Misandry isn't real
Misandry isn't real
You'd have to be willfully ignorant of context, history and systemic power dynamics to think misandry is a threat to men in the same way misogyny is a threat to... well, everyone.
If misandry isn't real then why do I hate men? Checkmate liberal
Yep, it's the same process as
complaining about "anti-white racism." It's an utter nothing-burger, pure reactionary thinking.It's literally the exact same shit, opressors complaining they can't opress in peace. And it's pervasive, we've already had one ban in the anti-misogyny thread because of this.
I respectfully disagree. Race and gender discrimination play out differently, they are different things. While there might be similarities, there is just a fundamental difference in how these forms of discrimination work.
For instance, most large cultural groups still in existence today have some element of patriarchy, this extends globally across racial and ethnic lines, in different ways but still patriarchical. If we take marriage for instance, in a traditional Westernised church wedding, the bride wears white to symbolise purity, the bride is handed off to the groom by her father, etc. I'm sure we can all see the patriarchical values on display here, where women are viewed as under the control of men.
Now if we look at another cultural practice with regards to marriage, and I'll be using a practice I'm familiar with in South Africa practiced by quite a few different cultural groups here, the practice of lobola. In this practice, the family of the groom, offers a gift to the family of the bride before the marriage. In the past this was usually cattle, but these days it's usually a monetary gift. Traditionally this practice is a very formal one with strict rules, negotiations and dignity and respect between the two prospective families. Though many view the practice as a way to unite the two families and not as a payment for the bride, and in modern times, even to fund the wedding or help the prospective bride and groom start their lives, it's not hard to see how this could be expoilted or viewed in a patriarchical way, viewing women as a possession to be bought and haggled over. Hell, my phone's autocorrect even suggested the word "buyer" instead of family at times.
Where I'm going with this is, is that many will be able to see the influence of patriarchy in someone else's culture, while being blind to the patriarchy in their own culture, which leads to gender and racial discrimination manifesting themselves in different ways. If we go back to my example, many white people in South Africa or white foreigners, even people who consider themselves to be socially progressive and feminist, would be the first to call out the patriarchical practices of black South Africans, while engaging in their own culture's patriarchical practices with no self awareness. For example, I remember reading a story about a white American woman who wanted to marry a Xhosa man, who was appalled by the their traditional practices in this regard, and didn't want to wear their traditional dress or participate in a Xhosa wedding. What she wanted instead? A traditional Western marriage where she wore a white dress with her father walking her down the aisle, with bridesmaids and all. I'm sure we can all see the irony here.
In general, this is why I disagree with the idea that discrimination along the lines of race, gender, and sexual orientation are the same. I often hear or read about egalitarian liberals in the West saying "how can black people be homophobic/transphobic, they have the experience of being discriminated against for being a minority, how can they do the same thing to another group of people", which is just a shortsighted and narrow way of looking at it, and also shows how racial discrimination is not the same as discrimination along the lines of sexual orientation. The "oppressor/oppressed" dynamic is just different. People across different cultures are probably homophobic for very similar reasons, the human condition, with all its flaws and ugliness included, is universal to a certain extent after all. Just because one group has experienced discrimination in the past, that does not mean that people who are a part of that cultural group or identity immune from discriminating against others in future. One can also simultaneously be a victim of one form of discrimination while engaging in discrimination against another group of people. One example that instantly comes to mind today would be LGBT people supporting Israel's genocide of the Palestinian people.
99% of people quit trying just before they can achieve real real misandry. Keep your head in thr game and we can get there someday
Wtf is up with the random ass outbreak of incelivitis?
Are the men on this site ok? Do I need to post some Stavros Halkias clips?
The easiest way to weed out any form of reactionary sentiment is to call out that kind of sentiment and then bring the hammer down. We've seen this in earlier purges like the pronoun struggles, you can observe the same thing every time in any space where somebody brings up a topic reactionaries find "controversial". People with the views that are called out will feel offended and double down, and it's always in really obvious, blatantly mask off ways. When i've seen misogyny on this site before, it was usually a lot more vague and between the lines, now we have posters outright saying chud shit like
examples from the mod log
"misandrist drivel" or "women who are free to date who they want are an existential threat to me" or "nonbinary people can't be lesbians".
The incelivitis was always there, the "outbreak" came from people calling it out, which causes them to out themselves.
Are the men on this site ok?
No
Do I need to post some Stavros Halkias clips?
Probably
Show me the Stav
The men on this site were never okay, tbh. We’ve been complaining about the misogyny problem on the trans mega for months, and I’m sure it was a problem before I came here too.
I tend to argue that most of the issues of our time come down to supremacism being the biggest threat. Misogyny and patriarchy are features of male-supremacy, a movement that has dominated for centuries.
Hating men is a thing and honestly those women tend to have reasonable reasons for it but there is no real female-supremacy movement. Their participation is only in breaking male-supremacy.
Almost every issue of our time can be broken down into factions of supremacists vs those who oppose supremacism. Gender is a male-supremacist issue, lgbt is a hetero-supremacist cis-supremacist issue that ties into the male-supremacist issue.
To understand whether or not something should be entertained by the left you should simply analyse it under this framework. The term misandry is used exclusively by the male-supremacists has a means of painting part of their opposition as "too extreme". Which is rich when they are male-supremacists and these women they point the misandry finger at are just fighting against that.
Maybe you can find a person or two who will say
"I believe in female-supremacy" but there is NO movement for it, no organisation for it, and it will never ever happen.Now, look at our current global positions on imperialism. We understand that the biggest issue is imperialism which is again a supremacist issue (west/white). Under this we understand that there are two positions, the pro-supremacist side and the opposition to supremacy. We come down on the side of the opposition, 100% of the time, even when they're imperfect, and we call it "critical support". I argue that these are the same things, and that the position anyone should take with regards to it should be the same. The people the supremacists call misandrists are the assad and iran of gender-supremacy issues and our position on them should be identical to our position on imperialism. The supremacists scream about them because they recognise a potential group to peel away from their opposition, which disunites their opponent, which weakens their opponent.
Misandry is generally just a word used to browbeat the feminist movement into being less radical and thus less effective as an opposition to male-supremacy. But if anyone does exist that is functionally as bad as the male-supremacists claim that misandrists are then the correct position is still critical-support in the framework of anti-patriarchy, matching the framework of critical support for problematic sections of anti-imperialism used as movement-splitting.
Anyway most people I see getting called misandrists don't actually hate men, they hate male-supremacy and this is painted by the supremacists as hating men. If your position is opposition to misandry then this immediately backfoots you by forcing you to argue about how someone is not a misandrist. If your position is critical-support to them anyway then this just becomes "I don't care because the primary issue is defeating male-supremacy" and is barely a speedbump.
EDIT: Also if you bring critical-support into other movements you normalise it and unify strategy. It becomes very easy for people from one movement against supremacy to join other movements against supremacy because it all maps 1 to 1. We should be doing the same thing, in every movement. You want feminists to come over to anti-imperialism? Well if they're using all the same strategies and analysis we use in anti-imperialism then when you explain anti-imperialism to them it all becomes "aha that makes sense!" much more quickly.
Every man I've seen call feminism a "man-hating movement" always ends up being one of the most vile, objectifying, discriminatory, and, well, hateable pieces of shit imaginable. If they think feminism is "man-hating," then perhaps instead of complaining about "misandry," they should be less hateable.
The sheer number of men who seemingly lack the baseline of just the mere ability to view women as people is disgusting. "Misandry" is a response to this disgusting behavior, obviously.
Sometimes, you do get TERFs and shitstain feminists who don't understand theory and will be bioessentialist as a way to turn "man-hating" into transphobia, but these people misunderstand the dialectic just as much as people who complain about misandry do.
Patriarchy is the problem in all cases, essentialism is a tool of its abuses, and trying to use essentialism as a counter to it, like TERFs do, is just adding fuel to the fire, as the problem is rooted in the system and not essentialism.
It reminds me of how I cringe when I see POC promote racial essentialism as a way to assert that white people are inherently inferior. As much as I love complaining about cracKKKers systemically, using essentialism to fight the power structures that use essentialism to oppress in the first place will only generate more oppression.
Essentialism delenda est!
Permanently Deleted
What the hell did I miss now? Why would this even be something to debate? Misandry has always been reactionary bullshit.
Just doing my duty of catching any straggling misogynists hanging around the site. I like to see them rage.
Keep up the good work Comrade Dirt_Owl
Kind of embarrassing that it needed to be done.
Permanently Deleted
Thank you for your service, comrade @Dirt_Owl@hexbear.net
The gender market has been real bearish lately, alot of local incels selling their mgtow stocks
Me after googling mgtow because I didn't know it was a thing:
The fucking "man-o-sphere" is real, isn't it?
i’m going to just repost what i said on the last thread debunking misandry lol.
I remember when this topic was brought up a few months ago and some “enlightened centrist” men kept trying to debatebro the position that misandry technically exists because some women do not like men (because of their experiences with misogyny), forgetting that misogyny is waaaaaaay more than that lmao. Imagine if misogyny was just “sometimes a man does not like me” instead of a whole system of continual oppression and abuse.
“Misandry” always ends up actually being either misdiagnosed classism, self-inflicted wounds from the patriarchy, or schadenfreude over seeing celebrities fall because they’re celebrities.
Speaking of such things, everyone talks like that’s some entirely new phenomenon in Hollywood but overlooks that Fatty Arbuckle’s career got canned a century ago over false sexual assaults allegations. People being gossipy over the famous is not an attack on men as a whole.
Men are arguably being discriminated against in the childcare sector, that's basically it. If you're a man and want to work at a daycare or as an elementary school teacher, you might have a disadvantage because of your gender and experience prejudice. In that sense, structural misandry technically does exist. I guess you could make a case for women being more likely to win custody in divorce court also being structural misandry?
But that's not what people who complain about misandry tend to talk about lmao
Edit: Also I agree, even putting misandry and misogyny in the same category is laughable. The existence of the former is a technicality and calling it a "structural issue" would be silly.
that "misandry" is just patriarchy anyway
I kinda disagree. If you look at other roles that women get shoehorned into (housekeepers, cooks, nurses) you won't find the same dynamics there.
Patriarchy dictates that women are only capable of staying at home, cooking and cleaning, but even within those tasks it still considers men to be just as if not more qualified. Restaurants don't prefer female cooks over male ones and janitorial services don't prefer women either.
Childcare is (afaik) the only sector where women are genuinely believed to be more qualified and capable than men.
Probably false. I am a man in a tradionally female sector of work and people instinctively treat me better. I find it embarassing mostly.
Data shows men tend to be overvalued in fields like thisChildcare workers are literally paid less than minimum wage in my country.
And it always cracks me up when men complain about not being chosen as much for jobs in elementary and high schools.
It's like, okay, first of all I see plenty of male teachers around, and second of all even if that is true, men are more likely to get a job as a University teacher or in higher education than women, you know, the only teaching jobs where you are paid more than minimum wage.
Childcare workers are literally paid less than minimum wage in my country.
Oh yeah, absolutely. If you zoom out even a tiny bit, men still come out ahead.
you know, the only teaching jobs where you are paid more than minimum wage.
Oddly in the US, its the other way around. Colleges have moved towards hiring "adjunct faculty" to be teachers, often paying around minimum wage. While lower schools (at least around here), typically pay more than double minimum wage, often more than triple (even assuming teachers work 52 weeks a year without any breaks/vacations). Researchers (if they can keep a constant flow of grants) and coaches get paid well in universities, but that's not for teaching.
But yeah... high schools seem to have no problem with male teachers. Elementary, idk. Might just be men don't seek those positions because of the assumption they won't be allowed?
It's like, okay, first of all I see plenty of male teachers around
My primary school didn't have a single male teacher, and my secondary school had I think three out of fifty or so, and it's not an isolated experience in the UK (the secondary school was a little unusual. )
Apparently, 76% of teachers in the UK are women, and 25% of schools have no male teachers at all.
As a chronic pedant who avoids speaking in absolutes to the point I consider it a character flaw this makes sense to me. No issue with accurately emphasizing how it's on a massively lower scale of course
if i encounter someone who uses the word misandry it means i have encountered a redditor so i know i can turn off my brain and stop listening to them
what, why should we ignore hate against Andy? Oh, misandry... sorry.
...but with your hard work, it could be.
A lot of men are misdirected to "misandry" partly because the media use of patriarchy does not address the pressures that men face in this system. Bell hooks really covers it better than I can, but a lot of men in the west have been raised to be big strong emotionless mean men, and to not conform to that mold can mean being lower on the ladder or social ostracizing in some of the nastier social/work circles. It is poisonous for them - they get more money and more treats in exchange for their dehumanized and emotionally stunted existence. Even beyond just acknowledging that its fucked up to exploit people, men have justified grievances against patriarchy that outweigh the material benefits they garner. If that understanding was better attached to the word "patriarchy" I think it would filter out the redeemable people from the "misandry" believer bucket.
How can misandry be real when men aren't real? They're just a lie made up by the industry to sell us bigger pants.
You're challenging Jaden Smith a lot with this one!
:obi-wan: Now there's a name I haven't heard in a long time
Some men really need to learn how to self-reflect because I always wondered how misogynistic jackasses never ask to themselves how they would feel if the positions were switched (ie. if they were women and receive the same type of disgusting comments that the misogynists themselves make). I just woke up and having my coffee so my comment may not be clear but it's just something I always wondered about these incels/misogynists/etc.
empathy is generally lacking in these sorts of people.
They also don't understand power dynamics and the genuine physical danger that women face. They might think that their disgusting comments are not a big deal because a girl just awkwardly laughs or doesn't make a big deal about it, when in reality the girl is disgusted and horrified but fears the consequences of standing up for herself.
I mostly hangout around new so I don't ever see the incel shit that gets dredged up in active posts. Most accusations I've seen of "misandry" online are just usually a white cishet man gets checked by someone of the opposite sex and they lash out for being corrected. I've yet to see anything really confirming what they're hinting at, men being discriminated against. A lot of it feels like the same shit racists pull with black people saying they're racist against whites for calling them a cracker.
Most of the violence against men is perpetrated by other men. If misandry was real, it would be something men do to other men
I haven't seen people use the word "misandry" since my days on ShitRedditSays a decade ago, is it coming back?
If so can we bring back calling them shitlords?
it never left on
unfortunately, and if anything has become way more prevalent now that the site is constantly being astroturfed by MRA concern trolls posting about the "male loneliness crisis" and how women are somehow responsible for it. that kinda shit gets to the front page pretty regularly and all the accounts that post it are extremely sus/outright botsPermanently Deleted
mods please pin this forever thx
I can't blame some men for believing in misandry. The social sciences are often neglected and it's easy to misdiagnose a situation if you have a shitty boss and not the vocabulary and knowledge to pull up bell hooks to point out yet even more products of the patriarchy.
capitalising bell hooksIs that not capitalized? Edit: well I'll be damned. I guess that's what I get for having all her stuff fed to me secondhand.
It's about as real as racism against whites or heterophobia
Honest question how do people feel about the concept of "military aged male" and its application
That is not misandry and it doesn't even matter because the imperialist powers that use it to justify killing civilians are just as comfortable vaporizing women and girls.
(CW: Violence, gore) It's important to note that a lot of who they classify as a "military-aged male combatant" is done after-the-fact, and it's often difficult or impossible to tell the sex/gender of loose bodyparts in a field.
More useful to think of it as patriarchy x white supremacy ig
A patriarchal society being both misogynist (women can't fight) and classist (send the poors to be cannon fodder)
Reminder that women have fought in every war and their contributions always go largely ignored. British women who fought in WW2 against the Nazis found that when they wear their medals in veteran parades, they are often subject to idiots screaming at them that they're "wearing their fathers medals on the wrong side" the idea that the medals are their own doesn't even compute.
It should be real though
Misandry is real in the same sense that the "paint all mountain chickadees neon green" political movement is real. You could probably find someone who believes in painting small birds, but there is no institutional backing nor widespread support for it. Someone complaining about misandry has comparable validity to one complaining about those coming with paint buckets for their birds.
Really makes you think!
Misandry and cis-phobia exists specifically within the context of hexbear though. I know because you never upbear my posts.
90 comments. Oh no. Edit: Nevermind, this has actually been mostly good discussion and jokes and not a bug-light for incels like I feared.
It not being a threat of the same proportions does not make it not existing.
Getting struck by lighting is a proportionally less threat compared to getting hit by a car, but that does not make it not a real threat.
read some of the educational posts here. don't remain ignorant.
Fair.
Just because they aren't equal doesn't mean one doesn't exist.
It’s real …. just stupid and irrelevant
