle any fallout form such efforts. they no doubt don't see benefits; they just have no idea how to actually govern and are just in it for the cash.
Oh sure, I'd love to watch the entire world rallying together against trump.
I'm just saying that you still have a country with people that need food on the table. That "shitty month" you're talking about can and probably will mean the literal end for countless people and entire families.
This is not a game with only 10 factors, it's real life with thousands upon thousands of factors. It's not that easy.
Brother, your economy is getting gigafucked by Trump either way.
If someone shoots at you, you don't shoot yourself in the foot to spite them. Canada is reliant on US trade. Cutting it off entirely would cause a serious economic shockwave that's hard to understate.
The foot has already been shot, and trying to save it will end up costing the rest of the leg at best.
Amputate the fucker to save the leg.
Our only reliable allies. Europeans and the Pacific Partners like Australia, NZ, Japan and South Korea... are all oceans away. The US has by overwhelming force, the largest navy in the world. Only China, who we don't want to dive into the arms of and become a puppet of, even remotely stands a chance.
Our allies aren't going to rush to our aid in a worst case scenario, because they can't get across the atlantic. and they're also preoccupied with more or less being de-facto at war with the Russian Federation right now. and they are still not taking it seriously that they may have to fight for real over there.
When you start doing things like you're suggesting. That is absolutely going to be seen as a hostile act by the US, and they will manufacture consent for war.
The US spent 20 years in Afghanistan and fucking lost. We're good at sinking carriers and blowing up tanks, but absolutely horrible at occupying territory.
The kind of war the US is good at is the only kind that I want it to be good at. That is: disabling other war machines.
The US spent 20 years in Afghanistan and fucking lost.
20 years is actually a long time to occupy something. We outlasted the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan by 12 years. And Afghanistan was right next to the USSR. But for us it is on the other side of the world.
It was a long occupation because it was a failure. Sucessful occupations stop being occupations within a few years.
You know what's frustrating in all that? Is that our leaders won't do jack shit to diversify the economy.
Nothing has changed much during COVID and nothing will change now.
People will suffer and nothing will change.
Countries trade with the countries closest to them because the realities of logistics overpower politics or whatever ideals people might have. There are a few exceptions of course. Cuba doesn't do a lot of trade with the countries closest to them. But they aren't doing that well. The UK had an idea about diversifying their trade to be more about trade with non-european countries, but that didn't go well either.
Geography is a bitch. You can't physically move a country to another part of the globe, you have to deal with the countries near to you whether you like it or not.
Absolutely, and we'll have to deal with US until Pangaea, but what I'm frustrated about is that COVID and the first Trump presidency should have been a wake up call and try to find solutions to make Canada more resilient to the US market.
But it has been status quo and our quality of life has been left to degrade with nothing to show for it.
So our politicians will slap counter tariffs, change jack shit and pat themselves on the back.
We are a big fucking country with a lot of resources but it seems like each province would rather trade with the US than with other provinces.