World News @lemmy.world MyEdgyAlt @sh.itjust.works 2 days ago

IDF soldiers should refuse orders which may be war crimes, Israeli ex-security adviser tells BBC

www.bbc.com IDF soldiers should refuse orders which may be war crimes, Israeli ex-security adviser tells BBC

A former senior security official tells Fergal Keane that Israel might be committing war crimes in northern Gaza.

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Gee I don't know ... they call themselves the Chosen People and require everyone else to do that too or they levy accusations of antisemitism.

How can a Chosen Person ^TM do a war crime ? Unpossible.
- They are also indoctrinated during that service to see Palestinians as vermin.
They relish in committing war crimes, they don't see us as people
It's always "ex" and "former," never "current."
- Did you see what happened to the Israeli guy who exposed Israel's nuclear warheads?
  
  Spoiler: the Israelis hunted him down and murdered him in Europe. You don't say shit like this while you work for the IOF terrorists, or they'll fucking murder you
  
  Do you have a source for this?
- Because if they were current and said that they would become ex very quickly.
  
  Or "late"
Israelis concerned about morality should refuse to serve in the IDF at all and take the jail time instead.

For those who didn't, they obviously believe in what they're doing to some extent and I'm not convinced that the incentives are really there to do the right thing. What is the consequence for committing the war crime? It is non existent. Straight up. So if you risk punishment by refusing, why would you?

Again, if you have morals you should lay down your arms and fucking leave Gaza immediately. Refusing one order is pointless when there are war crimes committed every day.
- So if you risk punishment by refusing, why would you?
  
  Moral convictions? Jesus Christ, people...
- If all the people did that you would only have the most bloodthirsty lunatics
  
  That may be true, but bloodthirsty lunatics without the numbers to back them up lose much of their effectiveness.
  
  I think that was their point
Soooo all orders
Yeah, I'm sure a soldiers don't normally face reprisal for refusing to follow orders. /s

Maybe... don't issue orders that may be war crimes?
- The only ethical option is to refuse to go when they try to enlist you.
  
  Doesn't Israel have required military service?
- I believe it was Chris Browning who showed that German Wehrmacht soldiers, who refused to be in Einsatzgruppen didn't get punished for it.
- Yes, it's a very sticky wicket. In Israel's case you can just be a conscientious objector and either make up an excuse for non-service, or take the jail time. In places that don't even pose as Liberal democracies that's not an option, and you're best off trying to defect to someone else. If you can't manage that either, it's basically just time to survive while choosing kindness wherever you can, even if it means some loss and some risk. The soldier in The Pianist giving the guy cake comes to mind.
I was going to joke and say they'll have to just stay at home, but those homes are likely illegal settlements
- Wait till you learn that all of Israel is a settlement on stolen land
Might be. Just a hunch, nothing concrete to report
"might".
Weve been through that before haven't we?
And face being dragged before court for refusing to follow orders. The army is very well known for giving soldiers freedom to interpret orders.
- Also known as "courage".
- In civilized nations, obeying an unlawful order is, itself, unlawful.
  
  Which honestly might be one of the most underrated democratic safeguards, on top of just helping prevent atrocities towards other people.
  
  Not in the US military, and I'm sure others as well. What civilized nations are you referring to? I can only speak to the US, but enlisted soldiers here take a pledge to follow orders, while the officers are actually the ones to take a pledge to uphold the US constitution.
- You are not required to obey an unlawful order and in most militaries you are required not to. If you get court martialed it shouldn't be a problem since you were in the right and not the officer issuing the unlawful order.
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