Installing Linux Doesn't Need to Change. The Experience Does.

Didn't watch the video... but the premise "The biggest barrier for the new Linux user isn't the installer" is exactly why Microsoft is, sadly, dominating the end-user (not servers) market.

What Microsoft managed to do with OEMs is NOT to have an installer at all! People buy (or get, via their work) a computer and... use it. There is not installation step for the vast majority of people.

I'm not saying that's good, only that strategy wise, if the single metric is adoption rate, no installer is a winning strategy.

Most people who go out and buy a computer doesn't understand what an OS is. If Linux was standard when you bought a PC, it would be the dominating OS. I mean, you could switch the OS to Linux on the computers and I think most people wouldn't realise when they buy it lol
- Indeed, so my argument is that sure a "better" installer might change a small fraction of the marketshare, say 1%, but it's not enough to change significantly, say 10% or even reach parity.
  An interesting example is the Steam Deck coming with Linux installed. Sure there are few people who do (by choice) install Windows alongside Linux but AFAIK the vast majority do not. That's IMHO particularly interesting on a topic, gaming, where Windows has been traditionally the #1 reason people picked a specific OS.
- I think they would. I tried Linux again for the first time in 10+ years and kept running into issues like my sound would randomly die or change to headset, when I tried to update the video driver it hard- locked the system, etc. I just installed Ubuntu the other day and whenever it boots the monitor just goes into standby with no signal. It's been nothing but trouble, and I have pretty normal hardware. Most people aren't going to know or care how to deal with those problems. As far as Linux has come, it's still not ready for widespread adoption by most people on the 'it just works' front.
Even then those who have to installers don't really have a good experience with distros of wide market share (narrowing to Linux distros only), especially with whatever fresh hell Calamares is. (It doesn't even support LVM or just installation with specified mounts points if you already set up your partition layout!)
Seriously, I've had better experience with the installer Ubuntu Server uses.
- It does "support" LVM, but with a wacky/hacky workaround and that's a real shame !
  Also, there is some talking on github on how they will probably completely drop LVM in the near futur... That's not what someone should expect from a Linux installer!
I looked for a reasonable Linux laptop for my wife and either it was European (large shipping costs) or ridiculously marked up.
She just went with a windows laptop 🤷‍♀️
- I bet the local Linux User Group would know. Seems too late for that purchase but worth checking for the next one.
Linux definitively does dominate the end user market. You just mean the end user desktop/laptop market.
I agree though that preinstallation is the biggest deal. The fact that people have to install Linux at all is the problem. The installer itself is already 100x better than the Windows one, but that's not enough.
Not to mention it means manufacturers ensure all the hardware is compatible, drivers etc are installed and working, which is why windows users feel it works better.
- If you mean unrootable Googled Android then I don't consider that Linux. If you mean something else please clarify.

The vast majority of people have no experience installing an OS and likely never will.

The typical user uses whatever is preinstalled when the get the hardware.

My father-in-law wrecked his windows pc with malware over and over so I bought him a Wow PC https://www.mywowcomputer.com/ and he loves it. I don't think he has any idea its running linux.

How do updates work with WOW computers? Or does the software just never get updated? Or do you just update the computer for him every now and then? What distro is this using underneath?
- The updates are automatic. They seem to have rolled their own desktop environment. Not sure which distro. The main selling point was that I don't need to maintain it for him. I am registered as his "tech buddy" so they contact me if something needs to be done hands on. In 3 years no issues/calls so far.
- Yeah, I was just thinking this needs a lot more upfront info. I mean, kudos for the site that harkens back to the 90's infomercial era and keeping it comfortable for those generations, but a page with some specs and actual info would go nicely with that.
- From the website landing page :
  New programs and updates are provided automatically for the life of your WOW! Computer.
  From https://www.mywowcomputer.com/open-source/
  Distro is based on tiny core
  The source files can be found by following 3 links deep to https://www.telikin.com/source/ doesn't look like they include their frontend though, which might be proprietary, idk.
  (you lazy bastard /j)
Lol only $1300
Honestly I think the bigger barrier is the BIOS. The button to get to the boot menu is different on every motherboard.
- My brother in Christ, do you think an average person knows what BIOS/boot menu are?
formerly firstSTREET® - for Boomers and Beyond®, Inc
Lmao
- i sure hope they aren't still the same specs (ancient celeron 2gb/32gb flash) for $1100+. but kinda suspect they might be.

Oh look. Yet another post demanding things from a volunteer-based community without actually volunteering their own time to work on solving the problem they're insisting needs solving.

I'm sure these demands will totally make a difference in ways that putting their time into actually writing code wouldn't.

- Correct. There are actual efforts going on to resolve those issues. Which begs the question, why post vague exhortations for people to "do something" about this, rather than focusing the efforts in places where it will make a difference?
  This isn't a post saying "hey, come to this project and pitch in." This post is just bitching into the ether and then some folks getting butthurt when the pointless performative nonsense is called out for what it is.
  Posts like this one happen on a near-daily basis all across FOSS mailing lists. It's trivial to find numerous, often young, often inexperienced people who think their idea is the one that "fixes everything". These people reason that everyone should fall over one another to put effort into their magical idea once they see the obviousness and correctness of the idea. Clearly, it's simply incorrect to find fault in an obviously perfect idea such as this one.
  It's just so weird that literally none of the people with these amazing ideas are the ones doing a "git init" and getting started on the work of actually implementing their amazing ideas. Bizarre how so many spectacular, world-changing ideas need to be worked on by literally anyone BUT their champion. What a horrible world we must live in filled with nasty, evil people who simply won't volunteer their personal time when we should feel so blessed with this holy relic of an idea.
  This narrative is so childish that the only response it deserves is the one echoed by nearly the entire FOSS community, "Patches welcome!"
And that attitude is why adoption will remain low
- There goes the Q4 profit goals of the FOSS community.
- ROFL. Kiddo, I've been contributing to OSS for over two decades. The day I start caring about what non-contributors think is the day I stop writing code. Either show up with patches or STFU.
By that logic I should demand to get payed for testing your "free" software in real environment
- Not testing, using.

Just saying, not my experience. I have used linux for over 25 years and nontechnical users in my family have also for almost 20 years. By in large it has worked just fine.

The big issue is Linux is not the OS that is supplied when people go to the store and buy something (well except for Android and Chromebooks which are Linux and are popular). It is also not the system or have the apps their friends use. It also does not have the huge supply, support, and word of mouth ecosystem. Buying hardware especially addons is confusing. Getting support is hard unless you have friends that use. Buying Linux preinstalled often costs more. Change too is hard and there has to be some driver and for most people there is not.

I've been a "heavy" user(/admin) of Linux in the server space for about 12 years now, but only recently through a new employment opportunity have I become a daily Linux desktop user. Last weekend - slowly coming to the realization that Linux can really satisfy all my personal needs (including gaming that supports DLL injection) - I thought I'd like to see how feasible this would now be for the kind of end-user that I encounter as customers and friends, family members etc.
Having chosen CachyOS for myself a lot of my needs are now met brilliantly by the AUR, but of course I don't see this being a realistic proposal for an end-user. Flatpaks on the other hand I am now (and previously through my Steam Deck) encountering as a super straightforward way of covering a lot of ground in terms of the kinds of apps people may need, and having them remain usable across system upgrades and such. I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but with Flathub I feel that there's not just everything there that probably covers 95% of non-tech-savvy people's needs, there's even stuff in there that you can't get anywhere else with a simple install button. Like a youtube-dl UI for example.
Anyways this isn't even the story I'm trying to tell, sorry for the tangent. So I thought if I'm ever going to recommend any distro to someone it's gonna have to be an immutable one, but based on what I just said I'd say any distribution (immutable or not) is going to be dead in the water if it doesn't come with Flatpak support out of the box. And so the choices in terms of popular ones (according to ChatGPT) were VanillaOS and Fedora Silverblue/Kinoite. (Personally I use KDE now but I think the most approachable DE is always going to be Gnome hands down unless you're talking outdated hardware.)
So I set up VanillaOS in a VM, latest ISO from their website, went through the installer, all went fine until the reboot where I was basically just met by a lengthy splash screen and then some GTK error saying it failed to launch or whatever and then the screen just remains black indefinitely. Obviously this isn't supposed to happen, it's probably something to do with my virtualized setup, but if there's any chance of this happening on the physical machine of a person in need of a digital revolution in their life then this is certainly not what I'm going to recommend to them.
Next up, Fedora Silverblue. Went through the installer, the Fedora one is already a great starting point in terms of simplicity. Rebooted into a working Desktop Environment, so already winning on that front. I had one minor problem there where the last step of the Initial Setup process would just hang if I wanted it to enable Third party sources straightaway. If I left that off I could finish and finally get to my Desktop. Then I would open the Gnome "Software" app and it would basically ask the same thing in a more convoluted manner but basically that means there's a second "chance" to enable third party sources without having to find something in a settings menu. It's a little more fussy than if the checkbox had just worked on the Initial Setup but I guess I could see many people work through this if I told them "don't check that last checkbox and then check it in the Software app".
It's weird that both avenues I tried came up with problems that seem way too on the nose to be overlooked. Or who knows what factored into those problems, but really they shouldn't even be within the realm of possibility. For a setup process to yield a black screen or hang itself if the wrong checkbox is clicked are the kind of things that (imho) are going to define when the "Year of the Linux Desktop" meme will stop being a meme. If you can give me an immutable Linux with Flatpak support out of the box which can be booted on a SecureBoot enabled computer and which will reliably install to a working Desktop then we're talking. For now, my recommendation is Fedora Silverblue. Slap that onto a USB-Stick and you have a somewhat attainable Linux installer that mere mortals can make use of.
- Keep in mind you choose basically uncommon niche distributions. Go to distrowatch and choose one of the top 5 or so and use the distro repos and security updates. No flatpack is not needed for a well supported distro. That is especially true for one of the common Debian based distros.

Or users could maybe learn how to do things without having their hands held and treated like babies every step of the way; or at least how to search for information to find what they need... 🤷🏻‍♂️

A person can only specialize in a small number of things.
I’m happy to learn about computers, but when it comes to, say, cars, I have no desire to learn. If I have a car problem, I don’t have the knowledge of how to even look up a problem.
- In today world, you don't need to specialize in something to fix basic issues. Simple online search will help you with most basic issues You encounter which is probably 60-70% issues most people have with cars, computers or etc.
  I don't blame people that they can't recompile a kernel, applying a patch to fix some random issue. But I blame people that didn't want to spend 30s on searching how to fix their minor issue like for example checking execute permission for appimage, Search engines today even tell you how to do it in a small AI window on top of the page.
  Internet really helped people to gain a basic knowledge in a matter of seconds and yet they still don't want it
- Can you put gas in your car? Do you know how to check your oil and add more? Can you put wiper fuild in? Do you know how to check coolant levels?
  Most importantly: do you know how to RTFM to do this stuff if needed?
  That would put you miles above the typical PC using idiot that we keep coddling by ruining things we use.
search for information when Google intentionally lies to you and hides results to keep you on their site looking at ads longer …
- Adblockers will fix part of that. Using the "web" link on the results will make the search a lot better, too.
They could. But you and I both know they won't because most people don't care about anything beyond 'make the magic box work so I can do my job / play my game / etc.'
- Because we keep feeding them stupid pills and encouraging them not to think. Microsoft was a pioneer of the whole "water down software and call it user-frienfly'" thing.
This is part of what keeps Linux a niche for enthusiasts and professionals though. The average Windows/Mac user barely understands how to use their computer. Widespread adoption means meeting those people where they are. Whether that's a goal worth pursuing is kind of a different question.
Or, maybe yo will understand when you grow up that people are good at different things.
Garuntee there's some pretty easy things for me to do that you would get left behind trying to do, and not just on PC
Same for you. You know some things you'd blow me away doing.
Just because you don't know what I know , and vice versa, doesn't mean people are dumb.
Means they've learned different things.
- Nah, I get that we're all good at different things. But people should be good at doing basic research and troubleshooting.
  We use computers all the time. Many of us use cars all the time. And we know how to fuel them up, check and top-up oil, add wiper fluid, check coolant, etc. There's also the manual to refer to if we don't know.
  Same shit with PCs. But people aren't willing to put in the bare minimum effort to do shit, and companies take advantage of that to ruin it for everyone.

Yeah I love linux, but it's user experience , while light years ahead of what I used in the late nineties and early aughts, is still clunky compared to others.

That being said, honestly most of linux's issues are GUI related, when it comes to going mainstream. The capabilities and efficiency are far ahead of windows and mac os but most users don't care.

Directions, examples and mundane work should all be seamless for mainstream consumers.

A good rule of thumb is, " if a user has to look for it to fix it, or open a terminal window to install software, then it won't be accepted fully.

Mainstream users don't want to type commands in a prompt. Why does everyone think windows blew DOS out of the water in sales? It wasn't because DOS wasn't working. It was, hell early windows ( I started on 3.11 so that's my limit of knowledge ) still used DOS.

So bottom line. Start putting the non tech consumer first or we'll forever be stuck in this "almost mainstream" category forever.

Idk mainstream users should learn to learn and empower themselves with knowledge.
The enshitification of hardware and software by constantly catering to the dumbest of people is hurting everybody.
I don’t see them as mutually exclusive - can’t Linux be user friendly for the non-techie while also offering a techie lots of flexibility and command-line joy? 🤷‍♂️
- They can and should. But they don't. They really only cater to the techie, because that's who uses it
  Then they got pissed when their "marketing" efforts fall shorts.
  Stop acting like non Linux users are dumb. They aren't. they've used the time others spent learning other thing, while others spent their time on techie things . Their priorities were different. Or maybe their poor and don't care about that as they need a PC but have to work 80 hours to feed their family.
  But no. Instead of making life better through foss for those who need it, you're making Linux some unattainable nerd toy.
  We can tell ourselves we don't care. But we do. Or the thread wouldn't be here
This exactly.
I enjoy the level of control I have on my Linux machine but I spend about 40% of my time in CLI.
I recently had to troubleshoot a windows machine, and the lack of control was frustrating but every step for that problem was GUI-centric. Everyday people don’t want to remember commands so they can set up their browser and word processor. They want (to them) simple and straightforward.
To us it’s a low bar, and most of us are from the generations that dreamt of a predominantly tech-literate society, but that’s not reality. We have to meet them where they are, and if they want to learn beyond that then we welcome them in.
- Super glad you understand my point. it honestly is the one thing holding us back I believe
is still clunky compared to others.
Wut?
So bottom line. Start putting the non tech consumer first or we'll forever be stuck in this "almost mainstream" category forever.
I'm okay with that.
"Mainstream" users are getting stupider. Even Windows is to difficult for them. They want the Apple walled garden with a subscription plan for their devices and no permissions to do anything that a corporation doesn't want you to do.
Fuck. That.
- So. We just encourage ignorance and security threats so we.. can.. be .. better than them? I don't think that's the healthiest outlook ...

Which Linux? The installation process for most distributions these days is pretty simple.

i am evaluating endless os (basic install, not the kitchen sink version) right now. i have bunch of soon-to-be obsolete desktops and laptops i need to find something other than windows to load. i am very impressed so far. it's nearly everything i'm looking for for these systems and their future home users.

it's nearly as 'simple' as a chromebook but is based on debian, so it can do more than chromeos. but because of the ostree base, verified flatpak applications, and simplified desktop and ui, it's a lot harder for a typical home user to 'break' than windows.

the 'full' endless install with lots of extra programs and offline content might pick up a few fans, too. parts of my area still don't have faster-than-dialup internet available.

i had been set on peppermint for the lowest spec'd systems (things like c2d 4gb/hdd) and cinnamint for the others (mostly 2nd-6th gen, 4-8gb, some have sata ssd), but endless might just end up on everything unless someone specifically requests different.

My concern is we are solving a wrong problem from the beginning.

GNU/Linux is an OS designed by hackers for hackers(at least in my age). The target users should be admin, not end users like grandma. That's why Linux desktop is never mainstream despite our community put so much effort on the user experience (but the effort has not wasted)

Before you yell at me, on the other hand, android (shipped with Linux kernel) has a great success because it's dummy proof design. Even a 2 years old can mess around tablets by his/her own. We can invent million theories, argue and hate each other all days. But there is only one fact. The fact is that mainstream users enjoy the fruit of open source is brought by Android from tablets. Unfortunately, tablets' gui toolkit is dominated by big corps.

When do we start to put focus on gui toolkit for tablets? We did try, but far away than enough. When do we able to admit new generation use tablets way more than desktop? Seeing the open source communities keep heading the wrong direction make me sad.

The fact that Linux still sucks for regular users after all this time is infuriating. What the hell have people even been working on all this time??

It doesn't though. It's just different and takes time to learn. Like if a PlayStation only user switched to Xbox or a Mac user switching to windows. It's different. In my experience Mac isn't "user friendly" because it does shit different. I took some time to learn it. Now it is
Yeaaahh, but does it though?
I've put loads of regular users on Linux and on average they have less issues than they had with windows
That is ignoring the installation. Linux install is download iso, burn it on USB, boot computer with said USB, run the install program, go through the 5-6 pages which takes about 15 minutes, reboot and the machine is done.
Windows 11 install is downloading ISO, burn it on USB, boot computer with said USB and then the boot up immet fails with this vague error. Spend a good hour on Internet searches to find that it's some bios setting which is fine for Linux, but whatever. Make setting, reboot USB! Setup now crashes again on other gauge error. Spend another 4 hours on sraxhes only to find out that windows iso burning requires a special windows only burning program that will "fix" it and is totally not done on purpose to sabotage Linux users, but fine, were only 5 hours in and still have to start so boot up a VM in Linux, find that usb burner somewhere, download and install that, then download the iso again, burn it, dump it again in the machine and presto, er have an installer, yay!
Go through the pages, and more pages and more crap and install this sponsored content and watch ads and now you need an account at Microsoft and more pages and do you love me? Please let me know that you love me, more feedback because I'm Microsoft and I need feedback and now do you want these games that you hate, and you must install office you will love it even though you'd rather commit sepuku, and a fucking hour of clicking a thousand times later, windows is finally installed ..?
Seriously, if I say that installing Linux was ten times easier than windows, it would be the understatement of the year.
In it's general use, nobody will run into weird shit like they do on windows and to top it off, you got no issues with viruses, no ads nor spyware in the operating system itself, and shit just works.
Yeah, Linux has bugs, just like windows, but the experience is ten times better, I'll die happily and proud on that hill
- "shit just works" I'm sorry but you're fucking high if you think shit just works on linux. Every problem is a rabbit hole of 3 new problems with 3 more new problems.
  I am by no means saying windows is any good, or any better necessarily. But this "Linux works great and is easy to use" is a load of shit and I'm sick of hearing it.