1y ago

Alabama IVF ruling divides devout Christians: 'Fewer children will be born'

www.bbc.com

When Alabama's Supreme Court defined frozen embryos as children, the shock and confusion was immediate. Major hospitals pulled fertility services and would-be parents scrambled for clarity on what would happen next.

The debate over reproductive rights in America has long been driven, in part, by opposition to abortion from Christian groups - but this ruling has divided that movement and ignited debate about the role of theology in US lawmaking.

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Oofnik @kbin.social

1y ago

Alabama IVF ruling divides devout Christians: 'Fewer children will be born'

www.bbc.com /news/world-us-canada-68396485

81 comments

So Alabama's supreme court can rule on mere belief?
- “Even before birth, all human beings have the image of God, and their lives cannot be destroyed without effacing his glory,” Chief Justice Tom Parker wrote.
  That's how it looks to me.
  
  Seems like the whole thing is in direct contradiction with the establishment clause.
  
  I boggles the mind, this image of god nonsense. If we are made in gods image then gods image also includes Meth addicts and sexual offenders? God must be one crazy bugger.
  
  I would love to know what this so called justice official's stance is on the Death Penalty; for or against.
  I will look it up later as I am being lazy at the moment.
  
  Christians: "Even before birth, all human beings have the image of God, and their lives cannot be destroyed without effacing his glory[.]"
  Trans people: [Exist]
  Christians: No, not like that...
  
  Which century is this from
- lol you act like judges are impartial
Oppressive theist group argues amongst itself about wha their imaginary friend in the sky wants.
- They don’t care what it wants. They care how they can frame what they want to seem like what it wants. What they want is pretty clearly spelled out here: more babies.
- Oppressive theist group argues amongst itself about wha their imaginary friend in the sky wants.
  Maybe they could exclusively focus on that for a while and get back to us if they ever come to an agreement on whose religion is the only correct one?
  Meanwhile the rest of us could get on with the business of progressing society without their constant interference.
  
  Maybe they could exclusively focus on that for a while and get back to us if they ever come to an agreement on whose religion is the only correct one?
  The true religion is yoga classes you take at the YMCA. There. I solved religion.
As horrendous as this ruling is, I'm also pissed at the pro-forced birthers that are upset by this ruling. It's so intellectually dishonest to object to this ruling when it uses the same justifications they use to oppose abortion.
These people pick issues to be passionate on but never actually put in the effort to research. And not just whether their position makes any sense, but what the downstream effects of the position would mean.
The politicians who write these anti-abortion laws are even more lazy. This is literally their job and they should have seen this coming. They could have put in exceptions for IVF from the get-go but they didn't, because they are more interested in winning points than writing effective legislation.
- They could have put in exceptions for IVF from the get-go but they didn't, because they are more interested in winning points than writing effective legislation.
  You can't square that circle. If you codify your religious myth that "life begins at conception" into law in order to ban abortions, then you also have to outlaw IVF by the very nature of the procedure.
  
  Or ensure all embryos are born. Either way that's dumb
Unfortunately any theology shouldn’t impact lawmaking.
- That statement is rather ambiguous as it could be read to mean it's unfortunate that theology can't impact lawmaking, or that it's unfortunate that theology is impacting lawmaking. Theology shouldn't impact lawmaking and the fact that it is is the problem. Republicans have been steadily chipping away at separation of church and state for decades now and we're seeing the impact.
  Any hint that a lawmaker is letting religious beliefs dictate their legislation should be an automatic disqualification from office. Politicians shouldn't even be allowed to mention their religion while campaigning. Instead it's becoming de rigueur for politicians to affirm their faith on a regular basis, and we regularly have politicians citing religious beliefs in debates about legislation.
- The only part of your comment that I disagree with is "unfortunately".
  
  Fair, my comment was related to the post stating what role theology should play in legislation.
- If you're "Christian" the odds are great that you do not believe and are in fact against the teachings of Jesus Christ.
  
  Book of Revelations
As someone who has two living IVF babies, 8 frozen embryos remaining, and is also Christian, this line struck a particularly strong chord:
"Nobody understands more that an embryo is not a child, than the person yearning for that embryo to be a child."
- Knowing multiple people who have gone through IVF procedures, and have had it fail time and time again, i felt that as well. They were heartbroken, time and time again.
  One lf them has a child on the way, and the other has stopped trying, for those who wonder :)
Who could've foreseen that restricting reproductive rights could go both ways?
- I honestly didn't. Assuming devout being synonymous with maga, this headline caught me off guard.
Can I just ask why more babies being born is seen as a moral good? I'm dumbfounded because I've honestly never in fifty years heard this talking point before.
- It's really this simple. The bible says "Be fruitful and multiply"
  
  When the line "be fruitful and multiply" was first written there were fewer humans on the planet than now live in Houston.
- A bunch of white people in the united states are worried about birth rates because immigrant birth rates are high whereas white birth rates are on the decline. They're worried about white people becoming a minority because even though if you asked them they would say no, they know that minorities are treated poorly here.
  
  Yep. It's called "replacement theory" and it's a core belief among racist organizations like Nazis, the Aryan nation and the KKK. It's also talked about constantly on Fox News and other right wing media.
  
  This is also behind the trans panic and concurrent anti-LGBTQ legislation in conservative states.
  Sure, they'll package it with scripture and moralizing, but in the end? It's all about fear.
  
  I wish everyone would just fuck everyone once and for all so we're all the same god damned race.
  
  Minorities are treated poorly pretty much everywhere
  
  I'm not white and used IVF. But definitely you are right on the money.
  
  I have heard that there are lot of White people in Europe.
  However, many of them are not too keen on moving to USA. For some mysterious reasons. 🤷‍♂️
- Because a man in a book said something about going forth and multiplying
- Skip to 0:30 for the relevant bit.
  https://youtu.be/piBsmYVqCAg?si=PI29MYtoF66MOX_q
  
  I've seen the interview. You can tell the guy is just completely lost in the conversation.
  But my question is this: I understand the assertion that embryos are somehow human, whatever, and I have a sort of begrudging respect for anyone who commits to that and opposes abortion because it is murder. Fine. Like politically and morally I'm completely opposed to that and I will fight them every step of the way, but at least I can understand and respect their commitment. I think it's valid to oppose abortion on those grounds, I suppose.
  But if the argument is that abortion is wrong because we need more babies to be born, that is a completely different argument. That one says abortion needs to be illegal not because it's killing babies, but because we have to force women to have babies against their will because babies are good.
  And don't come at me with, "they've always just been about control and forced birth" because I know that but I also know there are individual people who are just really committed to the idea of embryos as human life. And the right was sort of constrained by the need to keep that particular wool pulled over those particular eyes.
  Is this the moment the mask comes off? I'm just... gobsmacked, really. Killing Roe was the absolute worst thing the GOP could do and everyone knows it. They fucking know it. You would think they would try to settle on making some ground to move the arrow, but walk it back a little bit to cool some of the outrage. But no!
  I'm just... this is insane.
What they could go after next:
Same sex marriage
Gay sex
Porn
Contraception
Vasectomy
Divorce
Interracial marriage
- What they ~~could~~ will go after next:
- They already are. And have been for a very long time.
- Dancing.
  Tattoos.
  Foreskins.
  Shrimp buffets.
  ...
- Interracial marriage is safe unless Thomas' wedding goes on the rocks.
Yesterday's Last Week Tonight showed Tommy Tubervile making that realization in real time. It was pretty incredible.
- Would that be the same guy who had trouble grasping the concept of "you don't actually need to swear on a bible" live on air?
  
  Possibly. He's extremely stupid.
- Same guy who wore kevlar to the Jan 6th events? Or am I confusing him with fellow dumbass Mo Brooks?
Maybe they should have learned the complete definition of abortion before banning it
This people are so stupid and they make our laws.
"I think the biggest concerns are that people elsewhere forget about us and they think, 'Oh they're just the conservative state, and they're all country bumpkins. Don't worry it will never happen here.'
"And the next thing you know, it is happening in other states that are ultra-conservative."
- As a progressive in Texas...fuckin YEAH. Some of us are trying to bring reality back and it's really annoying to get lumped in with the crazies.
  
  I'm a progressive in Arkansas. I understand that 2/3 of our state vote for terrible people who only want to hurt others. That's a huge portion. But 1/3 of us are still clinging to sanity.
Life is about navigating one's principles versus one's realities.
Xians do exceedingly badly at this in the meta-modern world.
Gotta Love an argument about what god would want while people suffer.
Feel sorry for those caught up in this and I hope some have a light bulb moment.
Leopard's are feasting on faces rn.
It will balance itself out with all the unwanted babies once contraceptives and abortion are banned, and rape is decriminalized.
Spread and populate the universe, sky daddy said. This goes against that

81 comments