Since many people seem to believe you can't tow with cars, here's roughly what dutch people end up doing on vacation.
Since many people seem to believe you can't tow with cars, here's roughly what dutch people end up doing on vacation.
224 comments
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This seems not very fuck cars but ok. Also who does not know you can tow with a car?
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I think this is in response to stupid large truck vs kei truck thread that made the front page. All the car brains are going on about how everyone ever needs a stupid large truck to tow 85 boats at once
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While you don’t need a massive truck to tow things, I also can’t recommend towing with a VW Golf. Towing isn’t just pulling a trailer, it’s also stopping a trailer, keeping it steady at speed, and having a transmission that can handle it and keep temps in check. Longer wheelbases do help with stability at speed and sports brakes aren’t built for towing.
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Oh you mean those 4 door vans that are passed off as a truck? Yeah no one should get those, they can't even tow all that well and what can you even use a 4 foot bed for? These are likely the same people that think you should get a $130k 5th wheel that is 32 feet long.
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You are completely correct I was essentially trying to move along the conversation from the last post.
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I find it very strange that Americans consider 'trucks' and 'cars' to be two separate things. Trucks are cars.
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I have a stupid large truck that can tow boats at 85 (2013 tundra stock) to tow the family camper and I keep that bad boy under 65 when towing and always drive like a kid is going to run out in front. Sure I could drive a kei truck and would fucking love it, however my truck is the smallest in height that I could have gotten that could pull the weight I needed (and if possible I'll make it shorter). Fuck paying the stupid prices at hotels and airbnbs, I camp with my towable home for $30-$80 a night.
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That thread was specifically telling craftspeople that they could do their jobs with the little Kei truck rather than a larger one.
If you use your truck for actual work, you want it to be able to do the job. The Kei truck cannot do the same job as the big truck.
It was a stupid comparison. It's like telling someone that they don't need a bucket truck to work on overhead lines or do tree trimming, they can just use a ladder hauled around in a Kei truck. See? Stupid as fuck.
No, the correct post to make would have been to point out the obvious fact that 95% of those huge trucks sold are not used for any sort of work at all, they're just expensive and obnoxious fashion statements.
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I mean this kind of mentality serves me well in Kerbal, but..
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In my personal American experience, there’s a general notion that you need a pickup truck to tow anything; there’s so much marketing about how big tough pickup trucks can tow so much stuff and you really need this. So I think the implication of this post is less of a “fuck cars” and more of a “fuck trucks in particular”
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I use my old 3/4 ton all the time it is great for yard work and getting stuff (big things not like groceries). But I would never think of using it to commute or move people. I think people get sold on these trucks being all big and powerful but they always seem to use them like a minivan, and a minivan also can tow things.
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AI drive a compact SUV (a glorified hatchback with a raised wheelbase), and took a trailer to cover the western US for my vacation this year, but looking at the vehicle in the post: The only way that works because the car drives at sea level with no grade. I had a trailer, with brakes, ~150 lbs below of my car’s recommended towing capacity, and coming over some passes sounded like I was taking thousands of miles off my car’s transmission.
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Americans, which is how this post got started. Over on the site that shall remain nameless, one guy unironically told me that I might be able to tow a 150lbs. sailboat with my bicycle on flat ground, but to go up hills would require his truck. Anecdotally, I know a couple who bought a Ford Model F truck to tow a 700lbs. sailboat, because it takes a truck to tow things, despite the total weight of the boat and trailer being less than half the rated capacity for a Honda Civic.
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I agree but diesel cars are much more common in Europe and they have better towing capacity due to higher torque.
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Not the core issue. My car does not run on Diesel, but I would not have any issues dragging such a caravan around. That is perfectly normal in Europe.
Why the Americans think one would need a thick fat pickup or truck just to pull a caravan is beyond me. Maybe it is just smart marketing to make people buy even bigger cars than they ever need.
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A quick search shows a civic can tow 1,100 lbs. A dodge caravan can tow 3,600 lbs. An F-150 tows 14,000 lbs.
Now someone may have a legitimate reason to need to tow thousands of pounds, such as someone who moves horses around.
But for normal use, my tool trailer comes in under 1,000kg (2,200 lbs); maybe someone working in a mountainous area would need more power? Most likely marketing.
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The caravans in Europe are much lighter than the trailers in North America.
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Well our Rv are way larger then that most of the time. That's why the most popular models are self mobile
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That's about to change. After finding out the vast minority, if not all, car manufacturer were found cheating emissions tests, diesel car usage has been limited and production stopped, or will stop in the near future.
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That’s about to change. After finding out the vast minority, if not all, car manufacturer were found cheating emissions tests, diesel car usage has been limited and production stopped, or will stop in the near future.
i'm aware of volkwagen and co. doing this; what other manufacturers have been caught?
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Once at work I said "My Audi sedan has a towing capacity of over 5,000 lbs, isn't that crazy?" A coworker said "That's almost as much as my Tacoma!" (Early 2000s model). Turns out 5,000 is closer to his combined vehicle weight + towing capacity.
I remember my grandfather using the Grand Prix to tow and pull out stumps and stuff instead of the work truck.
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The old Passat 4motion v6 diesels, B5.5 for those who want to know, were in fact bought by people who wanted to tow, because it had something insane like 3.5 tonnes of rated towing capacity. The 6mt ones anyway.
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Diesel wagons are the absolute best daily drivers for most people that actually need a car. Great for long distances, great for towing, and the cargo space is amazing, while the balance of sporty handling and comfort is better than an SUV because with more mass and height, you just have to sacrifice comfort to get any sort of sportiness and of course nearly every manfuacturer does, so you end up with a more compromised ride quality.
Of course short distances at cold temperatures are where diesels suck, but I mean, if you only drive short distances in the city, the car might be needed after all.
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Good job buddy. U tah man!
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But will it pull a camper for two that actually sleeps 10 at 85 mph up hill in a 65 mph speed zone?
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Out of experience: yes, but illegally.
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no no it's a 55 cuz it's the interstate and it designed for you to safely drive 100
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My people out east can teach you something.
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Does it count as a motorized vehicule?
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There's definitely an engine, i think that checks out
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that's a much better set up !
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Its probably worth noting that Europeans get more powerful cars than we do here in the US. I drive a 02 Golf TDI and it was only available as a 1.9L 90hp front wheel drive. The base model in Europe has a bigger turbo and offers 4wd versions.
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I wonder why that is
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for make you buy a suv or pickup with a v8 i guess.
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Diesel emissions regulations specifically are stricter in the US than in the EU. Gasoline emissions are not. And I guess pickup trucks aren't cars so they might have different diesel emissions standards than cars?
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I've also noticed the European versions of cars are rated to tow more. The Hyundai Ioniq I had wasn't rated to tow anything in America. It would void my warranty. The European version was rated for 1000lbs or something like that. Europeans demand the ability to tow while I guess in America we just don't expect a small car to do it.
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Probably a result of how legislation is designed for different towing strategies. From what I've seen, the US favors trailers with higher hitch weight and axles further back, requiring more substantial and heavy towing vehicles, but allowing for higher speeds. In Europe, trailers are more balanced with hitch weights in the 100-150lbs range, but speed limits are lower (50ish mph).
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Did your car have a factory tow hook option? Because on many cars the "tow hook" option, makes the car come with a bunch of stuff. A strengthened rear bar, often auxillary oil coolers for the gearbox, sometimes different final drive, restriction to only a MT, or a completely different gearbox alltogether. So maybe for some reason the US ioniq didn't have the parts available that made the ioniq be safe to tow with...
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This was my exact point from earlier - most cars that can tow a bunch of stuff in Europe or Australia simply don't get tow ratings here at all. And yes, manufacturers will void your waranty of you do tow anything. It's infuriating.
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That's crazy I didn't realize they had such low horsepower. I guess that makes sense, a diesel engine has high torque. I have a 2017 golf tsi, and it gets around 170 horsepower for comparison. I have always loved and wanted one of those TDIs.
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The 02 had the 90 I think. But yeah obv. everybody bought the 116 the 131 or the 2liters.
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Dutch people must not have many steep hills.
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You wouldn't believe it, but they routinely haul these over major alpine passes. Works well on climbs, but sharp corners and switchbacks require careful handling, causing everyone else a bit of grief.
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The don't.. but the neighboring countries do. That's where this caravan is going
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or sharp corners
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We certainly do in the UK and I've seen people pulling Caravans up them with their cars. Maybe Europeans are just better drivers than yanks?
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Yanks are so accustomed to the idea that "more litres = more torque" that they actually can't imagine the amount of engineering that's gone in to smaller more efficient European and Japanese engines.
≈1hp per cc is pretty standard in modern cars but why invest in all that engineering when you can pour cheap gasoline down the throat of your 5 litre V8?
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Just make sure it's rated for the load you're towing and whatever works.
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But that's the point. The same exact same vehicle rated in Europe will not have any rating in the US and they will tell you how you need a truck to tow.
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I’ve found a tow rating for almost any car I’ve had, at least the past 15 years.
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Of course, otherwise you get a fine for endangering traffic.
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if you saw the sheer scope of trailers, campers, Tour Bus RV's, custom toy haulers etc that invade the coastal areas of where I live, you would realize the problem isn't the semantics of tow vehicle size. the whole "adventure camping" myth when two people bring a 800 square foot Motorcoach with a car in tow makes me want to vomit. its like a car brain with sepsis. leave your fucking house at home.
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Whenever I see a giant RV towing a giant SUV bigger than any of the vehicles I own I get a little frustrated and irritated. If you want to explore the country you can do it without taking every amenity and gadget from home. Just go out there, see and be in the world, don't take the 'world' with you.
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Just yesterday I was towing about a half to 2/3 of a cord of a wood with my wagon. Folks assume you need a giant truck to tow anything. Full disclosure though I was pushing the limits of my car, it pulls this weight without issue but stopping it risky and I have to drive very carefully and keep huge buffers between myself and the next car.
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Been there as a kid in the 90s. Sitting in the back my my parents Toyota Carina with my 2 siblings, while we were towing a caravan.
That car had a 2l, 4 cylinder petrol and got through the Alps and Pyrenees. Iwas more comfortable touring that way than going by tent only. Now I'm in Australia where I'm gobsmacked by how much shit people "need" to go camping. All while I'm exploring the same locations and actually spending more time camping in the bush as I tour on a tiny, economical 125cc motorcycle.
Almost to prove a point, I took that little thing to Cape York and will take it RTW next year, partly to show that you don't need much.
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True, but the reason in the US is different is because of laws.
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Yeah, a lot of laws seem to favor trucks in the US. The vehicles aren't different, the laws and regulations are.
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Well, the US has the best democracy money can buy, and someone paid a lot to make the worst kind of cars the de facto standard.
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My camping setup fits in some boxes I have on my 650cc motorcycle. Don't even need to tow anything.
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Something interesting about a camper like in the picture in Europe, to me, is where the axle is. It looks much more centered than the campers I see in the US and I have no idea why. The way the axle is in the picture certainly reduces tongue weight on the car. I wonder if the trade off is less stability at high speed? Genuinely curious!
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The typical tongue loading for a traditional trailer like that is 10%. If you start getting too light it will start swerving from side to side at higher speeds and can lead to a jack knife accident from the tail wagging the dog. Most likely the trailer has heavy stuff designed into the front.
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In the US, in Europe trailers are much more balanced however the speed limit for trailers is lower.
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It will also likely have a stabiliser fitted.
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Tongue weight in Europe (EU) is much less than in the US. In Europe it's typically 4 % of the trailer weight.
Instability at higher speeds is less of an issue in Europe, as the maximum allowed towing speed is 100 km/h. Depending on the type of trailer and country, it can also be lower. Trailers above 750 kg are always braked with overrun brakes and require an additional driver's license (class BE instead of B).
Trucks are limited to 90 km/h, buses to 100 km/h. As you can see, caravans and motorhomes in Europe fit right into the flow of other slower traffic.
Having vehicles traveling at different speeds, requires good lane discipline though. It is the law in most of Europe to drive in the rightmost lane possible, unless you are overtaking.
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The excuse for buying these compensators is they need them to tow. And yet I've rarely seen one ever used to tow. I saw this juxtaposition in my local area:
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That's not a truck, it's an obnoxious fashion statement.
At the same time, I've seen trucks just like that (maybe not as long) towing flatbed trailers with literal tons of stuff on the back. The sort of shit you need a forklift or tractor to load and unload. I've also seen those same forklifts and tractors on trailers.
The thing is, I live way out in the boonies, so that shit is common to see.
This same truck in any sort of city is an obnoxious fashion statement. It's all about location.
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FTFY: That’s not a truck, it’s an obnoxious
fashioncompensation for lack of dick statement.
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It's so big, he could probably just put the horse in the glove compartment.
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The question isn't "can you", but "should you".
An engine that's always working at near it's maximum capacity will fail long before an engine that's working at a quarter of it's capacity. Most people wouldn't dream of constantly running their engine bouncing off the red line of rev limiter. The same applies to towing; if you frequently tow large, heavy loads (for instance, earth moving equipment), you want to get a vehicle that's rated for much higher tonnage than the weight you'll regularly be towing. Given that campers are usually very light weight (but only slightly more aerodynamic than a brick), you can get away with towing on in a car infrequently. You should probably not do it daily.
You may also find that it's less fuel efficient to tow a heavy load in a small-ish car than the same load in a light truck.
(BTW - I'm generally opposed to taking vacations in this way. I prefer my vacations on a motorcycle, or on foot with a backpack. I'm not currently in the kind of shape I would need to be in in order to do bicycle camping.)
Edit: I don't have a truck. It's cheaper for me to rent one on the rare occasions that I need one than it is to buy one and deal with the associated costs of owenership. That said, the Home Depot rental trucks suck, because they're solely RWD, and they have no grip on my road unless there's a literal ton of weight in the back.
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Nobody complains about big cars whilst they're towing, and if they were doing it everyday you would see them.. well.. everyday towing, but they typically are not.
Fuel efficiency that you lose whilst towing you would gain on the other 99% of your kms.
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Yep. There is one guy in town with a private pickup. I wonder what he is shopping for in the bakery when his F150 blocks two parking lots.
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I live in a country where everyone buys used cars from western Europe and it's semi-common knowledge among car people that you should avoid Dutch cars with tow hitches (and the used car yards that bring their cars from Holland tend to have the worst reputation).
That said, if you only tow heavy loads maybe a thousand, tow thousand kilometers a year, it doesn't really matter. It's prolonged heavy towing that kills the small car.
Anyway, my midsize diesel car can tow way more than I personally am legally allowed to and I prefer throwing a tent in the trunk to towing a camper, so my car sees maybe <500 km of light-weight towing a year and under a metric ton you can barely feel the hit to fuel efficiency or performance (because diesel torque is ridiculous)
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Only very few people regularly pull caravans. I worked for one, but he a) sold caravans and b) had the car to pull them.
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‘What Dutch people do on vacantion’ using a French car for the picture.
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Ah yes, the famously French "Volkswagen"
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But not the famously Dutch "Volkswagen”
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You can tow with anything. The question becomes, how long can you tow with it. If I'm buying a car and it has a hitch on it, I'm not buying that one unless it just had a transmission put in it or I got it cheap enough that I can put a new transmission in it.
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People think you can't tow with cars? What?
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They just love to take every excuse to buy a truck
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I have no issues towing my caravan - although I tend to keep to 80kph and pull over if I see someone behind me. The caravan does have electric brakes though, weights 800kg unladen.
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This actually the reason why I really don't like it how so many folks take tow hitches off of antique cars as I'm told they used to be on damn near every car during the 50s and 60s today while yes today they are quite impractical but like you don't have to have a trailer on a hitched car 247 but still your making a already impractical car and making it slightly more impractical
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Tow hitches are an essential thing for me, even though I would never tow a trailer. Reason being? Bike rack on the hitch. It's so much easier to load then on the roof, no risk of destroying anything and carrying bikes on the roof is not possible with heavy e-bikes. You don't need a flatbed to carry 2 bikes to your destination (as you can see in the picture)
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Me and my family used to go camping. We always towed with my father's car.
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Aw man, no way 50 horses could pull this, gotta have at least 500.
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I used to tow in the UK with a Chrysler Voyager ( American Made, 7 x Seater SUV ) it did pretty well.
Fully ladden, all seats occupied + a dog, 2 x Roof Boxes and towing my massive Trailer Tent.
Even came back from one holiday on Three cylinders cus of a HT Lead fault and yes we went up some pretty steep hills, just needed to get a bit of a run at them that's all, lol.
Great Fun 😊
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Wouldn't this be more an issue of manual vs automatic transmissions? I would think towing in a manual with a healthy clutch should work just fine. Whereas, I would towing could have negative implications for the lifespan of a car's automatic transmission.
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The real issue is the drivetrain itself, transmission will likely be fine regardless as long as it is rated to carry a certain capacity.
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Forget the wear and tear of towing and look at the towing capacity and safety. Cars here in the US aren't rated too safely tow much, hell even trucks have a pretty low limit.
So either the car in the picture was rated to tow a higher weight (could be the unibody or frame, or other structural components), or the laws there are more liberal towards towing safety and weights, or this is an ultra light camper that is safe to tow.
Not all campers or cars are made alike, same with laws around them.
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I had a 2005 Camry which broke down last year, so I replaced it with a 2015 Mazda 5. The towing section of the manual for the Camry said something along the lines of "Well, this car is not really intended for towing, but if you must use it for that, here's what you have to do…". For the Mazda, the manual just says that it is not recommended to use the car for towing at all.
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Cars and trucks can fuck off, and most pick-up truck owners are fooling themselves by buying into a lifestyle they don’t actually live, but I still would not recommend towing any significant distance with a Golf. You can tow with a hatchback, but it’s not really that safe and your speed is very limited, making you a huge annoying moving obstacle for the rest of us cursed to live in this world designed for cars.
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Why is it not safe? If the manufacturer rates the Golf for towing 2000 kg, it is capable of doing so safely.
Speeds while towing in Europe are lower. 100 km/h is the maximum, but many trailers are only rated for 80 km/h and some countries also have lower speed limits for towing in general.
You are therefore traveling the same speed as trucks (up to 90 km/h) and buses (up to 100 km/h). Buses and trucks have mandatory speed limiters since a couple of decades and therefore never drive faster than those speeds.
There are more differences between European and American towing setups. You can look at my other reply, if you want. ;)
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My neighbour tows his caravan with a Mini and my brother tows gliders with a Suzuki Swift.
Golfs are plenty strong.
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but it’s not really that safe
Funny though, that European regulatory bodies consider it safe, and they are actually stricter than their American counterparts.
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Why shouldn't you? The car is rated and tested for it.
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Of course you should. It's so common here, Top Gear did a whole episode about how much they hate caravans. It's kind of like the UK equivalent of
toxicinsecure US men banging on about how much they love guns.Very few are towed by SUVs because most people who go caravanning own much more modest cars (in part because they spent a small fortune on the caravan).
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There is still way too much car on this pictures.
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But they are not alitowing caravans. That one time a year to France. Unlike Americans who drive a dodge ram to supermarket around the corner because they don't even have sidewalks
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Holland is mostly flat ground.
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Yet they come in my French hilly area every year 🤷
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Yeah but these are usually taken to France or Germany where uphill definitely exists.
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I've seen them towing caravans over the Alps with a Golf.
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I'm nearly certain that camper is way over that car's tow capacity. If so this is dangerous and stupid. Drivers like this, who endanger everyone else even near the road for their inability to use common sense, should be banned from society.
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The caravan looks to be a Wilk Sento, which has a maximum weight of 1300-1500kg depending on the model. The car is a Mk. 7 Golf, rated for towing 1300-2000kg depending on the model. This person could have opted for the cheapest Golf and most expensive caravan, filled the caravan to the brim and then you'd be right. But I think it's more likely that this is perfectly safe and you're just making snap judgements.
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Every single caravan in Europe looks like this. That is the point of the post. From what I have understood so far, either American cars are intentionally built worse so that a much bigger car is needed for the same weight or car salesmen just lie about how big you need your car to be.
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This is a completely normal towing setup for Europe, nothing out of the ordinary. No one would even question it, since this is how "everyone" tows in Europe. This is legal and safe.
You can look at Google Street View and you will see that most caravans are being towed by hatchbacks, wagons and (crossover) SUVs.
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This absolutely isn't uncommon in Europe.
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Nope, wrong. That the American regulations are biased to discourage normal cars to tow is not a safety issue, it is just the result of successful lobbying of the American car industry.
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It probably would be in the US, but laws and regulations are different in Europe. The US favors huge heavy towing vehicles and higher tongue weights to allow for higher speeds, Europe limits speeds and allows for normal cars and more balanced trailers. We also have lower speed limits for semi-trailers and similar vehicles, so they fit right in.
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224 comments
I still find it frustrating to see the exact same vehicles get significantly different tow ratings here vs Europe.
The other day the dealer tried to warn not to tow my utility trailer with my car as it would hurt the transmission (trailer was empty by the way). I pulled up an article from the UK where it was in the top three of best towing cars for this year.
Dealer looked at me like his brain needed to reboot, after which he told me the cars in Europe must be built differently or get different transmissions and left it at that.
It's truly baffling that manufacturers here hold that towing capacity hostage for arbitrary reasons.
There might actually be technical reasons for this.
E. g. top speed in Europe while towing is 100 km/h (some countries and trailers less), whereas in the US you can drive up to the designated speed limit.
Bearing load is also different, in Europe it's usually 4 % of the trailer weight, in the US at least 10 % is recommended.
Trailers are also different, e. g. unbraked trailers only exist up to 750 kg in Europe, whereas in the US I've seen much heavier trailers without brakes.
Trailer brakes are also different, Europe uses overrun brakes, the US electronic brakes.
I've never heard the term "overrun brakes" (TIL!) before. I've always called them surge brakes, and they are widespread in the U.S. on the majority of boat trailers.
That's actually the most reasonable explanation I've seen so far, and it helps explain a bunch (one small correction: most states have a towing speed limit of either 55 or 65 mph, so just about the same or slower than in Europe. Canada is even worse with most provinces limiting highway towing speed to 80-90kmh). That said, it still doesn't make any sense that our tow rating does not take into account the presence of a brake controller (that is to say, the stated towing capacity does not list braked and unbraked separately in most cars except trucks).
It's so they can sell you SUVs.
My SUV can have a hitch addon but it's towing capacity is less than a ton lol