Tyreek Hill learned he isn’t allowed to do what white people do
Tyreek Hill learned he isn’t allowed to do what white people do
The NFL star says his fame helped him get out of a tense situation. But there is little point in denying he was treated differently due to his race
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I’ll get downvoted, but the body cam footage I saw showed Tyreek talking back to the officer, refusing instructions by rolling up his window, and telling them not to knock on his car window. It’s not exactly surprising he got yanked out of his car. Go ahead and argue it wouldn’t happen to a white person. I’m not getting into that discussion. Perhaps the cops should have attempted to deescalate, but Tyreek did himself 0 favors. Was not surprised that he found out after fucking around with the cop.
At this point, what you're saying is like telling a woman she shouldn't have been there or wearing that, and ignoring the real issue with power here.
Cops largely are pathetic power-abusing shitheads who escalate at every possible opportunity. You should not have to cower to every whim and demand of a cop if you are not doing anything dangerous. Cops have lost any credibility to suggest that we should have to give a shit about every stupid fucking tiny thing they have an issue with.
Based on your argument, you could say you'll only speak to a lawyer and you're giving the cops an out to beat the shit out of you for not complying. Cops don't understand non-violent approaches to solving any problem, and THAT is the problem to focus on.
Fuck the police.
Sure, fuck the police but I argue a white person or a black person is heading for a bad time if they act the way that he acted. I can’t speculate on this any more than anybody else on “what if” scenarios should Tyreek have been white, but if you create a situation where the cop does not feel safe (e.g. rolling up your 100% tinted windows against their instructions) then you are going to get an escalation from the police.
if you create a situation where the cop does not feel safe
You reach for your license 'too fast' - cop does not feel safe Acorn falls on car - cop doesn't feel safe You are boiling water at home - cop does not feel safe You are writhing in pain underneath their boot - cop does not feel safe
US cops are literally brainwashed into feeling like the public is a threat to them. They are wired to look for a reason to escalate.
Fine but those situations are not the same as “angry and noncooperative citizen disobeying my request and I can no longer see what is happening inside the vehicle.”
I would argue that this is actually the correct situation for a police officer to feel more concerned for their safety.
The fact that we need to be concerned for our safety at all while "disobeying" a cop is proof that they act too aggressively and with almost no accountability. Cops can start a gang and murder you and no one bats a fucking eye
Why would a guy in a McLaren, who already gave you his ID, raise suspicions that he might be trying to harm you by simply rolling his window up? This cop mentality that everyone is seconds away from ambushing them like they're in Fallujah circa 2002 is absurd and drives a lot of this police brutality and overreaction. Don't forget that these are paid professional government employees. It's not the citizen's job to coddle police and play into their own personal paranoia and delusions just to avoid getting beaten or shot.
I dunno, I'm way less terrified of the guy with a 40k watch in a 150k car than I would be in any other situation. Unless I was super jealous that this black dude was rich, and he didn't show immediate respect to me. Then I might pull him out of his car despite having everything I need to write the citation and being in 0 danger literally surrounded by other officers.
I don't have any studies to hand, but isn't the disparity between police responses to non-white vs white suspects a given at this point, in the US at least?
But lets look at your argument both ways.
On the one hand you'd be arguing that race disparity in police responses doesn't exist at all and so wouldn't apply here.
Or
Race disparity exists, but in this specific situation it doesn't apply for some reason.
If that's the case , id be interested in hearing why you think it doesn't apply in this specific circumstance?
Neither of those sound plausible to me but i could be missing what your actual argument is entirely, in which case, would you mind explaining why it doesn't fall in to the above categories?
It’s more the latter. I don’t argue that race disparity exists. I’m only arguing that Tyreek did not do any kind of favor to himself in how he handled the situation. I’m sorry he got pulled from his car and cuffed, but my reaction to the video was that he had this coming. Blatantly disobeying an officer’s requests and in a way that can lead the officer to feel unsure over his/her safety and perceived control of the situation is going to end poorly. This could easily happen to a white person.
It’s more the latter. I don’t argue that race disparity exists. I’m only arguing that Tyreek did not do any kind of favor to himself in how he handled the situation.
Agreed, but "didn't do the most optimal thing in a given situation" isn't the same as "deserved to be dragged out of his car"
Especially in a situation where it is known to be significantly more dangerous, regardless of behaviour, for someone of a more melanin-rich persuasion.
This confusion is easily resolved though, let's clarify with a couple questions.
Do you think anyone (regardless of race) should have received that level of response in that situation ?
Do you think anyone (regardless of race) would have received that level of response in that situation ?
I’m sorry he got pulled from his car and cuffed, but my reaction to the video was that he had this coming.
I'd personally view that as two opposing viewpoints, either you think he had it coming or you're sorry it happened.
Blatantly disobeying an officer’s requests and in a way that can lead the officer to feel unsure over his/her safety and perceived control of the situation is going to end poorly.
And this is the crux of the issue, officers feeling unsafe and their level of perceived control is known to have a direct correlation to how reflective your skin is.
That doesn't even account for the officers with a blatant racial bias.
So you can argue that point, but the threshold for where actions end up in poor outcomes is intrinsically linked to race, any argument you make is going need to account for that or it's going to be perceived as missing a large chunk of the context.
Which is what is happening here.
This could easily happen to a white person.
That's subjective but again, let's clarify :
In these exact same circumstances, you'd expect a white person to be treated in the exact same way ?
Do you think anyone (regardless of race) should have received that level of response in that situation ?
As with any dispute, both parties can always strive for more, but I try to put myself in the cop’s situation. How long is long enough before you have to pull somebody who is clearly not cooperating from their car? Not following a lawful order during a traffic stop is a misdemeanor, which means you may be exiting your vehicle whether you like it or not.
Do you think anyone (regardless of race) would have received that level of response in that situation ?
I am positive racism plays a part in policing. But I didn’t see anything in this that leads me to believe Tyreek’s skin color affected his outcome. I’m a white dude and I easily see this happening to me if I did what he did.
I’m sorry he got pulled from his car and cuffed, but my reaction to the video was that he had this coming.
I'd personally view that as two opposing viewpoints, either you think he had it coming or you're sorry it happened.
They are not opposing or mutually exclusive viewpoints. I can be sorry for someone for the outcome they have been dealt based on their own actions. I can be sorry for him but also unsurprised.
In these exact same circumstances, you'd expect a white person to be treated in the exact same way ?
Yes, I truly feel this way in these circumstances. Perhaps I’m a naive idiot, but I just didn’t sense that he was treated that unfairly given his actions.
Do you think anyone (regardless of race) should have received that level of response in that situation ? As with any dispute, both parties can always strive for more, but I try to put myself in the cop’s situation. How long is long enough before you have to pull somebody who is clearly not cooperating from their car? Not following a lawful order during a traffic stop is a misdemeanor, which means you may be exiting your vehicle whether you like it or not.
That's not an answer to the question, that's a reiteration of your previous stance.
Do you think anyone (regardless of race) would have received that level of response in that situation ? I am positive racism plays a part in policing. But I didn’t see anything in this that leads me to believe Tyreek’s skin color affected his outcome.
Given that answer i go back to my previous question of :
If you understand racism plays a part in policing, what makes you think this is the exception ?
I’m a white dude and I easily see this happening to me if I did what he did.
You are entitled to your opinion, but the overall statistics disagree with you.
Not in an individual instance sense, but in an overall sense. You might very well have this same thing happen, but it's statistically much less likely.
I’d personally view that as two opposing viewpoints, either you think he had it coming or you’re sorry it happened.
They are not opposing or mutually exclusive viewpoints. I can be sorry for someone for the outcome they have been dealt based on their own actions. I can be sorry for him but also unsurprised.
Now this is interesting, i wouldn't consider "they had it coming" to be the same as "I'm unsurprised this happened" , one is very much assigning blame and the other is more neutral.
If you meant the latter, then sure, not mutually exclusive.
"I can be sorry for someone for the outcome they have been dealt based on their own actions." can easily be interpreted the same way as "I'm sorry he made the officer drag him out of his car but he totally deserved it".
Yes, I truly feel this way in these circumstances. Perhaps I’m a naive idiot, but I just didn’t sense that he was treated that unfairly given his actions.
The point the article was making wasn't that he was treated unfairly based on his actions, it was that the treatment he received was different (read: worse) because of his race.
That the treatment he received could be considered unfair for the situation isn't the point.
A boy and a girl both steal an apple, they both get grounded, the boy is also banned from the shop.
"Well the girl still got grounded" doesn't negate that the punishment wasn't equal.
Same as "The boy deserved punishment" doesn't negate that the punishment wasn't equal.
If you truly understand that racism is a large problem in all aspects of policing, that isn't naivety that's wilful ignorance.
I’m tired of talking to you because you keep trying to put words in my mouth or creating alternate understandings for which I am clearly stating my opinion. So you can “win” based on my own exhaustion of your rhetoric against mine. I’ve stated my piece and do not desire to argue it further. I hope you have a nice day and despite my desire to end the discussion, I hope you can appreciate my opinion in at least some form. Good night.
I'm stating my opinions just as you are.
Nobody is putting words into your mouth. I'm responding to the words you have said.
I've been trying to understand how you could hold such opinions in the face of both facts and your own stated understatings.
Seems willful ignorance is where we landed.
From your other responses elsewhere in the thread it seems this isn't isolated to just this exchange.
For the record, I do not appreciate your opinion on this as it lacks merit or substance.
If you are unwilling or unable to defend your opinions, a public forum is unlikely to be a good experience for you.
I'd suggest a blog, with the comments turned off.
I really can't imagine thinking that no matter how disrespectful someone was during a traffic violation, that escalating to pulling someone out of the car and putting them in handcuffs is ok.
Office was never in any danger, he was actually surrounded by other officers. You should be able to disrespect an officer and that should not escalate being physically handled like that.
The expectation for a criminal in a criminal act is to have as much force as needed applied to them to get them to comply. The expectation of an asshole at a traffic stop should be to get his big ticket and keep moving.
If you don't want to be called a boot licker, stop licking boots!
There are videos of white people doing this kind of thing and getting manhandled. Usually Karens.
Yeah nah. I thought your comment was probably the reasonable middle ground until I watched the footage too.
The police has 100% needlessly escalated to violence and fully on a power trip. They have not provided any reason for asking the window to be rolled down - nor did they have any. You can see into the car even though there's a lot of glare on the camera, most likely even better vision for a person. They made no attempt to explain any reasoning for the request to persuade him. Once on the ground and being cuffed, they proceeded to shout at him "when we tell you to do something you do it, not what you want". That's not how it works.
He didn't even try to resist the arrest but they treated him with quite a bit of force. They didn't listen at all when he called out he had an injury and needs more time to comply with the order of sitting down.
Yes, Tyreek did himself no favours with his attitude but he has also done absolutely nothing to deserve this treatment. He wasn't even particularly rude to the cops, his mistake seemed to be not to act fully deferential to a cop on a power trip, which is absolutely no reason to treat anyone like this.
So you think that we owe abject obedience to authority figures because they might hurt you otherwise but it would still be your fault if they did?
Sounds a lot like an abusive husband claiming that he wouldn't have to beat his wife if she hadn't burned their dinner.
Exactly this. This person is an authoritarian/fascist shill.
This is what I greatly dislike within this community. Why must you resort to calling me names because you disagree with my point of view? Your view of my opinion on an isolated matter does not make me those things and I don’t appreciate it.
Just slap a label on me and make that your reason to be “correct”. This place sadly does not support opposing points of view that are thoughtfully made without cutting each other down and calling people names.
You’re advocating for those two things. Starting the obvious isn’t an insult. We have a right to comment on that things we see with our eyes.
You have a right to comment, but this community has a right to civil discourse.
My friend, you engaged in victim blaming, and when called out on it, you doubled down. That's uncivil and generally insulting. Meh.
How does this relate to domestic abuse and what did I say to imply that I am one who would do such a thing?
Because you implied that he deserved to get assaulted and thrown to the ground for "talking back" and "not following instructions." You don't see the parallels between this and a husband assaulting and throwing to the ground their wife for talking back and not following instructions? What makes this okay simply because it's being conducted by a person who took a 6 week training course and gets to wear a badge on their chest?
They're also literally defending cops, probably the most well known group of domestic abusers out there. It really isn't a big leap to make that if someone gets defensive over abusers (or racists), it's because they're actually getting defensive about their own behaviour.
E: also, the fact that the mods had removed your comment, but none of the racist bootlicker's, tells you everything you need to know about who they prioritise in this space - when "don't be a dick" becomes "don't be a dick to fascists", you're actively platforming fascists.
No, I don’t. I don’t believe I stated that.
I've been Tyreek and have been picked up on disorderly conduct charges for mocking a police officer to his face. They did not treat me like that. It was all bullshit too, they just wanted to search me thinking I was an easy target.
What you're are saying is the police get your complete obedience no matter what. Frankly, that is just not how humans work. I don't care if you're an authority. If you target me I will feel a way about it.
Edit: BTW charges dropped because being rude is not illegal. Cops don't just get your complete obedience. That is not the law. It may be a norm but we have the power to change norms. To change laws. Don't perpetuate your own oppression.
Disrespecting a police officer is not an invitation for police brutality. You are a bootlicker for having this mentality.
Police officers should be professionals and try to use the least violent means necessary, and if there is even a hint of excess, they should be deemed unfit to hold the power of authority over others. Police should be reactive on the escalation ladder, only using violence when they receive violence. However, police are given a carte blanche to do violence by claiming in any interaction that they felt threatened, giving them impunity and why we're here today.
It was Tyreek not following directions and making the inside of his car not clearly visible to the officer (despite his requests). That creates a safety problem for the officer. This was the main issue IMO. If words don’t work and the citizen is not cooperating then I’m curious what is the next step besides pulling the guy from his car?
He lowered his window, handed his license over, and put his windows back up. The officer felt safe enough to stand by the widow for half a minute, knocking on the glass. The argument that the situation was threatening holds zero water and is just bootlicker cope.
The officer can make all kinds of demands, but if they don't fall under the procedures they are required to follow, then it's on the officer. The lack of following procedures is likely why the officer is suspended and will hopefully no longer be on the force. The excessive use of force is also going to result in tax payers paying millions to the recipient of the assault.
Please stop calling me a bootlicker. It’s not necessary for this conversation to occur.
Sorry about that.
It is a pejorative, but only trying to use it as short hand for people that freely give away their rights to authority.
It is a pejorative
No, it isn't, just like TERF isn't or like pointing out someone is white or male isn't, they are all simple statements of fact, that those they apply to don't like because, being used to always being the "default" that doesn't need categorising, it gives them the tiniest of glimpses of being part of an out group, without all of the oppression people like them actually enforce on members of the groups they marginalise.
Don't play in to the hands of the victimhood seeking bootlicker. This person is not being attacked or bullied or harmed in any way, they are literally just facing the consequences of their actions and words.
As they fucking should.
Requests are optional, my friend. And the visibility no concern. We know that's a blatant lie. You want to know how we know? Easy.
What if the cop doesn't force him out of the car? What would the cop do? I got it! He'd go back to his police car, far from Tyreek, perfectly safe, and then he'd write up the ticket. Then he'd walk back to Tyreek and give him the ticket. The end. Almost no contact, and all of that with backup officers on hand ready to assist. No violence, no handcuffs, no nothing.
After all, most people driving expensive cars aren't gonna stress about a speeding ticket. So give them the ticket already.
Yeah man, being rude to a public servant justifies being torn out of your car, slammed into the pavement and placed in handcuffs. Fuck right off.
Please don’t resort to those words. I am entitled to my opinion in this community without being told to fuck off.
No you ain't. Open your mouth and get a mouth back. Telling people to obey or be beaten like that's a reasonable thing to say. Go fuck yourself.
I am entitled to my opinion in this community
As is everyone else!
And just like everyone else, your feelings of entitlement don't protect you from having your shit opinion criticised, nor you, for having it!
So fuck off, racist bootlicker.
You must be new on the internet. But for real, I feel you. Internet is very polarized and people resort to rudeness way too quickly.
My dad once rolled his window up on a cop. He told officer to wait because he was on a cell call with my step mom.
He didn't get dragged out of vehicle, the state tropper waited and then gave my dad a huge fine.
Two things this was the 90's in Texas and my dad is white.
Being rude is protected by the Constitution, as you learned in high school civics class. You did a perfect job of blaming the victim.
On the other hand, maybe what you were trying to say is something like, "We gotta be practically-minded because the cops are dirty racist bastards who will beat the hell out of us."
as you learned in high school civics class
As you learned in what now?
I took AP US Government in highschool, but I don't remember what the non-AP alternative was. I think civics classes were the same idea but got removed at some point because I don't remember hearing about them while I was in school. The same way reading class got merged into language arts class I guess.
I don't know. I slept through a bunch of high school classes, but I heard that people studied that kind of stuff.
Being rude is protected, but holeing yourself in the car after committing a crime is not.
The police have to identify, notify, serve and if required detain. Preventing this is obstruction.
Still they handled this in one of the worst possible ways. Obstruction doesn't mean force is required, and specially not before extensive attempts to deescalate.
Speeding isn't a crime, it's an infraction. If speeding is a crime then everyone is a criminal. It's not like he held up a gas station.
He was waiting to receive his ticket. All they had to do was wrote the ticket. What was obstructed, other than their egos? ... This is contempt of cop, nothing more.
If you don't do anything immoral, you shouldn't be arrested. Refusing to submit to cops is not enough reason alone for them to physically harass you.
He wasn’t arrested. He was temporarily detained so that the police officers could safely issue a speeding ticket to an uncooperative citizen.
Detain and arrest are the same thing. If you aren't under arrest, then you're free to leave.
You've got plenty of replies already, but I don't see one saying this. You do not have a requirement to be nice to the cops. You have to identify yourself in most states, and you have to provide license and registration. You do no have to (nor should you) answer questions or be polite. The reason they ask questions is to get you to contradict other statements or to otherwise incriminate yourself. Their job is not to protect people. It's to arrest people. It's shitty, but that's the world we're in. We should not defend the state agents who are given this much power over us. It is wrong and indefensible.
What if I told you none of this should matter in how people in positions of authority treat you. The cops were wrong here. End of story.
Okay, I will argue that. Because it wouldn't have happened to a white person. I've seen white people get away with doing a lot more than that to cops.
I've seen plenty of sovcit videos where white people get their windows smashed and dragged out of the car
Yes. After doing a lot more than he did first.
Also, cops leave SovCits alone all the time because they don't want to deal with that shit. Black people, not so much.
Squid - I think your arguments are subjective at best. Because I saw a white guy get away with more doesn’t mean that this is an issue of race and your sample size of n=1 doesn’t hold a lot of weight for your argument either. I’m a white guy and I would never dream of acting out like Tyreek did for fear that the same thing could happen to me. I have a hard time seeing race as the issue based on what I saw. Tyreek even said he was embarrassed after the fact. He didn’t handle this situation well at all.
Sov Cits don't have documentation and refuse to comply with lawful orders. This gentleman gave the police his documentation and they got mad he wasn't bending over and spreading his asshole.
It's funny cause this situation is so crazy with how the cops escalated this situation when it wasn't warranted, you actually have to compare them to someone doing an actual crime!
Like that's how crazy this debate even is. Rich dude in super car being an asshole vs a person who is willfully driving with fake paperwork hoping a cop pulls them over.
Hill just looked like a rich asshole in a hurry and I can't imagine anyone advocating that the police action was OK.
On occasion, racist cops will violate white folks too. They're never perfectly racist.
Like dodging charges for assaulting his girlfriend in college? Or how about when he beat his kid and told his wife, "Bitch, you should be too" after she said to him, "your son is terrified of you" the proceeded to threaten his wife to lie to the authorities so the charges would be dropped.
He acted like the fucking scum bag he is to the cops and he fuckin got what he deserved. Mother fucker has been dodging charges that any non-athletic white person would never get away with. This piece of shit deserves to get hog tied and strung up like s pinata for his son to break open.
Sorry, the cops did that to him because of things he did in the past and not at the time of arrest and he was not charged with those things at the time of arrest?
This sounds sort of like people excusing Kyle Rittenhouse because he killed a sex offender, as if he could have known that.
disgusting take
I have no problem with rich assholes getting knocked down a peg or two or three.
Keeping your window rolled down during a traffic stop is not an unreasonable demand, especially when it's heavily tinted.
He already provided his license. The officers job was to go back to his vehicle and prepare a citation. Instead they decided to go on a power trip.
Yes it is
I've seen videos of it happening to white people. They are all over youtube. I don't think k he was wrong for first pulling him out, if the police just let you ignore them they couldn't do their jobs, but after that he started power tripping.
Fuck the cops anyways though