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LollerCorleone @kbin.social

2y ago

We should defederate from lemmynsfw

The mods there have decided to allow underage looking content, skirting close to CP. Unless we want such disgusting stuff on our feed, I think we should defederate from that instance.

Pinging @ernest as well.

285 comments

This seemed odd to me, so I went to investigate. A clarification was posted 2 hours ago. Stating very clearly that:
loli/shota are BANNED and not okay in any way.
IRL kids are BANNED OBVIOUSLY because no shit.
characters who are petite/young-looking but not obviously underage are ALLOWED because as an instance the votes decided that banning all of it was destructive, and differentiating between them can be impossible.
So, it seems like an anti-witch hunting measure, which has ironically caused a massive witch hunt for the instance as a whole. These guys don't seem to in any way support pedophilia (thank God).
- What an odd way to initially phrase it. Saying "underage-looking nsfw" is such an underhanded wording that it makes me feel like they were trying to stir up a shitstorm against their own userbase. The followup is way better "we're allowing weebs, no loli, some of you might still think it looks underage but we're leaving it at the mods' discretion". But the damage is already done.
- Petite / young-looking but not obviously underage
  That still might actually be illegal in some jurisdictions. The wording of the British law on it bans "pseudo photographs" of people who are underage, and the definition used would probably cover that.
  
  I think Canada has a law against it?
- I wonder if their community vote will hold up in a court of law? I can't help but think that yay@lemmynsfw is out of their depth here....
- He also called them "pleasures" in the initial post. That's a really weird way to phrase it 🤔

As long as kbin domain blocking tools work, I can choose to block their content - and I will, because 1) it's pretty fucking vile 2) it might be illegal. But I don't need it to be defederated, I'm happier if I have the tools to deal with this (and other similar stuff).
I wish we could remove the The "Random Post" / "Random Thread" boxes from the front page. Those seem to display NSFW material quite often - I don't really have any need for "random content" especially since I can't control the source.
- But I don't need it to be defederated, I'm happier if I have the tools to deal with this (and other similar stuff).
  I'm sorry but this is asinine. We're not talking about blocking too many posts about Taylor Swift, we're talking about new users of kbin getting fed illegal child porn in their feed.
  Kbin should defederate immediately.
  
  This is not about CSAM though. It’s about specific fetish (which isn’t illegal globally as far as I know)
  ernest needs to worry about the legality of the server and his users holistically.
  I need to worry about the content I’m browsing. Ernest can’t worry or know about local laws in every country. Hence, I need to be able to block domains that I deem unsuitable.
  If ernest decides he needs to defederate to keep his users safe, then that’s fine by me, it’s his call. But I want to be able to moderate my own content (tools exist, but seem a bit buggy https://codeberg.org/Kbin/kbin-core/issues/118)
  
  Hear, hear.
- If it "might be illegal" than there actually might be a legal responsibility to defederate. Federation is not links to content, it's mirrors of content, and anything you're seeing while browsing kbin.social is being hosted here.
  
  If it "might be illegal" than there actually might be a legal responsibility to defederate.
  Absolutely, I never said otherwise (I hope?)
  But that's up to server admins - I don't even know where the servers are hosted right now. I have no idea what applies to them. I'd like to believe they are acting in good faith and following their local legislation.
  What I meant with "might be illegal" is laws are different. Iceland and Iran have very different views on illegal content. And it might be that the content that is illegal in Iran, isn't actually illegal in where ever the servers are hosted.
  We all have to make sure we follow the laws of the country we live in.
  So we need tools to handle those situations (like the situation in this thread)
- it might be illegal.
  Sounds like an existential risk to the server to federate with them unless they tighten things up then. @ernest is beholden to both the laws of where his server is hosted and where he lives, which I believe are Germany and Poland. If he violates either, there goes the instance and/or him.
  
  Certainly. The instance must abide by the law of the country it’s hosted in. And we users must abide by the laws of our respective countries.
  I’ll let ernest and instance mods to worry about the legality of the instance, but I’d like to be able to to control the content that ends up in my browser - domain blocking is a hammer, going forward it would also be nice to get keyword blocking and other tools.
  
  if the instance is beholden to german laws it might be better to move to a new one before this gets too large. otherwise it'll suffer the same fate as traditional social media. no idea what the laws in poland are...
- For some reason, people from reddit would rather ban EVERYONE from accessing content, rather than just hitting the very-easy-to-use block button, that will take care of all of their woes while not forcing their opinion on everyone else.
  Loli is fucking gross, and the people who enjoy it are gross, but the block button is right there.
- I think we should keep the decision on the users what they want to see or don't want to, as long as its legal - similar to the piracy magazines or others.
  Maybe block it by default, but allow users to opt-in / remove the block?
  By the way:
  You can see all threads from an instance by using the following URL on Kbin (not on Lemmy):
  https://kbin.social/d/[instance-url]
  ^ the /d stands for domain.
  e.g.: https://kbin.social/d/lemmy.ml
  On the same page, you can block the whole instance.
- As long as kbin domain blocking tools work,
  Instance blocking.
  
  https://kbin.social/settings/blocked/domains
  Domains
- You can create a rule for that area in your ad blocker, I got rid of it completely.

HARD DISAGREE
Another community having the possibility of posting something you don’t approve of when nothing is actually illegal, nobody is actually getting hurt, and you could just have blocked that community (or even just offending users) for yourself in the first place is just a really dumb reason to force the whole instance to defederate from it.
It’s up to Ernest what happens, but I’m not on board for unnecessary censorship of cartoons, of all things. I honestly worry for you.
- It is actually illegal in some jurisdictions, including mine.
- It probably is illegal in some jurisdictions, that's the issue.
- but I’m not on board for unnecessary censorship of cartoons
  Said by every loli loving paedo.
- I agree

As much as I enjoy the idea of an adult community, it has to be adult in both idea and implementation. Allowing depictions of underage people (especially in the age of AI) is plain stupid. I’m blocking lemmynsfw and suggest you all do the same.

go to https://kbin.social/d/lemmynsfw.com and hit the block button if you don't want posts from there in your feed
- The kbin enhancement script is also a great little tool to completely hide anything originating from NSFW domains that's listed in the script.

@LollerCorleone thanks for that.
- This is highly misleading and makes more sense when reading the original question thread.
  https://kbin.social/m/lemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com/t/42695/READ-THIS-clarification-on-the-decision-and-poll-results
  This affects fictional content where it is hard to determine the age of the character. No obvious underage stuff.
  
  I think it's necessary to monitor the situation and how they will handle moderation, but for now, I would prefer to do it from a distance from kbin. There is currently a significant issue with moderation, and disturbing content can remain up for too long. I'm working on improving this issue as well.
  
  Anyone against defederating is seriously messed up. You included.
  
  I just add the exact quote.
  characters who are petite/young-looking but not obviously underage are ALLOWED
  Supports your point.
  
  Which is still potentially illegal in some countries.
- I believe one solution to this, is to add another option beside federation or defederation.
  Since, if my understanding is correct, federated instances don't actually share content until someone subscribes to the community in the bad instance. The bad content is then shown to every other user in the first instance, needing every other user to block the bad content if they don't like it or forcing defederation.
  But on the other hand, that means that someone does actually want to view the content since someone did subscribed to it. So my proposed solution is to limit the content of the bad instance to be shown only to the subscribed users and nobody else. Maybe either by the user when subscribing, to select a limited subscription shown only to themselves, or by the moderator.
  
  Even of its only being shown to the subscriber, it's still being hosted by the local instance. This puts the local site at legal risk.
  
  To apply that more broadly, wouldn't that mean more like, ALL nsfw would only appear in its own mag/only on the feeds of people subbed to it? That may be an interesting solution. People set out deliberately to look for it and even keep pron-specific alts, so it's not like every other subject, that would suffer massively if kept sequestered. Then all one would have to tackle is persuading people to tag all of it.

and now the federation drama begins...
- There is nothing dramatic about it. Defederating from problematic instances is nothing new for federated platforms.
  
  Access to content should not be difficulted by puritan views. If people enjoy gore and create an instance about gore in movies showing very explicit (yet fictional) images of dismemberments and stuff in movies it should be banned too because is morally questionable?
  If you can't distinguish between fiction and reality it should be a you problem not the whole instance you are inhabiting problem
  What do you think about this? (sorry the article is in Spanish, but there is no English article)
  https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C3%B1osenlaplaya
  It's a painting exposed in an important museum
  
  this isn't problematic. there's literally nothing illegal about lemmynsfw. since there is nothing illegal on there, it's not problematic. that simple.
  
  So, in a month we can expect a mass repression in kbin?
  
  Really, it's just good housekeeping.
- Calling it drama is like saying "both sides", it's dumb AF.

There is a good case here to defederate every instance by default and only federate based on a white list.
There are criminals in the fediverse obviously and we should split from them immediately. Don't forget that their content is copied to the servers of Ernest automatically.
Again, Beehaw defederated 380 instances and it's not just because they disagree with their political stance, but mostly because of this kind of horrible content. Which will come from another new instance, and another, etc, etc. Which means that we need to update Ernest regularly to protect his servers. Or make the default setting as defederated.

Reading the comments.... that's not going to fly - literally no response in the comments is PRO this change.
- But the instance owner has been acting pretty defensive about it, and seem to be going ahead with it.
  
  Oh well if it goes ahead, especially against the very vocal suggestions that it should not from his own users. Then yes - I agree.

Let's flip that argument: should we all abide by American standards?
No. Kbin is Polish, I think
- Yes, the developer of /kbin is Polish.
  Lolicon is illegal in Poland.
  
  if this is indeed the case, then this is really the only valid reason to defederate. if it's literally illegal to federate, then it's understandable what must be done. otherwise? no.
- Ernest is Polish, and the server is in Germany. Which, for what it's worth, is another reason why any Nazi shit also needs to to be blocked at the server level, too.
  
  is another reason why any Nazi shit also needs to to be blocked at the server level, too.
  It's ok to block Nazi shit. Nazi ideology hurts real life people after all

Question from a new user, to block it do i actually have to click into it or is there another way? I've read all the comments and don't need clarification on anything else (except maybe if Ernest decided to defederate already); I definitely want to block it.
Thanks in advance!
- Go to https://kbin.social/d/lemmynsfw.com and block it there
  
  Thanks! Wasn't sure if there was another way. Appreciate you!

I have taken the executive decision to turn federation off for a similar reason.
I was recommended a vile post on the sidebar from m/random which I definitely never want to see the likes of again. I did report it but since it was from another server I don't really know where that goes.
I'm not going to turn federation back on again until I find a way to prevent it. Perhaps we should start a blacklist?
- You can blacklist sites you don't want to see.
  Go to https://kbin.social/d/<the instance domain name you want to block>
  For example: https://kbin.social/d/sh.itjust.works
  On the right side-bar, in the Domain box, you'll see this you'll see this
  Click on the block symbol and you will not see content from that domain again.
  (hopefully)
  
  Thank you and I appreciate the write up but I had actually already blacklisted a few domains.
  Unfortunately that did not prevent the post from appearing in m/random because it was from a domain that I had not already blacklisted.
  I simply do not want to have to act reactively once I have already been exposed to the vile content. At that point my experience is already ruined whether I block it afterwards or not.
  Another reasonable approach might be to block m/random which I might consider doing if I am tempted to enable federation again, but for now I'm just going to play it safe and stick to kbin.social.
  
  Ah that's good to know, thanks very much for the info.

Close to? There are jurisdictions where that is straight-up illegal. In those jurisdictions, anyone who so much as loads a page containing such a post is guilty of a sex offense, because the uncensored image is in their browser cache and therefore in their possession.
So yes, if they're allowing that content, then they need to be defederated with extreme prejudice.

From the looks of it, kbin's gonna need some stronger moderation to get rid of the fucking paedophiles.

- Are you someone who believes rape is okay because of how a woman is dressed? Because "she was asking for it dressed like that"?
  Because that's what you sound like.
  Edit: the person I was responding to has edited out the "you wanted this" from their comment which is what I was responding to. They were effectively suggesting that people wanting old Reddit wanted child porn. Fucking disgusting.

I just subbed to the hentai sub over there, damn. How unfortunate :/

Wtf. Did we for real defederate from lemmynsfw? They're no longer showing up in my feed...

285 comments