You're viewing a single thread.
Wife and I have a longstanding argument over whether free-will exists.
I say it does and she has no choice but to say otherwise.
and she has no choice
I am forced to see what you did there :D
Consider this, free will can still be pre-planned. We can choose what we want to do, so what if it was pre planned? I still chose it.
I like to change definitions to secure my position also
what definition did I change?
The meaning of free will.
The meaning of free will is exactly what people are discussing when they talk about whether or not it exists. What does and what doesn't count as free will is what's up for discussion.
I think free will as a concept is kinda stupid I've yet to talk to anyone who can actually give it a solid definition that isn't something like "it means we can do what we want"
Either your decision is based on your personality, meaning it's not free it's a set calculation based on genetics and accumulated experience or it's completely random meaning it's not will at all
Free will as a philosophical concept has less to do with "I can do what I want" and more to do with "I have control over my actions/thoughts." This gets into all sorts of interesting corners, such as:
- if God exists and is all-knowing, can God know what you're about to do? If God does, is it really your choice, or just something God planned long ago?
- if God doesn't exist, then we're all products of everything that came before. Assuming that's the case, a sufficiently powerful computer with a sufficiently large amount of data could determine what you're about to do. If that's the case, is it really your choice, or are you just a really complex automaton where the inputs (your life experiences and current situation) exactly determine your actions?
- in either of the above cases, if you're unaware that another observer knows what you'll do, do you retain free will? Does free will disappear the moment you learn of this observer? Can knowing about the observer change your actions in an unpredictable way, or can actions always be predicted?
And so on. There are some interesting discussions there at the edges, like at what point AI gains free will. That can have very real moral implications (i.e. when does AI get personhood?), so it's not just idle chat.
Oh for sure it's a good thing to talk about, that's just my viewpoint on it
Can your free will be restricted in any way? Someone in prison has less agency than you or I, if that means his free will is restricted then we have more free will than he does. Therefore it exists.
I would say his free will is not restricted
His decision making options are restricted but those decisions are just as much a product of his past as the ones we make out of prison, he's still acting entirely based on external and internal forces
I'll put it this way, if you were to make an exact copy of our universe at this moment and watch both of them play out, he'd almost certainly make the exact same decision both times, same applies to someone out of prison
My point isn't that people don't practically have agency in the decisions they make, because they obviously do. We just don't know all the forces that influence that decision and it's not useful to think about that, so we call it free will
His decision making options are restricted
What is free will if not decision making? I understand people who say free will doesn't exist as saying we don't actually make decisions, it's all decided for us by some other factor.
The ability to predict things does not negate free will. If I put a ball on a hill it will roll down because it has no free will, and I am able to predict that. If I offer you $20 or a punch in the face I am able to predict that you will choose the $20, but that doesn't mean free will doesn't exist because you could choose the punch in the face.
I am 100% sure any ball will roll down the hill 100% of the time. I am only 99.99% sure that any person will choose the $20 100% of the time, because humans have more free will than a ball.
This is certainly one interpretation and the one I generally use but it's still an an abstraction based on sentiment
Chatgpt can make decisions based on past "knowledge" and external stimuli, but we don't consider it to have free will
You could say that's only because it can't do anything without human input but we can't do anything without input from our senses
^ This guy is a double murderer. Do not engage.
If you just start talking to some random person about it, then you're unlikely to get a high-quality conversation; because most of the stuff people will say about it is inane or obvious or obviously wrong, etc. But there are definitely interesting discussions and thoughts that can be had about it. I've had countless garbage conversations about, and a handful of good ones. Probably my favoutite take is from Daniel Dennett's book "Freedom Evolves". He is very careful to build up a strong picture of what is it that we're talking about and what the 'obvious' problems are, before then carefully and systematically showing those things aren't really problems with what we were talking about anyway. Before reading that book, I was hard line in the camp of "obviously free will doesn't exist; that's a scientific fact"; but after reading it... well, I'd now say "it depends exactly what you mean, but probably the free will you're talking about does exist.".
I think conversation with anyone about that kind of thing is good as long as they're willing to engaged. If they have thought about it you get a different viewpoint, if they haven't you give them something to think about
I don't really take a stance either way on the free will thing because I think it's a made up concept whose existence entirely depends on your own definition of the word
Unless you believe in some kind of immutable soul that's separate from the physical body and brain that is in charge of decisions somehow I suppose
Why do we need to bother executing it then? Choice has no value if agency to exercise it is revoked at any stage.
Not executing it would also be predetermined. The only thing you can do is pretend to choose.
that thought affects your brain, and therefore the future! :D
But you didn't choose to have the thought did you?
Quick think of a city and then explain to me why you didn't pick Cairo
speaking of brains, mine just exploded!
btw the text before the spoiler doesn't show up on jerboa
if we don't, then the predetermined outcome won't happen!
Free will exists because I can change my mind about liking or wanting something.
I want to rebuke you but you name is even more triggering. There is no linear chaos, you need non-linearities or discontinuities for chaos.
Glad I could be of use.
The concept behind linear chaos is that the chaos is bound at one point. The theoretical cone of influence can only move in one direction and widen at a set rate. Kind of a mashup of chaos over time.
Ah that's really cool. So maybe similar to how turbulence can form at one point while the preceding flow remains laminar?
Yeah, chaos crops up in linear systems sometimes in unexpected places.
There are a couple of scientific papers on it, and at least one textbook. Even at that I'm not sure it's a well-accepted theory, but the idea suits me.
How is it a choice if there is no other options?
/woosh
It's really not much of a whoosh when some people hold that position legitimately
When I get my ballot with an uncontested seat, I can still choose whether to check the box. Even though it doesn't impact the outcome at all, I still have the choice on whether to check the box. Even if I am completely restrained and my movements are forced, I still have the choice of whether to accept or resist that action, even if it's just a mental protest.
So I don't think there's ever a case where there are no other options, but there are plenty of situations where there are no other good options (e.g. cake or death), but that doesn't restrict your free will, it just restricts your options.
One time I was talking about this with my friends. I said I believe it exists and they all laughed and said "particles have rules, you're made of particles." 🥺