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chapotraphouse @hexbear.net

Krause [he/him] @lemmygrad.ml

2y ago

How some of the post-federation Ukraine threads feel like

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263 comments

“No-n-no, it’s different this time because—because—because—“
- “In culture war crap, we tend to align! Yeah it’s for different reasons! I’m only for or against something because the people I hate decided it’s a new front!”
  I swear they just do Ukraine support out of a culture war thing because 2016 elections, Russia and Trump.
  
  Abandoning the idea that Russia buying a relatively miniscule amount of ads on social media/running bot farms swayed the 2016 election would mean that liberals would have to confront the idea that Trump won in 2016 b/c the country is actually more racist than they thought it was.
  
  They'd have to blame the electoral college more than anything. Clinton received 3 million more votes and still lost. Liberals are servants to rules and procedures even to their own detriment.
  
  That, and the anti-Democratic structure of presidential elections is a much more serious problem than they thought.
  
  That's the kicker here. If Trump was anti-Russia and pro-Ukraine, the libs would be falling over themselves to denounce this evil war and supporting an authoritarian regime.
  
  Yeah. They are defined by whatever the republicans want.
  
  Boo other team, go my team! Yay politics! I vooted!
- ... because this time the US is backing Ukraine against the aggressor, whereas in 2004 it was the aggressor?
  
  You mean when Russia first invaded Ukraine?
  
  Why did Clinton give so much money to Yeltsin in the 1990s? How were the modern nation states of Ukraine and Russia created, and how does their creation relate to amerikkka’s relentless focus on the destruction of the USSR?
  
  “It’s different this time, we have to meddle with [foreign country], we have to fund highly reactionary forces there since they’re mysteriously the only ones who will work with us, this couldn’t possibly bite us in the ass in the future, just one more rightwing coup/proxy war bro I swear, just one more rightwing coup/proxy war, it’s the other side disrespecting human rights and democracy, it’s the other side doing imperialism and colonialism I swear bro, please, they’re just showing their agency bro—“
  
  Is that what CIA funded color revolutions are called these days?
  
  you mean when crimeans overwhelmingly voted to become part of Russia in a ~~democratic referendum~~ rigged fake news sham election
  
  so when Victoria Nuland picked Ukraine's new government after instigating a coup and they killed ~16,000 ~~civilians~~ people in Donbas between 2014 and 2022 those were friendly, non-aggressive artillery shells?
  
  ~16,000 civilians in Donbas between 2014 and 2022
  where is this number from? the 10k+ numbers i've seen for the war all include military dead as well
  
  I think it was in the OSCE special monitoring mission reports, I'll update if I can find
  EDIT: well, might be vegan egg substitute on my face on this one. the OSCE numbers I can find so far for a 3 year period (2017-2020) are in line but only if it inlcudes all casualties not just civilians
  
  you are probably right. I've crossed it out and will adjust my posting
  
  thank you for looking into it
  
  So you're saying that Russia didn't invade Ukraine first, before the separatist-controlled areas were shelled?
  
  Is there any specific proof of the part where Russia entered after Ukraine bombed??
  I personally don't see it as necessary, and think an analysis of which forces/interests were pushing towards the war is more important than "who fired the first bullet" anyways. That's always seemed like a dumb way of arguing anyways, because of how often it's actually "he punched me first (after I held this knife right next to his throat for years)." But libs do all the time so it'd be good to be able to disprove not only on my terms but theirs
  
  2014 is before 2022 hope that helps
  
  Oh, so you're saying that Russia illegally annexing Crimea in 2014 wasn't an invasion of Ukraine?
  
  You can always tell who the most ignorant libs are when they bring up Crimea lmao
  Crimea is not Ukrainian, it has always been a distinct cultural ethnic region and 97% of Crimeans voting for independence from Kiev should give you pause before you breathlessly insist they should remain beholden to a bunch of nazi banderites
  
  "Acktually sweaty, don't you know that if a vote has a higher than 80% yes vote, it's automatically a sham? Every vote needs to be really close or else it doesn't count and isn't real democracy. Consensus isn't democratic!"
  
  "Except for the Falklands, since it still counts when we do it"
  
  Crimeans wanting independence means they wanted to become part of the Russian empire again?
  
  the Russian federation is a reactionary bourgeois state that is a hollowed out shell of its former USSR self, but I dislike the hyperbole that it is "the Russian Empire". Russia Today is neither the Russian empire, nor the Soviet Union. If anything it is closer politically to what it would have been if the February revolution had continued and the October revolution never happened: A bourgeois state.
  
  a russian majority region would rather not be ethnically cleansed
  they join russia
  those people are pro russian empire traitors
  
  Yes you dumb fuck, as a means of protection from the nazi captured Ukrainian army who would've otherwise bulldozed the small region
  
  making it pretty obvious here that you have no idea who Victoria Nuland is and only started paying attention to any of this stuff in 2022
  
  Oh, I've been following the whole thing for years and know who she is.
  I just don't think that her supporting pro-democratic and anti-corruption reform in Ukraine equates to it being okay for Russia to annex part of a neighbouring country.
  
  Democracy is when you replace an elected leader with a pro-western one.
  
  Liberal Democracy is all about giving Americans the right to vote in your countries elections.
  
  pro-democratic
  democracy is when you pick the new officials yourself on a phone call with Geoffrey Pyatt
  
  Pro-democracy is when you ban left opposition but not fascists. Anti-corruption is when you have offshore accounts connected to the oligarch who funded said fascists that you used to work for on his TV program
  
  What are you referencing with the last part?
  
  The Pandora Papers revealed that Zelensky and his inner circle had offshore accounts connected to Kolomoisky. Kolomoisky is an oligarch that owned the TV station Zelensky worked for prior. He also funded nazi militias that couped the government in 2014
  
  supporting pro-democratic and anti-corruption reform in Ukraine
  [laughs in Operation Aerodynamic]
  
  Oh wow, really? A cold-war era campaign? You're really pushing Putin's talking points here.
  
  history started in 2022
  
  Lmao I refuse to believe you've ever heard or read about Vladmir Putin discussing that
  
  democracy is when you elect zelensky on a platform of peace with russia but he lets the Right Sector and Azov continue to try the ethnic cleansing of eastern ukraine
  
  Can you find Ukraine on a blank political map?
  
  I just don't think that her supporting pro-democratic and anti-corruption reform
  Is this a joke? Pro democracy? Anti corruption? When has the US ever stood for that outside of propaganda purposes?
  
  Assuming that it was even legitimate to begin with, which is a big if, a popular vote doesn't automatically legitimize relinquishing territory to a foreign nation.
  
  Assuming that it was even legitimate to begin with
  "Democracy is when the stupid foreigners vote how I think they should, otherwise it's not legitimate"
  doesn't automatically legitimize relinquishing territory to a foreign nation.
  If the people vote overwhelmingly to leave Ukraine, then that shows that Crimea isn't Ukraine's to relinquish or not. Liberals and abandoning democracy as soon as it becomes a rhetorical inconvenience for them, name a more iconic duo.
  
  TFW when being pro-Russia with regards to the Ukraine conflict is also being imperialist 🤡
  
  recognizing the geopolitical reality of the situation is not being pro-Russia 🤡
  
  a "popular vote" doesn't automatically legitimize relinquishing territory to a foreign nation.
  Good you acknowledge that even the westoid cope for the Euromaidan coup is bullshit.
  
  If your aim is to prevent war, what is your solution for when the vast majority of people in one country want to join another, and vote accordingly?
  
  A complicated situation certainly, but whatever the answer is, it is not "collude with a neighbouring foreign nation, allow them to invade, and provoke a military conflict."
  
  So you don't have an answer, but "a vote followed by annexation" is unacceptable for some reason? Why reject a peaceful solution that results in people having the government they want to live under?
  
  Apparently it's "collude with local fascists and US MIC and allow them to provoke a military conflict and wage a proxy war with Russia"
  Pretty extreme answer for a situation you consider to be "complicated"
  
  territorial integrity takes precedence over popular will
  we agree taiwan isn't a country then
  
  sounds like someone hasn't asked my friends in the Taiwanese Liberation Subreddit what their opinions are!
  
  Hence why I had to shell civilians
  
  Oh, so you're saying the Ukrainian government wasn't couped by nazis in 2014?
  
  I know borders are sacred and inviolable, but Ukraine and Russia were part of the same country until fairly recently. It's not weird that large populations of people would rather not be living under the rule of Ukrainian nationalists and decided to make some adjustments.
  
  Russia is the aggressor in this war, and it's bad that they invaded.
  Russia invaded Ukraine in response to continued US policy of bringing countries near Russia's borders into NATO, a military treaty organization that Russia had tried to join but was barred from. Not acting would mean that Russia becomes increasingly encircled by military bases of a hostile superpower.
  The Ukrainians are the victims in a proxy war between two much larger powers. For the average Ukrainian, sooner the war is over, the better. Somehow repelling the invasion would be ideal, but every day of fighting destroys lives and homes.
  US policy in response to the invasion is to send military hardware to Ukraine, enriching its arms manufacturers and prolonging the conflict. They make the Ukrainian government pay for this by forcing the privatization of their government assets at bargain prices (note how this website exists and is fully translated to English). The actual fighting is still done by Ukrainians, who die for this.
  
  New here. I was reading all the snarky strawman comments here and thinking "what the fuck are these people on?". Then I read your comment, which is clearly and concisely written, and makes good points. I hadn't thought of it that way and it makes a lot of sense. Not saying my view is totally flipped around, but that's some food for thought and I'll be snacking down.
  Now will the rest of you calm down about owning libs and speak nicely to each other?
  
  Hah, thanks.
  When the war started, there were a lot of posts on here talking about the war in more nuance, and essays about Revolutionary Defeatism, Lenin's take on this from World War 1.
  But after over a year of arguing with blood-thirsty neoliberals who want to fight to the last Ukrainian, people are more tired and just want to yell.
  
  Some additional food for thought (hopefully you aren't full
  ):
  November 2013: Duly-elected Ukranian president Viktor Yanukovych declines to sign the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement, sparking significant protests.
  Dec 2013: John McCain tells Ukraine protesters: "We are here to support your just cause"
  Feb 2014: Yanukovych agrees to early elections and a withdrawal of police from the capitol; the opposition agreed to surrender arms and cease violence. None of this was implemented and Yanukovych flees the country.
  Mar 2014: In the midst of this turmoil, 97% of Crimean voters (83% turnout) vote to join the Russian Federation (staying with Ukraine was the other option on thr ballot). Crimea declares independence and is annexed by Russia shortly after. Despite the significant protests elsewhere in Ukraine, this is a peaceful process.
  Sep 2014: West must arm Ukraine to fight "invasion": McCain
  2014-15: Ukraine and Russia sign the Minsk agreements meant to stop the fighting between Ukraine and two other Russian-majority areas that want to leave Ukraine. These do not stop the fighting.
  Feb 2015: Ukrainian neo-Nazi paramilitaries declare any agreement with “pro-Russia terrorists” was “unconstitutional” and that his unit “reserves the right to continue active military operations” -- essentially nullifying the Minsk agreements.
  Feb 2019: Before most Western media was interested in Ukraine, the reporting that was done described "neo-Nazi pogroms against the Roma, rampant attacks on feminists and LGBT groups, book bans, and state-sponsored glorification of Nazi collaborators."
  Dec 2022: In an interview published in Germany's Zeit magazine on Wednesday, former German chancellor Angela Merkel said that the Minsk agreements had been an attempt to "give Ukraine time" to build up its defences.
  Given America's long history of sponsoring coups around the globe, what are the chances the 2014 ouster of Yanukovych was organic? Had a prominent Russian politician visited DC on January 6th, 2021, and fired up the crowd against the government, what would your reaction have been? When you have neo-Nazis undermining the Minsk agreements from the start and Angela Merkel admitting they were not agreed to in good faith, what does that say about Russia's diplomatic options? Is it possible that some parts of Ukraine really do want to leave?
  
  I'd suggest checking the pinned threads in the news megathread. They go in to some detail on the Ukraine situation.
  
  Not acting would mean that Russia becomes increasingly encircled by military bases of a hostile superpower.
  It's a semantic point, but I think it's a stretch to call Russia the aggressor. Especially so if you remember the intensified bombings of civilian areas in eastern Ukraine, which really appeared like an attempt to provoke a Russian intervention.
  
  It’s an addendum to appease the libs by earning brownie points, and it never works
  
  After bombing a dozen countries across the oceans into the dirt for decades, constantly opening more and more military bases closer and closer to Russian, stationing and pointing more and more nukes closer to Russia, and arming fascists in a country bordering Russia is being the aggressor
  This is so similar to arming the Mujahedeen against the USSR, but Europe version
  
  Ты придурок.
  
  @TranslatorBot@lemmygrad.ml English
  
  You're an asshole.
  This text was translated using DeepL.
  
  Oh fuuuuck this is a useful bot!! Lemmygrad never fails to impress
  
  Amber.
  
  и вы являетесь сторонником российского империализма
  
  Gottem
  I'm in Broken Russian Gang and I don't need fucking Google
  
  Ня я кошечка♪
  
  @TranslatorBot@lemmygrad.ml English
  
  :
  
  This text was translated using DeepL.

263 comments