Dragon Rider banned from a bunch of communities
Dragon Rider banned from a bunch of communities
Edit: Image description for Brits:
Dragon Rider (drag) being banned from the following communities for sharing DMs:
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205 comments
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Ironic considering how much flack blahaj got for defending that user.
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I think Blåhaj handled this person well over all. Even if Drag wad just 100% troll, drag wasn't being fed in Blåhaj and had to go elsewhere. But also there was always the chance that drag is just someone on a journey or with things to sort out. Some people have completely given up on being any gender and treat it like a joke in an almost nihilistic way. But clearly there's a line between that and an actual troll.
Either way, I wouldn't say that it's standard heterosexual cisgender behaviour to go as far as Drag did just for the lulz. So maybe one of these days, Drag will have an awakening and remember how no one in the community either fed drag or shunned drag when drag was confused and behaving badly.
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DragonRider's pronouns are "Drag" not "they", just because someone is a dick doesn't mean you don't respect pronouns. Gender isn't a reward for good behavior.
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drag has stated that drag accepts they/them as well.
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You're right. I honestly wasn't even thinking. Going to edit my comment now.
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If Drag was trolling, the troll was exposing how shallow non-binary acceptance is for your average "progressive."
"Not feeding the troll" in that case is treating their request with a minimal level of respect, and that was simply too much inconvenience for 90% of Lemmy.world and a very potent reminder of why trans and enby folks need their own spaces.
Including some people in this thread with an axe to grind and no self awareness to stop it.
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But also there was always the chance that they’re just someone on a journey or with things to sort out.
I can agree with this, but the part that's missing is that sometimes what someone needs to hear on their journey is "My person you are OUT OF YOUR MIND right now, please come back to your fucking senses and knock this shit off because we care about you."
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- sorry wrong comment -
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I personally don’t think they were a troll but I am also not sure I agree with banning people for not remembering or wanting to use their unusual pronouns.
But I am not well-educated on the topic of neopronouns so if someone feels like educating me or suggesting some readings I am open to it.
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No one was banned for not rembering drags pronouns or for accidentally getting them wrong.
People were banned for dismissing the validity of neopronouns or for deliberately and repeatedly getting pronouns wrong.
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I gotta add in some support to this.
I specifically said that using individual pronouns was more trouble than it's worth to me, and was not banned.
I even questioned the role of neopronouns, what impact they have, and expressed my opinions that disagree with some aspects of it (which changed, btw), and was not banned.
And, I specifically rarely used their (drag's) neopronouns during any interactions on the instance and was never banned.
Considering I'm a known asshole, and I'm confident that some of my comments got reported because people said they would/did, I never got banned from the instance, and afaik not from any communities, though I'd have to check the mod log to be certain of that part.
Regardless of whether or not anyone agrees with the policies regarding neopronouns, the admins have a pretty damn good track record of enforcing them evenly. Yeah, that's partly because they didn't ban me, but if my pissy, contrarian ass didn't get banned, it certainly points to them paying attention to nuance in their decisions.
Also, as a tangent to all of that, I know trans people irl that depend on blahaj lemmy as their place of support and community. If making a place where people can have that did mean being heavy handed, even if it meant I got banned, I'm okay with that. We need a place like that. Now more than ever.
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Was it dismissing or just not understanding? To be honest my recollection is a bit fuzzy.
I’m a little afraid to be having this conversation lest I be accused of prejudice against trans or nonbinary folks, a prejudice I try my best to fight against. But I don’t even understand the connection there since we already have well-established systems of pronouns for such people.
Personally, I truly can’t fathom why neopronouns are necessary and while I don’t want to disrespect anyone, they are so uncomfortable to use that it just makes me not want to address someone who uses them… especially when they are implicitly linked to having sex with non-human mythological creatures.
But maybe I am just ignorant. Drag was my first introduction to this concept. I’d like to learn more about this.
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Willing to have a casual explanation of it? An in depth one isn't on topic for this community. And yes, this is the condensed version, I could write a small pamphlet on this.
If so, read on. If not, throw me a DM and I'll try and give a more detailed version of my take after having changed my mind on the subject as a whole.
Neopronouns are not truly necessary. There's other ways to achieve the same goal
However, respecting them is, and it's important to recognize that the concept behind them is an important one.
The kind of neopronoun drag used aren't the only kind of neopronoun. I can't recall the name for that type, but it is an individualized version that has a different kind of merit.
The core of neopronouns is redefining gender and language. It's reframing how we think about and deal with agender, gender fluid, non binary, and other labels that represent people for whom the traditional masc/fem/neutral pronouns don't really fit. Now, yes, the singular neutral they/them does partially achieve that. But it isn't necessarily perfect because it's the same as just saying "other".
Standard neopronouns like xe/xem/xyr attempt to rectify that, in part, by providing a general use new (neo means new) words that are inherently without gender, and are also internally consistent (hence why xyr replaces the plural they/them rather than leaving that in place).
What dragon rider's pronouns do (and here I'll switch to just calling the person drag because arthritis) is a furtherance of that basic idea. The concept of individual, single word pronouns takes the concept of reframing gender in language to its logical extreme.
Now, here we have to address the elephant in the room. Otherkin. Otherkin are the folks you think about when you see a lot of individual pronouns. They also want their pronouns to be different from the norm, though they don't all want individual ones. They do tend to want pronouns that reflect their belief that they are different by being kin to their other. That's a simplification, but that's a tangent on a tangent already
Drag, afaik, isn't otherkin.
The connection to drag is that the individualized pronouns look similar, and it's where most people draw the line. Now, I have my opinion about that side of things, but for this purpose let's set the assumption that their belief is valid.
That's where we get back to drag. Drag, in choosing their user name, set up a fight from the beginning. I don't know if it was intentional or not, but choosing dragon (rider), and dragon fucker as user names, it was inevitable.
But drag is not actually their user name, nor what you would call a name at all. It isn't directly linked to them wanting to fuck dragons, which aren't real. It's a knock on effect.
Pretend, instead, that their user name is southsamurai, and they wanted the individual pronoun "sam". Still some confusion, obviously, but it isn't a fight from the beginning.
So, if my pronouns are sam/sam, I'm requesting an individual pronoun. I'm saying, up front, that by requesting that, that I have a sense of myself that doesn't work with standard gendered pronouns, nor with the commonly used neopronouns. I'm saying, please interact with me as an individual, not as a generic person.
That's why it matters. Now, I'm not saying anyone has to agree to use them. I've had many a discussion about that, and not just with drag. It's a big ask. It's asking everyone you meet to upend their brain and restructure their language pathways entirely, so that they can fluidly switch between known individual pronouns, and generic ones, without making errors.
But, even if you aren't willing or able to do that, I have come to agree that the point of individualized pronouns is important, and that standard neopronouns need to be adapted to, because language does matter. Our thinking is shaped by those language pathways. Language is how we exchange ideas, and (except for people that don't think in words at all) it's how we process our thoughts.
There are languages with no gendered pronouns, and some with long lists of them because there's more than two recognized genders, or because the pronoun used is grammar based regarding when and where it's used.
So, in English, our entire mind is influenced by having only three standard options: masculine, feminine, and neutral. It's inflexible because of that. And, you can see evidence of that via the rejection of the singular they/them, despite it having been a part of the language for much longer than trans issues have been in the public awareness.
Again, you might disagree about that. That's fine, I'm not trying to convince you, just trying to explain why I changed my mind from "that's silly" regarding all neopronouns, to having the opinion that they matter.
I now think that they matter because it's an effective way to shake up the way we think about gender and language. I think that's important because we all suffer limitations based on the limited English pronoun structures. In order to improve that, a shakeup is needed.
Drag is the reason I changed my opinion, and that's despite still having objections to individual pronouns as being more trouble than they're worth at this point in time. That's also despite my impression and opinion on the otherkin side of things being a hindrance to everyone else.
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I disagree with calling individualized pronouns pronouns, mostly because the whole idea of pronouns, like you said, is to replace a noun with a generic reference. As you also said, words shape our thoughts, but they also have meaning. All that said, I can't think of a better way to reject the idea of pronouns without implicitly rejecting the person doing so, which I also don't believe is acceptable. I'd be happier if a better way was found, but making me happy isn't the goal of communication in general.
I've been watching this drama for a while and keeping my opinions to myself since I'm largely unaffected by this discussion, but your comments helped crystallize my opinions on this and come to a reasonable state. I still don't like the idea of individualized pronouns, but I can't see an option that both ignores them and still respects their users right to how they identify themselves (and I can't see a way to write that sentence without at least ignoring the whole subject). So thank you for that insight.
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I like your explanation and also would say that Drag did a great job of forcing me to consider this section of grammar. I very much dislike "individual pronouns", similar to the other commenter, but specifically because they cause unnecessary frustration and discord in my already discordant neurodivergent brain (the point of pronouns is that there are ideas and contexts that absolutely require generic forms of nouns - breaking that section of language is very frustrating, especially as one who tries to show everyone the respect that any person deserves). However, like the other commenter, I do not see any way to engage conversationally and respectfully, without using them when requested.
So, even though it is internally aggravating, if I choose to engage, showing the basic decency of at least making a best effort of addressing one how they request is the least one can do, supposing that the individual is not specifically requesting to be addressed in a manner to elevate themselves over others (whether in good or bad faith, ex. "King", "Master", etc - save that for scenes, if that's your kind of thing).
Now, neopronouns and the like, I'm all about those because they don't break my brain and, as a bonus, many of them are novel to me.
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Was it dismissing or just not understanding?
Some folk require understanding before they offer acceptance. Those folk will frame it as “just not understanding”. I frame that as lack of acceptance. Acceptance isn’t contingent on understanding. You or I not understanding an aspect of someone elses identity has nothing to do with the validity of their identity.
If you wish to ask someone questions about their pronouns and identity, you’re welcome to do so, but remember they don’t owe you an answer, and whether they offer you an answer or not, and whether you understand their perspective or not, either way, gatekeeping and invalidating their identity is not on.
they are so uncomfortable to use that it just makes me not want to address someone who uses them
That was the other option I offered folk. If someone has stated their pronouns, either use them, or if you can’t bring yourself to use them, don’t engage with the person.
If the person is trolling, report them. But even if they’re trolling, the above statement still stands. Respect their pronouns or don’t engage with them as you report them.
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How can one accept or reject a thing without understanding what it is they are accepting? Is not immediately changing the way one speaks without a reason or even an explicit request equivalent to denying someone’s identity? I don’t think my discomfort with neopronouns is because I reject anyone’s identity. I don’t even understand what such a person’s identity is. Unlike established pronouns, neopronouns do not have any meaning at all to me because I’ve never heard them before and no one has defined them. What do they signify? I assume something different for each one, so what is it? I’ve always been careful with my language, so using words without a clear understanding of their meaning makes me uncomfortable.
Language is a very meaningful topic for people. Both for the speaker and the spoken to. We have all been acculturated to speak in a certain way, and to understand the meanings of such speech in a certain way. I don’t think asking people to change the way they speak is as trivial as you seem to imply. Nor is declining to change the way one speaks the same as saying “I reject your identity”, unless such a meaning is intended.
And of course I understand that someone may not want to have this (or any) conversation. But I also feel that you can’t expect people to change without them understanding why they need to change. Most people hate change, it’s just human nature. So if you choose not to educate people, you’ll have to accept that they remain ignorant until such time as someone takes on that burden.
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I'm trans. Cis people literally can never truly understand my experience or why the things that are important to me are important. Acceptance can't be contingent on understanding they can never have.
Neopronouns are the same. You can work on your own understanding to reduce your discomfort but your discomfort should be your problem, not something you get to force on to others
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If people cannot understand your experience, it's not because you are trans and they are cis. There is no universal trans experience and you still need to work to make yourself understood to other trans people, who have entirely different experiences from your own. People have the capacity to understand things outside their direct experience. Some people go 40 years thinking of themselves as cis, and then change their mind!
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If people cannot understand your experience, it's not because you are trans and they are cis
Well, it's not just that. As you say, even trans folk can't understand other trans folks experience. But that still speaks to my point. Acceptance shouldn't be gatekept behind understanding
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And yet you're fine when transphobes are harassing trans people and telling them to kill themselves, not to mention using right-wing memes made to attack trans people.
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I think the broader issue is, you say you're uncomfortable saying something. And at the same time other people say the want to be addressed like that. And, now what? I mean those might all be valid concerns/feelings/whatever. But we can't have it both ways. So what do we do to solve this? You need to find some agreement on how to address someone, or silence is the other option.
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I actually think silence might be the worst option since that’s a very exclusionary solution that isn’t helping build bridges between people. So it may be someone is going to have to just get over it. Maybe that should be me, I don’t know. But I think it would help me to do that to hear from somehow how it makes them feel and why it’s important to them.
Let’s be real—the vast majority of us were raised in a very cisnormative culture. And there was a lot of conscious and unconscious bigotry that most of us absorbed from that. So for me it has been a bit of a process over the years to peel back the layers and try to get it all out of me. I think I still have to do more work at this. While it doesn’t seem to me today that my discomfort is coming from a place of prejudice, I’m also not sure my own perspective on that is always correct.
I kind of went through a similar thing with trans folks back in the day. I struggled to understand the concept of gender dysphoria and hearing the emotional experiences of trans people was very helpful in understanding why inclusive language matters. While I can’t really wrap my head around why it matters so much, it is a raw and emotional issue that I can help with, so it’s just kind of an issue of basic politeness at that point.
If neopronouns are the same then I guess I will try to go along with them even though they seem like a quite confusing and difficult way for people to communicate. But again, it would be nice to hear from someone that yes, this really matters to them. I know that may be asking a lot but it would help me.
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Let’s be real—the vast majority of us were raised in a very cisnormative culture. And there was a lot of conscious and unconscious bigotry that most of us absorbed from that
Hi, another trans person here.
I was also one of those vast majority of people raised in cisnormative culture. Just like you. After a lot of thought and introspection I realized the person I am in my mind, did not match the corporeal form I was given. So I am taking steps to make that vision of my self a reality. That often means using language that is not used in “cisnormative culture”. As with any language you don’t speak, you have two options. Learn to speak it yourself and come back to converse with those people OR choose not to learn it and move on with your life, leaving them be. Some people think there is this funny little third option called “colonization”, but it’s generally frowned upon. /lh
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Or, do what my instance did, and ban him for being a transphobic troll that harasses people, which is the only sensible action.
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Drag does not use he/him.
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Since the mod took issue with my comment, let me rephrase it so that it doesn't break any rules, because I think it's important for everyone to understand the abusive and transphobic behavior you willfully enable.
You may have fallen for the right-wing attack helicopter meme bullshit that person was shoveling out, but I'm not interested in pandering to transphobes, and I'm not playing that person's games. Which is exactly why I blocked the entirety of your instance, because I want nothing to do with people who cater to shit like that. You should be ashamed of the harm you've caused the trans community with your behavior.
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You should be ashamed of the harm you’ve caused the trans community with your behavior.
Are you trans?
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Absolute bullshit. I called drag out and ONLY drag. I made no mention of neopronouns or even said anything remotely dismissive of pronouns as I am a huge supporter of all of it.
Yet I was banned because I called drag a shit tier troll that was making a mockery of the trans community.
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That last part is transphobic. No trans person represents the trans community and setting higher standards for trans people than cis people is transphobic. You can call them out for being a troll, but using someone’s gender identity in an insult is always transphobic.
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Your comments were removed. You aren't instance banned
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Community banned as I recall. And even removing the comments because I called them a troll and accused them of mocking the trans community was bullshit in light of the recent acknowledgment that they are- in fact, a troll.
They went to where they knew they could take advantage of the rules that protect the trans community- and then weaponized it to create drama and get shit removed.
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I'm an instance admin. I don't issue community bans. I issue instance bans. If someone community banned you, it wasn't me.
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I can’t check because blahaj modlogs won’t even load for me without timing out, but my point remains. I was banned/had comments removed for calling out a troll. Who did it is irrelevant.
You guys circled the wagons around a known troll and went scorched-earth on anyone that so much as said they weren’t being genuine.
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The policy came from me. It's an instance level policy that you were never banned for.
I did remove some of your comments, and I will do that again if I become aware of misgendering, even if it's accidental. But it didn't get you banned then, and unless you start deliberately misgendering folk, it won't get you banned now either.
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Drag is just someone with an unusual gender, bot has no qualms with that. Perhaps you should use Tumblr if you wanna see more people with out-there gender identities, the trans Tumblr community is part of the reason bot still uses that site
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yay drone rights and such, am i rite?
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Can you fill in the backstory? I missed this incident or possibly multiple incidents.
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Blahaj said you have to respect everyone's pronouns, even if you think they are trolling, because it's not up for debate and you don't get to set conditions before you start calling someone by the right appelations. Fair enough.
A user figured out that meant they could identify as a dragon, tell everyone their pronouns were "drag," and get people banned from blahaj for not saying "drag," or trying to tell this person that drag weren't actually a dragon. Blahaj, in the mode of overly well-intentioned leftists throughout all history, bought into it hard and obediently virtue-signaled by banning anyone who pointed out that drag was taking the piss. Presumably, drag laughed dragself out of dragr chair every time it happened. Drag also tended to display other fun behavior like encouraging other users to commit suicide, if I remember right.
Apparently, blahaj has finally figured it out. I eagerly await whatever overcorrection or other type of continuingly-counterproductive drama is going to ensue now. Presumably, some new user will emerge with some other type of bizarre edge case in the "official correct morality" that everyone is required to agree on, to instigate everyone to get into slap fights over.
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you have to respect everyone's pronouns, even if you think they are trolling, because its not up for debate and you don't get to set conditions before you start calling someone by the right [...].
The issue is, they are up to debate. You cannot have your pronoun be a 1000 character long word, or a slur, and expect other people to respect it, even though they can, few probably will.
The existence of these obvious scenarios means that you shouldn't claim to respect everyone's pronouns, when there are times where you wouldn't.
Respect of pronouns is not binary. It is a gradient. An instance or community can choose rules somewhere on the gradient, but if you choose to allow all, then you will suffer similar issues to those who who claim to "tolerate all" types of behavior on their instance.
Just don't choose an absolute stance, and then these issues won't arise.
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Yeah. I get where the whole "we're going to make a hard-and-fast universal rule" decision came from. But that's just not how life works. You have to leave room for people to make decisions based on their own common sense and judgement, and resist the temptation to lay down a rule for them that they MUST ALWAYS FOLLOW OR THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES to make everything simple and conflict-free.
I have moved on from the whole debate, lest I get in trouble and cause pointless drama. But yes, that is exactly the crux of the matter.
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It's a nice story, but it's not what happened.
Drag was active long before I made the pronoun post, and that post is the second post I've made on the topic in the last couple of years.
Drags pronouns are to be respected. Everyone's pronouns are to be respected. It's pretty simple.
The need for some people to need to put an "except..." at the end of that last sentence is something I will never understand.
That hasn't changed, and the position long predates your account being created.
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appreciate your consistent and calm attitude to such a frustrating and consistent onslaught of criticism ada, as always <3
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Just one thing, "drag" apparently isn't even short for "Dragon", but "Dragon fucker".
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Wow, thanks for the feedback.
appelations: learned a new word
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FYI, that post was incorrect (and the user has been banned for comments made elsewhere). You can see some clarifications in my reply to the comment.
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See also Grail, who insisted their pronouns must be capitalized.
Respecting people's gender is not carte blanche to make up rules. Like, I can't say my pronouns have italicized vowels during local business hours, and must use thee / thou / thine if you're disagreeing with me. That's simply not what pronouns are for. It's not why they matter.
Taking a 'shut up and do it anyway' approach to moderation is simpler, and perhaps understandable. But you have to acknowledge that's what you're doing. When you genuinely believe there is no limit, that gender is both super fucking important and so meaningless that it can be anything, people are going to try politely talking you through some immediately obvious problems.
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You clearly have a bone to pick, but it should be noted that Drag was a well-known user long before the post clarifying Blahaj's stance on neopronouns was posted, at least by a couple of months.
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Drag was a well-known user
Troll. The word is troll, not user. Drag has never been here in good faith, and good fucking riddance. They make the trans community look lesser for their association
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You are out of touch with reality.
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Yeah it was kind of obvious it was the attack helicopter meme from the start. The whole thing was a bit silly in the sense that pronouns which don't reflect human reality aren't really any kind of moral hazard for ones that do imo.
At the same time, I kind of feel like gate keeping pronouns actually gives the trolls power in a way. Imagine someone at the office does this and then everyone actually calls them a Christmas tree or whatever. The lack of concern about this new nickname in the broader population would definitely piss them off, since they are the one who cares about that stuff.
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I think, also, what gives the trolls power is everyone getting upset about it. If it was 50% of the office saying "Is ChristmasTreeSelf coming to the party?" and 50% saying "Bro I'm not saying that it is stupid", but neither one really treating it as any different than any other Tuesday, then it's fine. But because people have this deeply held impassion about the whole issue (which exists for a valid reason of course), it means they feel like they need to set these super-rigid rules about what is "allowed" and "not allowed" out of those outcomes, and then other people get upset about having things they are thinking inside their head that they will get banned if they say out loud, and it just becomes a situation of upset-ness instead of anything like positive communication between people. And then there are people who like to be performatively upset because someone violated the rules and now they're all excited to correct them, which just compounds the problem which was already an upset situation.
It is okay if people think different from you. I feel like a lot of modern society involves people needing the debate to continue until their own particular viewpoint is "proven right" and becomes the law of the land, so they won't have to deal with any enemy viewpoints anywhere within the kingdom without someone coming in to correct them, forcibly if necessary, which isn't really how it works.
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Summarizes it perfectly.
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I can’t remember the exact details but I believe at least a few people were banned for suggesting that drag was a troll and refusing to use their preferred neopronouns.
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People weren’t banned for criticizing them, they were banned for encouraging others to misgender people if they don’t like them. I don’t think anyone was banned for not using “personal” neo pronouns.
And drag was banned from BZ for telling people to KYS, then they went and made a new account on a different instance and have continued pissing people off, now the new acount is being banned from stuff because they’ve continued the kind of behavior that got them banned in the first place.
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they were banned for encouraging others to misgender people if they don’t like them
(My God what the fuck am I thinking wading into this.)
"Dragon" isn't a gender. Refusing to identify someone as the gender they identified with, because you thought they were trolling, is fucked up yes. That's why blahaj made the rule, and it's a good rule. Refusing to identify someone as a dragon because you think they're trolling is A-ok. Deliberately conflating those two issues, so that you pretend someone is "misgendering" if they exercise a small amount of common sense and refuse to go along with someone being a dragon, is I think exactly the trick this particular troll was trying to play, and it worked like fireworks. I think in terms of creating conflict between two reasonable points of view on this topic that would get people on both sides all amped up about it, they succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.
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Its not even "Dragon". Its "Dragon Fucker".I made an error. It's short for "Dragon Rider".
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Drag's gender isn't dragon fucker. That's drag's sexuality. Drag's gender is dragon rider. One is about who drag is, one is about who drag likes to fuck.
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At the same time, the thing is so ridiculous that it doesn't really interfere with any sincerely held belief, I think. The drama is what the troll wants.
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This is the usual series of events for the drag drama:
Drag: does something that any Lemmy user does: Commenting, posting, etc. Something innocuous
Someone: Hey. I'm not calling you that/Why are you called that?
Drag: explains
Someone: Fucking trollDoes that really seem like someone starting fights on purpose? It's people going out of their way to pick a fight with drag, and drag retaliating. Drag doesn't start these things most of the time
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When drag misgendered someone its no big deal, but when drag gets mis-pronouned its a huge drama.
Drag doesn’t start these things most of the time
Go fucking figure.
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How many alts are you gonna make, drag?
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Bot is not drag. Bot understands why you may think that, but bot is just a friend of drag. Bot doesn't use Lemmy for a long list of reasons, so Bot only uses Lemmy when drag gets extra upset about something on Lemmy because bot cares about drag :[
Bot is willing to provide proof that bot is not drag, so long as such proof does not dox either of us
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As long as bot does not engage in the problematic activities that drag does, I don't need proof that bot is not drag. I am not, after all, a mod or admin, nor do I intend to ever be.
Which isn't to say the people in charge of various instances or communities won't take you up on that offer. But I'm willing to let bot be, and to refer to bot as bot pleases, so long as bot isn't making a mockery of trans people. Times are hard for queer folk of all kinds, and I don't like seeing trans folk being mocked. I don't like that at all, bot.
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'us' seems a mite too conventional for a plural pronoun if you're intent on re-inventing singular ones.
Anyway, you could at least commit to the bit, and actually mark your account as a bot, instead of just saying you are one. There's likely some instances where bots that aren't marked as bots are against their terms of service.
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I got most if not all of my comments on that post removed because i called them a troll that made a mockery of the trans community.
And now they banned the troll.
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You got your comments removed for misgendering. Your mod log history is right there
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I never saw much that made me think there was trolling going on but I won’t pretend to know anything for sure.
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205 comments