Bernie Sanders to voters skipping presidential election over Israel: ‘Trump is even worse’
Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) shares his message to voters in the Uncommitted Movement who are considering not voting in the presidential race over the Biden administration's handling of Israel.
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Single-issue voters are ignorant to begin with, but failing to help stop another Trump presidency isn't the moral high ground. If you're in that group there's no point polishing your halo, because you are shitting on it.
It's the equivalent of "I can't save everyone, so I'll doom them instead!"
I agree with Michael Moore's theory that this was why many people voted for Trump in 2016. They felt ignored and powerless, so they said okay here, I'll vote for this asshole, see how you like that! It was an expensive lesson that I don't think the Democratic party has really paid attention to. Their response was to rethink their campaign strategies - many of them probably blamed their loss on trying to elect a woman for President - so they regrouped and managed to get Biden elected. But he didn't put any bold ideas forward. All he really did was be a Democrat in the White House instead of a Republican. I don't feel like Kamala Harris is playing that game. She really does want to move forward in a big way and not go back.
So genocide is a single issue to you, like school vouchers or fema funding? I think that says a lot about you. None of it good.
edit: and please, downvote away if you dont agree, But notice how close the election is and how many upvotes this viewpoint has. 28 up to 70 down is what I see at this point. If Harris loses it will be because she flatly ignored this ~30% of of Dem voters.
I mean its likely trump will continue the genocide for people who managed to flee to the US by revoking the legal status of refugees given he seems to think the word "palestinian" means "terrorist"
The cruel calculus is that Netanyahu wants trump to win.
Do you hold your nose and vote Harris to deny Netanyahu another victory or do you roll over entirely for Netanyahu and let him have an assistant in genocide with Trump? What is the lesser of two evils here?
Netanyahu, at least, will be thrilled to hear palestinians are not voting for Kamala because of him.
I mean its likely trump will continue the genocide for people who managed to flee to the US by revoking the legal status of refugees given he seems to think the word “palestinian” means “terrorist”
We already almost completely deny them. The US has accepted less than 600 Palestinians in the last decade. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/republicans-want-ban-palestinian-refugees-already-hard-get-in-us-rcna120892
so some 600 people will likely get persecuted if trump wins?
hostage situation huh. With both Harris and Trump saying they are about to kill people, but Trump killing more unless we give Harris our support.
That's the dark calculus of it all. I would also point out the villain here is Netanyahu and the main reason to vote Harris here is to deny him a margin of victory. Who knows what plans Trump and Netanyahu have cooked up behind the scenes.
What part of "Trump is actively sabotaging peace talks" do you not understand?
Please, refer to this chart -
Many thousands of us dont vote for genociders of any party. "What part of that do you not understand". Support genocide, then we dont support you, full stop.
The two party system is a broken system. You do not choose who you support. You vote against who you dislike the most. It's a shit system, but wasting your vote is more akin to supporting Trump than voting for Harris is to supporting Harris.
My vote is one of many who think this way. When you stand alone you are unempowered yes, but when you have a lot of people behind you then you're a movement and you have power. The anti genocide movement has power that Harris needs to win, Our votes are there for the taking, and its up to Harrsi to choose whether she'll pick AIPAC or us. If she picks AIPAC and the destruction of our republic, then thats on her. IF the continuation of our system of government depends on bribery to do the murder of innocents, then its time to change our system of government.
Our system of government is fundamentally rotten and needs to be changed in general regardless of Harris. Not voting, resulting in putting a fascist in power isn't how you do that.
Our system of government is fundamentally rotten and needs to be changed
Allowing yourself to be steered by maneuvered into giving away your once every 4 years bit of negotiating ability is not the way you do that.
If you think your only bit of "negotiating ability" is once every four years, you're doing it wrong. Not only that, if you think not voting is doing anything to change anything, you're actually just a straight up moron. Protests, local elections, pressuring representatives. If you actually care and aren't just virtue signaling, do shit that matters.
So wasting the chance to pressure our candidate in a close election is moronic huh. Alrighty friend.
Protests, local elections, pressuring representatives. If you actually care and aren’t just virtue signaling, do shit that matters.
I like how you list "pressuring representitives" on your list of "shit that matters". Right next to "protests". ... I am literally pressuring our representative.
do shit that matters
Like you're doing?
But yeah let me know how your letter writing and sign holding campaign goes in the face of AIPAC domination of our entire governmental system. I am sure you will be successful with such bold and timely measures. Hey have you tried a call in campaign to representitives's interns? I'm sure they just need to know what you think in order to choose to do the right thing.
Right, but the trolley thing is apt here. There is no option to just stop using the trolley because it's not safe, it's a runaway trolley with too much momentum to slow down. All you can really do is decide which track it goes down, and pick the less lethal path.
Harris could steer the trolley so it doesnt hit anyone. She's not trapped on an out of control trolley car at all-- She is driving the effing thing and has full control.
A vote isn't an endorsement, you are not personally responsible for the actions of the people you vote for - otherwise trump voters would be in deep shit. Even if you vote for the best politician the world has ever seen that's still not you doing the politics and you're not responsible for it. The forces involved are simply larger than a single person.
A vote is a tool to be deployed tactically. Its powerful enough republicans are looking for ways to prevent you from having it.
Look at it this way: Netanyahu would prefer Trump win because he might get more support and expand the genocide of palestinians to US soil. A vote for Kamala likely won't improve Gaza but it will deny Netanyahu things he wants.
Tactically, there is efficacy in denying the butcher of gaza the things he wants even if it doesn't go as far as anyone needs it to. Why let Netanyahu win without a fight?
A vote isn’t an endorsement, you are not personally responsible for the actions of the people you vote for
I dont agree. When soneone says they will do something terrible and you vote for them anyway, you have enabled it and have some of that outcome on your hands.
Then you commit to never voting. If you vote for Bernie people will say "oh he endorsed joe biden, he is complicit" but you don't get to choose the battlefield only the outcome of the battle.
Fundamentally a percentage of politicians will lie, or lack resources to fulfil promises. There is simply nobody on earth that can uphold the promise of never doing something terrible, even on accident.
I reject the idea that war crimes are always the only choice we have in any election. But if thats your slant, OK, why not push for a third option-- getting Harris to stop the shipments by applying voter pressure on her. The only time politicians care about what the elctorate thinks at all is right before a close election, like right now. Why are so many dems not pushing her to take a better stand than she has had?
I actually think stopping shipments is not going to achieve anything. Polling shows its popular (so I disagree that dems aren't pushing Kamala, Biden, etc) but if Israel just changes arms suppliers its easily undermined. And we don't even know if like there's conditions on shipments like "we won't use nuclear weapons on Gaza if the shipments continue" There's just too much we don't know to vote based solely on another country's actions.
I think a better policy is to just take in gazan refugees and make it harder for hardline israelis to visit the US. Do the pullout from vietnam movie script. Of course this is a less popular policy and it is one dems likely aren't getting pressure to do, even though its low risk and high preservation of human life.
stopping shipments is not going to achieve anything. Polling shows its popular
Thats a flat out lie.
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/stop-us-arms-transfers-israel/
https://thecradle.co/articles-id/25363
https://www.commondreams.org/news/us-weapons-israel-2667435101
Are you replying to LovableSidekick? The grandparent post didn't mention genocide.
So genocide is a single issue to you, like school vouchers or fema funding?
Hey now. Vote for Kamala and you can get genocide, school privatization, and more underfunded climate disasters. You don't have to choose.
Dems of 2024 have fully ingested the Republican platform of 2004. That's why the Cheneys are campaigning for the Harris ticket.
This shit is so fucking dishonest. Go away.
Cheney is campaigning for Harris because Trump is so bad that even the Devil says "Wow, that's fucked up"
Unfortunately, the switch is broken and everyone on that top track is getting railroaded no matter who wins.
Harris has no actual plan to protect any of the above. No more than Biden or Obama did.
Oh yes, I remember living in North Carolina and when Pat McCory's cruelty to transpeople lead to him getting voted out, Governor Cooper just made it even worse because he thought it was funny...
No wait he actually expanded healthcare access for transpeople and repealed the bathroom laws.
Are you completely ignorant of the reality of the situation or are you intentionally trying to depress the Leftist voting block with doomer talk?
No wait he actually expanded healthcare access for transpeople and repealed the bathroom laws.
He did not. Transgender rights in NC were eroded over the governor's veto. State officials are now exploring how to enforce the law.
The City Council in Charlotte, North Carolina
Nothing to do with state law
You took that out of context.
And you are on here doing Netanyahu's work of trying to get as many palestinians as possible killed by focusing your Ire on what, Kamala Harris? We all know Netanyahu wants trump to win. And we all know how trump sees even domestic US palestinians legally here. He thinks they're terrorists. Do you think he won't try to deport them? Or do you agree with Trump on that front?
Why are you here doing Netanyahu's work for him? He can come on here himself and bitch about kamala, he doesn't need you.
And you are on here doing Netanyahu’s work of trying to get as many palestinians as possible killed
Ah, yes, what Netanyahu truly wants is for us to, checks notes, be angry about Israeli state terrorism.
He'd prefer leaders publicly support the genocide and would recognize the illegal settlements, offer additional support.
I also wouldn't count out the idea trump and netanyahu are undermining peace talks - we have already seen trump push republicans to reject a far right border bill because he thought it would give him advantage and the fact that Reagan did something similar with the Iran hostage crisis.
The reality is that Netanyahu would prefer Trump over Biden or Kamala, do you deny this?
Human Shields rhetoric. You're blaming the folks in the firing line for the actions of the ones pulling the trigger.
I'm accusing you of doing exactly what Netanyahu would prefer that you do, no more, no less.
I’m accusing you
"Always go on the offense and blame the other guy for dying" is the IDF strategy, yes.
you'd be the one that knows it
If/when Trump wins and he immediately deports all Palestinians, will you admit you were wrong? Or will you just double down (or are you just full of shit from the get-go)?
and he immediately deports all Palestinians
His biggest voting block? Doubtful.
Voting blocks? What voting blocks? It's cute that you think we'll continue to hold elections after Trump wins.
What voting blocks?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_bloc
you think we’ll continue to hold elections after Trump wins.
I will take 1000:1 odds, no cap, that we have municipal elections in 2025 and statewide/Congressional elections in 2026, no matter who wins
I know what a fucking voting bloc is, I was making a point.
Yeah, you know who else has elections? Russia
I know what a fucking voting bloc is
Then why did you ask?
Yeah, you know who else has elections? Russia
Far be it for me to defend the deplorable state of the post-Gorbachev government. But you don't have to cross the Pacific to find a One-Party state. You can find it easily enough in Ohio, Texas, and Florida.
I wish everyone saw this buried comment showing your complete disregard and dismissal of palestinians so they cold easily see your comments are at best those of an attention hungry narcissist.
Check out prole's recent post where they asked me to end my own life. They're truly an amazing contributor to Lemmy.
Woof. What a swell guy
So genocide is a single issue to you, like school vouchers or fema funding?
Hey now. Vote for Kamala and you can get genocide, school privatization, and more underfunded climate disasters. You don't have to choose.
Dems of 2024 have fully ingested the Republican platform of 2004. That's why the Cheneys are campaigning for the Harris ticket.
Hmmm... I swear I just saw this comment word-for-word a minute ago. Almost like it was copy/pasted.
Very strange. I've seen it too. Must be a bug. I have no other explanation.
Single-issue voters are ignorant
I think killing is wrong. Feel free to call that ignorant.
Trump told bibi to "hurry up and finish the job. He will kill 10x as many Palestinians and say they deserved it.
He has also promised to "round up millions of illegals" in the US and put them in camps, itself a genocide. He will undoubtedly kill thousands doing it.
He also stated that he will use the military to eliminate " the enemy within," who he specially called leftists like yourself. He will kill people in the process.
Your choice should be pretty clear if you abhor killing.
As a modern state with a functionning justice system
That might just be the best joke I've heard all week.
As a 19th century state with a two tier justice system....
Yes, my choice is for a party which doesn't support killing innocent people. The Dems still have time to campaign on that platform.
I agree that one party has said that they are even more pro killing innocent people. And I don't agree with that. That's because I don't agree with killing innocent people at all.
There is no level of killing innocent people that I'm okay with.
Then you're making an emotional decision based on refusing to accept anything less than perfect, and since perfection is not an option in this election, and because not voting is essentially a vote that trump doesn't have to counter, abstaining voters are proportionally more helpful to trump than they are to Harris.
Sorry, who? And what?
No, I'm seriously asking for you elaborate on who you think has done what, specfically, because we can't fact-check you if we don't know what you're talking about.
Ingrish brokern
Then you’re making an emotional decision based on refusing to accept anything less than perfect
You can continue making practical decisions based on accepting killing innocent people. I'll be over here waiting for people like you to notice what you're doing. Maybe when you are one of the innocent people being killed you will decide it's not acceptable?
You need to realise that the world is not black and white - it exists in shades of grey where nobody gets everything they want, and have to accept compromise for the greater good. You seem to be stuck in a mental state where you can't bring yourself to vote for a party that isn't offering a perfect world to you, and you must get past that and look at the bigger picture, and the impact of disgruntled blue voters staying home in protest. If trump wins, your protest will have contributed to that win, and you'll have to live with that.
Samvega isn't even American. Don't bother trying to talk with them about this.
Dammit, I got trolled.
If trump wins, your protest will have contributed to that win, and you’ll have to live with that.
No, I promise you, I won't. Me living with being in a world where killing innocent people is politically acceptable is far more harmful than the guilt I will feel on Trump winning. This is because my protest is not contributing anything to that win whatsoever. You might as well ask me to feel unhappy that the moon has craters when I - as far as I can tell - am not a large mass hurtling through space that has hit the moon.
If Trump wins, then that will simply show that enough Americans want to hurt innocent people. As is shown by America being a country which finds itself unable to strongly counter IDF terrorism visited upon Palestinians.
I will be sad, but I won't be completely surprised.
I say it again: my protest will have no effect on Trump winning.
My protest will also have no effect on innocent lives being taken. This is because we live in a morally grey world, where people can rationalise harming innocent people as an acceptable byproduct of doing business. After all, the price of compromise for me getting a better candidate is allowing brown strangers to die. Doesn't that sound great? I deserve more than them. I'm not brown, after all! It's their fault for being born where they are.
And, finally, my protest will have no effect on Trump winning.
You're quite mistaken about that. You will be responsible for trump if you had the option to vote against him and chose not to do so.
You’re quite mistaken about that. You will be responsible for trump
I promise you, my protest against killing innocent people will have no effect on Trump winning. You might be seeing things in black and white.
Well in that case, despite my attempts to educate you, you're simply delusional, and I'm not saying that to insult you - I really want to help you see the bigger picture here - I'm saying it because you're suffering from delusion, and you're not seeing the world for what it is. You are so focused on "punishing" the dems for not blocking aid to Israel (and to that point, I strongly recommend you read the comment below at https://lemmy.nz/post/15784628/11773697 as to why it isn't as simple as you might think), that you're willing to throw away what could be a deciding vote - the polls right now are so even that even a few hundred votes in the right places could throw the election the other way. Perhaps you live in a solid blue state, where you expect Harris to win regardless of how you vote, but when you post comments such as yours on a public forum, other people are going to read them, and be influenced, and if your post makes someone stop and think 'hmm... you know what, I don't agree with Biden's actions, so I'm going to abstain and punish them', and those voters are in swing states, then your actions will have had consequences. Your anger is preventing you from being able to see the bigger picture.
As for your comment that I'm seeing things in black and white, you couldn't be further from the truth. I'm not even an American, so I literally have no vote here, but the outcome of this election will have global consequences that will impact me, and that's why I'm keen for common sense to prevail, and for Harris to win. That's why, all things considered, and despite objections I may have to Biden, or even Harris's policies as they impact the rest of the world, the alternative, where Trump wins another term, simply does not bear thinking about.
You can tell yourself that but it doesn't change the reality that you will have directly contributed to Trump's victory, and the elimination of the Palestinian people (and as anyone who knows anything about WW2 will tell you: genocides can get worse).
They aren't American
You can tell yourself that but it doesn’t change the reality that you will have directly contributed to Trump’s victory
I promise you, that is not possible.
Oh right, you can't vote.
What about all the innocent women who are dying in our country because of who trump appointed to the supreme court and the result was the overturning roe vs wade?
Do those lives matter at all to you? Women bleeding to death in their cars because hospitals refuse to treat a miscarriage.
What about the kids who get massacred in school shootings because Trump and people like him won't support increased gun control legislation?
What about all the innocent people of color who have been killed by police? Do they matter to you?
If trump gets into the office not only will the Palestinian people be far worse off, so will every group I mentioned above and more.
You said you are against killing innocent people, then why dont you care about the women, children, and people of color who are getting killed in our country needlessly?
There's far more destruction for far more people if trump gets into office. If you want to double down, go for it, because I think it's worth reminding people just how much death in our country can attributed to Trump. Every woman who dies from preventable pregnancy complications. Trump directly contributed to that.
What about all the innocent women who are dying in our country because of who trump appointed to the supreme court and the result was the overturning roe vs wade?
See state ballot initiatives. they've been far more effective in 4 years than democratic presidents and congress critters have in 5 decades.
What about the kids who get massacred in school shootings because Trump and people like him won’t support increased gun control legislation?
see above.
What about all the innocent people of color who have been killed by police? Do they matter to you?
see above. biden and harris support the police remember? they actively fought against police reforms.
If trump gets into the office not only will the Palestinian people be far worse off, so will every group I mentioned above and more.
yes that is unfortunately true, maybe you should inform harris to change her position on genocide to ensure the other groups are not put at risk over her hubris? On the flip side its a lot easier to protect the groups you're white knighting for in your local community via your local reps and processes and your own personal actions.
Maybe you should realize you can in many states safely vote third party for president and democrats down ballot and essentially have the same national outcome while simultaneously undercutting the genocide harris is dead set on committing. thereby giving left wing congress critters more leverage with harris post election.
What you are really telling everyone here is that you are unwilling to give up a bit of your privileged lifestyle over a little bit of genocide. That says more about you than it does about the individuals withholding their support from harris.
state ballot initiatives
LOL, way to immediately tell everyone that you have no fucking clue how this country works.
oh dear am I embarrassed!
seeing a pattern here?
If trump gets into the office not only will the Palestinian people be far worse off, so will every group I mentioned above and more.
There is no level of killing innocent people that I’m okay with.
I'll support a political party which does not want to make people worse off because of their identity.
The problem, as I see it, is that there is literally no chance for a third party to win the presidency.
Which means that I have three options:
We can't solve the genocide by voting third party. All we can do, all that the little power granted to us can do, is try and prevent it from getting worse. So if you want to prevent as much killing as you actually can, if you want to give the most people the opportunity to live, then morally as I see it, you need to vote Harris.
Is she perfect? No. Hell no, man. But she is the candidate that with this genocide happening, and it is happening regardless of who is getting in, who will give the most Palestinians a chance to live. A third party candidate isn't making it to the White house so a third party candidate can NOT lessen the harm.
Which means that I have three options
I do not have three options, myself.
It is said that Americans have three options, the best of which only might improve the situation where one country is terrorising another country by killing innocent people, every day.
Which means that I have three options
I do not have three options, myself.
It is said that Americans have three options, the best of which only might improve the situation where one country is terrorising another country by killing innocent people, every day.
So are you American? It sounds like you aren't and, if not, why are you advocating for people not to vote or vote third party?
why are you advocating for people not to vote or vote third party?
Can you point out where I advocated for any particular voting choice? I just said that I don't find killing innocents acceptable, and would prefer to have the choice of voting for a party which agreed with that - in my mind, perfectly acceptable - moral value.
For someone that's not even American you love telling everyone in America what to do in as many posts as possible.
You’re right, there is a fourth: kill yourself. Save million of Palestinian lives by ending yours before next Tuesday.
Thanks for revealing what kind of person you are, champ!
No problem... Give me a trolley problem with you vs. millions of Palestinians, and the choice is simple.
Just say you like trump ffs
I don't like killing innocent people. Which is something Trump will do, so I don't like him.
I checked your post history, I don't care much for you, either.
Oh wow, the perpetually-online militant fuckwit read my comments, that's just terrifying!
Anyways.
K while everyone else at the adult table discusses things you can play with your imaginary options.
Every country kills innocent people. It happens.
Thanks. As I said to the commenter above. We are sitting at the adult table. Come join us once you realize everyone has blood on their hands and the world isn’t black and white.
Who genocided your tact and reasoning skills?
Genocide is not a necessity, but it is an ongoing reality. The only feasible choices we as americans have at the present moment is Trump the genocide accelerationist, and Harris the genocide status quo and even reduction, ideally continuing the slow rolling supplies policy Biden has adopted and furthering that policy to slow the movement of weapons into israel. At the end of the day Netanyahu is the one actively waging genocide, and getting funding and weaponry from a wide number of countries. I would much prefer is we completely stopped sending weapons to Israel, but unfortunately thata not how internationally binding treaties work.
I did not state genocide is a necessity.
Where is yours?
Oh, you aren't sorry about the war crimes your government has accomplished?
Typical.
Every country kills innocent people. It happens.
Thanks for admitting this.
imaginary options.
Not respecting a human world which purposefully kills the innocent is not 'imaginary'.
Not even trying to minimize the amount of killing in the human world because it won't reach 0 seems like you don't actually care about human life at all.
That's interesting. I have to support a party which supports killing innocent people to be against killing innocent people.
Wow, humans sure are good at rationalising things in a nonsensical way. No wonder they've made such a fucked up world.
That's not what I'm saying. You can absolutely continue to condemn and fight the democratic party on any topic you deem worthwhile.
But putting that tiny mark on the ballot paper might ever so slightly get the world moving closer to the ideal you imagine, instead of veering away from it.
That is the rationale I'm using here.
Voting doesn't mean you support them.
You aren't giving them money, you aren't campaigning for them. You are saying that between these two, admittedly fucked up, parties this is the one you think that will be better.
So for the presidential election, vote to reduce harm - not to increase it.
If you want to do better, support, fund, campaign for third parties down line. Local elections and build the momentum until they become a viable presidential candidate. Work to reform the electoral system that can dismantle the two party system.
But don't think voting for Harris is de facto supporting the Democratic party.
So for the presidential election, vote to reduce harm - not to increase it.
Then give me a party which does not allow harm to be done to the innocent. I will gladly vote for them.
Voting doesn’t mean you support them.
Ah, so someone could vote for Trump, but then say "I didn't vote for Trump because I support him." Does that make sense to you?
Thinking killing is wrong is not ignorant. Deliberately ignoring the point is ignorant. If Harris loses Trump wins, and if Trump wins things will be a lot worse for Palestine. Refusing to help because you're standing on an imaginary moral high ground is both wrong AND ignorant, because you're clearly smart enough to look beyond your own righteousness. You have no excuse.
Refusing to help because you’re standing on an imaginary moral high ground
How do you want me to help?
Assuming you are actually an American citizen: you vote for Kamala Harris.
If Kamala Harris wins, and innocent people still die from state terrorism, what next?
Then we hold our politicians accountable? Because we still can? Because we still have a functioning Republic, and not a fucking Autocracy?
You've done the dark calculus and made a strategic vote, its doesn't mean you endorse everything Kamala does.
The reality is Kamala will likely be more amenable to pressure here than the Trump. At worst you've protected the small number of palestinian refugees to the US from further persecution. At best you create a lasting problem for Netanyahu by electing people who aren't cheerleading the genocide.
Help elect Kamala Harris by voting for her.
I can't, that would be illegal.
Stay out of our politics.
