Brazil’s Lula compares Israel’s war on Gaza with the Holocaust
Brazil’s Lula compares Israel’s war on Gaza with the Holocaust
www.aljazeera.com
Brazil’s Lula compares Israel’s war on Gaza with the Holocaust
93 comments
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I am sure that if the Israeli government gets together they can come up with a solution to the Hamas problem. They can have a conference somewhere, I hear the Wannsee district of Berlin is nice this time of year.
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come up with a solution
But not just a bandaid solution... probably something more final.
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But would that be the final solution or just some stop gap?
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Say what you want about Lula, but he has some balls.
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What's Israel gonna do about Brazil?
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Play victim as usual.
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Oddly enough, sic the Holocaust Museum on them.
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And then Bibi said he disrespected the memory of 6 million Jews.
No, Bibi. You did that. You've been doing it for years. May God judge you. After you die in a cell.
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The hypocrisy of supporting Israel is so big that any dictator can get an easy dunk on America and garner massive support. How long is America going to stay in denial on this?
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Israel is a Terrorist group based on Nazi ideology.
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And Nazis are Freedom Fighters based on Hamas ideology.
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I don't think 20+million people have been killed in that conflict, so the scale isn't quite there. I do agree it's a genocide with a false pretense of defensive military operations. Israel needs to slow it's roll though because without US backing it doesn't exist in the region.
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It doesn have to have exactly the same number of people die. It's a genocide and they're literally trying to kill all of the Palestinians. It's not about matching numbers, it's about the definition.
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It's going to be a couple of million when all the displaced people starve to death.
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"Israel needs to slow it's roll?"
Voulez Vous BDS?
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Oh oh, you have a different opinion than the majority... Now, it's raining arguments against you.
Oh, wait... It isn't. It's raining downvotes instead, because some people can't handle a different view on that emotion-driven holocaust comparison above.
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This has become a sort of an edgelord thing to say in the geopolitical arena. It's obvious that if Israel and IDF was committing genocide with the same passion and planning as Hitler was doing with the jews, this situation would be completely different.
Additionally, Hamas doesn't declare how many of the killed people have been its fighters. They make it look like all of them are civilians. Are there even estimates about this?
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Well, we could probably take the 15000 or so children off the number, I would guess.
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Perhaps you cannot. Amnesty International thinks Hamas uses children as soldiers: https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/mde150352004en.pdf
Given their religion (dying in holy war is considered a net positive for the individual) and demographics (half of the people are underage), it makes sense if they did.
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As someone from Germany, reading this makes me angry.
I don't have the solution for this conflict, but when seeing the concentration camps in my country and understanding how much they must have hated Jews that they aimed to kill EVERYONE of them....
This is not the same! We all know that Israel did not even want to be there until Hamas butchered and kidnapped Israelis last year. Otherwise, they could have stayed there during the last invasion.
The holocaust comparison does not help anyone.
Edit: Very nice... Downvoting different views on this comparison without sharing arguments... Closing the door for discourse is always very useful!!!!111 There is actually much we could agree on regarding this war, but yeah, go ahead and dislike me for not sharing your view that this is like the Holocaust. I'm from Germany where we visited tge remains of concentration camps twice during school time.... What do I know...? :/
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In case you haven't noticed the blocade of Israel on Food, Water and Energy for Gaza (not to mention their destruction of hospitals in there) and Israel's very own propaganda attack on the biggest humanitarian help organisation in Gaza - the UNWRA - which was without hesitation, disgracefully and shamefully used by countries such as Germany and the US to cut the very funding to the UNWRA that goes to keep Gazans alive, the Israeli Government is most definitely trying to starve Gazans to death, which is cheaper than using Zyklon B but the outcome is the same (it's actually worse as starvation is a very painful and very slow way to die whilst Zyklon B was faster and painless).
It's not a Nazi-level Holocaust yet but the Israeli government (along the nations "unwaveringly" supporting this genocide such as the US and Germany) are most definitelly trying hard to either mass murder Gazans (in many ways, from bombing them to destroying their healthcare facilities and starving them) or pushing them out using terror and starvation as weapons.
Just because the concentration camp in Palestine called Gaza doesn't look like a bunch of sheds with old fashioned razor wire around it but instead looks like an overcrowded city with walls and patrols around it and Israeli gunboats patroling the coast, you haven't yet seen hundreds of films made in Hollywood decrying it (and probably never will: notice how the biggest massacre ever, in Rwanda, has no fancy Hollywood movies reminding us of it), and the sharpshooters murdering women and chidren in it don't zig heil each other, doesn't mean this is not a modern version of the Holocaust in the making.
You stop the Holocaust before it becomes a proper Nazi-level mass murder of people due to their etnicity, you don't just wait until it becomes "just like the Nazi Holocaust" all the while excusing your inaction with "it's not quite like the Nazi Holocaust [yet]" only to turn around after it reaches Nazi-Holocaust levels and claim "there's nothing we could've done".
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to cut the very funding to the UNWRA that goes to keep Gazans alive
Where is the point where you mention that there is proof that multiple (at least 12, maybe more) UNWRA people have actually been involved in the massacre on Israel last year? Oh, you ignored that fact...
which is cheaper than using Zyklon B
Reading this is disgusting.
It should be clear that the more people get killed there, the harder it is for Israel to get support from the Western world in the future. There is no reason to do what the Nazis did and "kill as much as possible of a specific group" here.
It’s not a Nazi-level Holocaust yet
So, you think, it's only a "Mini-holocaust"? Or a "10% holocaust"? I'd suggest not using the word if it does not fit.
To make this a more productive dialog: Given the fact that what happened can't be undone: What would you suggest Israel to do now?
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Gaza has been a concentration camp for a long time now.
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No it hasn't.
The concentration camps in the east, like Auschwitz, were almost exclusively extermination camps meant to wipe out whoever entered on an industrial scale. Gaza is not an extermination camp.
The "normal" concentration camps weren't significantly better. Around 10% - 50% of inmates died, depending on the camp - be it from starvation, illness, medical experimentation or just live target practice.
Is every single Gazan enslaved and forced to build Israeli weapons and does Israel prevent Gazans from leaving under threat of collective punishment?
Gaza is the dictionary definition of a ghetto, not a concentration camp.
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For me, this sounds like you want to say something that sounds cool, rather than something you actually believe. It sounds driven by emotion rather than by rationality.
The lemmy community gives you upvotes, the historians would ask you WTF you are doing and send you an invitation to actually visit what has been such a concentration camp.
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AfD voter detected.
Edit: just to be clear in case you are genuinely uninformed, a good starting point for understanding why shit goes down in Gaza right now and why Israel is wrong is as simple as reading the Wikipedia page for example. It did not start with October 7.
This is not about a "different" point of view.
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Two things can both be bad without being equally bad.
The war has been terrible. But do you really think it's been as bad as Treblinka or Babi Yar?
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- The AfD is a waste of oxygen, so you are wrong about that.
- I wrote about the "last invasion" in my post, so I think, it's obvious that I know that something happened before the massacre last year.
Here is one more example why especially Germany does also not see "the time before" as a holocaust and thinks that the comparison is bullshit: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-66741336
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Germany's role as a moral shield for Israel's genocide is the most disgusting part of this whole ordeal.
I've read about the Staatsräson with some bemusement. It seems that Germany's lesson from the Holocaust is not that there should be no more genocide but that Zionist Jews can do whatever they want.
Germany is always on the wrong side of history it seems.
If you want Germany to atone for Nazism, give Israel your country rather than making the Palestinians pay for your crimes for the last 75 years.
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If you want Germany to atone for Nazism, give Israel your country
Sounds fancy, but this is as realistic as a permanent peace with Gaza as long as it is controlled by the Hamas terrorists that have the main goal to destroy Israel.
Staatsräson
In Germany, the word is criticised, because of the "Interpretationsspielraum" ("wiggle room").
but that Zionist Jews can do whatever they want.
There are multiple German politicians warning about a disaster in Rafah, about flooding tunnels with sea water, etc. Acting like Germany is cheering "Well done, go on!!!" is far away from the truth.
Germany is always on the wrong side of history it seems.
Interesting, because Germany was and is kind of well aligned with the Western World for the last decades...
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Israel cannot let Palestinians live as human beings because they out-number the Israelis. Giving then rights would give the Palestinians a majority in voting etc. So the Israeli's opted to treat the Palestinians like sub humans. Treating an entire country as subhumans... For decades... has consequences.
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Israel cannot let Palestinians live as human beings because they out-number the Israelis.
Is this even true? As far as I know, there are more people in Israel than people in Westbank + Gaza combined.
Giving then rights would give the Palestinians a majority in voting etc.
There are some common solution suggestions (2-state-solution or even 3-state-solution) which don't require giving Palestinians rights in Israel, but rather rights in their own state(s).
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History didn't start on Oct 7th
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And if Hamas stays the government of Gaza, we can be sure, that it won't end in this decade.
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We all know that Israel did not even want to be there until Hamas butchered and kidnapped Israelis last year.
Also German here. If you haven't yet acknowledged that the Israeli right-wing has been openly racist and fascist for decades now, committing war crimes left and right in the West Bank and in its overall treatment of Gaza (even without direct settlement) you're acknowledging less than the foreign service. If you think that "Benjamin von Papen" or "Itamir Ben-Hitler" are off-base (as opposed to merely edgy) you know neither our own history, nor anything about the current state of Israeli politics.
Remember that what's currently litigated before the ICJ is not "did Israel do bad stuff" but "Is Israel guilty of genocide, or merely extensive war crimes".
The German foreign service has been stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to Israel for quite a while, now. "Israel has a right to exist, Jews have a right to a place they can legitimately call home and feel safe in" vs. "A fascist Israel is not a safe home for anyone, including Jews". Language-wise they always emphasise the former while when you look at UN votes, aid spending etc. the emphasis is on the latter.
The difference to historical Germany is, pretty much, that constitutionally speaking Israel is still in the Weimar stage and somehow unlike Germany back then isn't engaged in a right-out shooting war between civil society factions. Kahanites are way better at optics than the NSDAP ever was, knows how to spin things abroad, "bombing civilians is self-defence". They also have a convenient fig-leaf in Palestinian fascists (Hamas), and vice versa. There's going to be no security for Israelis without Palestinian freedom, and no Palestinian freedom without Israeli security, fascists simply aren't interested in that they want to continue their eternal war, it's where they derive their power from.
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Also German here. If you haven’t yet acknowledged that the Israeli right-wing has been openly racist and fascist for decades now, committing war crimes left and right in the West Bank and in its overall treatment of Gaza (even without direct settlement) you’re acknowledging less than the foreign service.
Gaza is not West bank! I did not claim that Netanyahu does not want to control parts of the west bank area.
Remember that what’s currently litigated before the ICJ is not “did Israel do bad stuff” but “Is Israel guilty of genocide, or merely extensive war crimes”.
And they are more qualified to decide that than you or me or all the others here who use buzzword like "holocaust", "concentration camp", "genocide", ... like it's their default vocabulary to build sentences.
There’s going to be no security for Israelis without Palestinian freedom, and no Palestinian freedom without Israeli security
I agree with that part.
And in my opinion, for Plastinian freedom and a secure Israel, Hamas must lose power, Netanyahu must lose power and 2 new government need to negotiate a 2-states-solution.
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93 comments
This shit needs to be said. Zionists are using Nazi tactics. They should be ashamed of themselves.
Exactly, Lula is only saying the same thing as millions of other people who don't have a world stage to say it on.
@Mokopa yeah. I agree with Lula that it's a genocide and it's good seeing another world leader have the balls to say it.
I don't agree with the part where he says nothing like it has happened in history. There've been multiple genocides, not just this and the holocaust.