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Why are neurotypicals in charge of making up the social rules? They're not even very good at it.

Edit: A few people have interpreted the title as serious, so I wanna clarify that it was meant as a sarcastic joke about how little sense the neurotypical world makes to me, but it is still legitimately me asking for help understanding said neurotypical world.

Was having a conversation with a friend today about why I seem unapproachable to people online. Apparently it's for 2 reasons.

One is that I say "K." all the time, as a short way of saying okay. She pointed out that most people find this rude and offensive. This kinda baffled me, because like why? She explained that like, if somebody were to give a long emotional speech and I just responded "K." that would be offensive. That confounds me. So it's rude in one context, and neurotypicals have decided to be offended by it in all contexts? But the reason it's rude is what confuses me more. Apparently it's considered lazy because you could have just typed out the word, but like, that applies to all text speech and nobody's mad about people shortening those words.

But it got more confusing when she explained the second reason, which is that I end all of my sentences with proper punctuation, which she said "makes people feel like I'm done with the conversation and not interested." But just a second ago improper grammar was rude, and now proper grammar is rude instead.

It baffles me. You can't just use proper or improper grammar. Use too much improper grammar and you're lazy and rude. Use too little and you're also rude. But you can't just use any improper grammar, you have to use the very specific subset of improper grammar that's been deemed acceptable and not lazy (even though it's exactly as lazy as what they do consider lazy.)

To be clear, I'm not bitter, and I'm definitely gonna adjust my behavior to hopefully seem a little less rude to people. I think that's just a nice thing to do. I just find the neurotypical mind utterly fascinating. I don't think they even realize how many contradictions exist in the social rules they all so easily accept.

81 comments

  • I'm not sure how helpful this will be, but I think it is misleading for you to think of these things as "rules". Calling them rules implies that people know what they are, and try to abide by them. But I don't think thats whats happening.

    Since written communication conveys so much less emotion than verbal communication, people tend to read more into the textual form to infer things like emotion or intent. There aren't specific rules for this, people just pick up on patterns. For example angry or excited people tend to use capitals to "sound louder". People talking casually tend to leave out some grammar. Friendly conversations tend to have more long rambling sentences, as opposed to someone trying to prove a point with concise, well punctuated sentences.

    So I think what NTs are doing is just subconsciously figuring out these patterns to determine a likely emotion/intent behind messages.

    To me, "K" isn't rude for the reasons your friend tried to list, but it does sound "colder" to me, probably because my brain sees a pattern where the people who are not interested in talking to me will tend to use short succinct responses, while people happy to talk will use longer form.

    But a huge part of communication, especially online, is just getting used to the people you talk to. It's happened many times that someone who seemed grumpy to me at first turned out to be very friendly, etc.

  • Alright. That’s bullshit. Not entirely. But it’s riddled with it. The “k” part, I understand. This can be considered rude and to be honest, it’s my way of saying “whatever dude”.

    BUT that’s how I use it. I have met people who use it as a lazy but friendly way of “alright, got it”. So it depends on who uses it and what its intention is supposed to be. You either have to be incredibly nuanced or have to know the person who is using it to properly interpret it. Which your friend kinda doesn’t. I’m not blaming her. I fail at it way too often myself.

    The “ending a sentence with a period” on the other hand? My answer would have been “Are you high?!” Seriously, it doesn’t make any sense and it sounds made up.

    Edit: Thinking about this makes me even angry ffs.

    • The “ending a sentence with a period” on the other hand? My answer would have been “Are you high?!” Seriously, it doesn’t make any sense and it sounds made up.

      I used to find it rude when someone ended a text message (specifically on IM platforms) with a period, though ever since some older relatives started texting I got used to it. I can also remember at least one time I ended a text message with a period because I was angry. This is also something I've noticed other people do.

      In a way, since a text message already has a definitive end point, ending it with a period feels redundant. To me, this makes a period at the end almost feel like a "weak" exclamation mark.

      In general I've noticed people use as little punctuation as possible when texting, instead breaking up longer thoughts into multiple short texts to compensate.

    • It baffled me too, but people have legit complained about this stuff to her and she's had to explain to them that I just talk like that. She has no expectation of me to change at all because she already understands my intentions perfectly well, but she told me simply because she felt I should know people were complaining.
      As far as the period thing, apparently it's the last sentence I'm supposed to leave punctuation off of. I don't get it tbh. I mostly talk to people in MMOs and over Discord and apparently when I add a period to the end of the last sentence it makes people feel like I'm trying to end the conversation. It makes sense to me that people think that, given that every time I did it they'd just stop talking, but why they think that is a mystery to me. She said she thinks it's because they're just not used to it.

      • So it seems to be some sort of linguistic peculiarity in that specific group. MMO players tend to be relatively sheltered, so it could have formed organically? This makes sense to me. It’s unlikely, but it sounds better than “let’s make shit up and fuck with him”.

        I don’t know how I would handle this. Most people I play with online are even deeper in the spectrum than I am. Do me a favour, the next time they have an conversation, just throw a single punctuation in the chat and see how they react.

  • Communication is a two way street. It's both about the message the sender is trying to convey, but also the way the receiver interprets it. As a (mostly) neurotypical thinker, this is even hard for many of us to get right.

    An example for clarity is the response your getting in the comments to your friends comments. Various people are disagreeing and agreeing to different levels. Conversation is navigating the complicated dynamics to as the sender, sending your message in a way the receiver will get the impression you are trying to give, and as a receiver, trying to understand the intent of the message the sender is trying to show.

    There aren't many hard or fast rules. In different online communities, different styles and patterns can conotate different things. There are patterns and styles I use here on Lemmy for example, I would never use in a sports online community because they would be interpreted differently there.

    My advice is don't beat yourself up about it. If you're not getting the type of interactions you're expecting in a particular community, that might be the time to ask for feedback or see if your communication style is different than the local group there. But the ephemeral nature of these online conversations make it the perfect place to experiment and find a communication style that works for you and gets the response from others you are looking for.

  • You already have a bunch of discussion on how "k" can seem dismissive as it's the lowest effort affirmative reply possible, but I'd add that "K." can seem worse, because it's the same message with more effort - if everyone has understood/assumed that "k" is the lowest effort/energy communication, capitalizing and punctuating it indicates that you do have the extra energy, you just choose to spend that energy on emphasizing the dismissive response, rather than on using a different one. It has the same connotations, but more emphatically and more intentionally (or, that's how it comes across).

    I also think in general taking the effort to use correct punctuation and grammar seems more formal, less natural, and hence more emotionally distant. It can also seem more emphatic or assertive, like by using more correct grammar/punctuation than everyone else, you're positioning yourself as generally more "correct" than they are. The combination of emotional distance and implicit high ground can come across as a bit hostile, or at least standoffish.

    The reverse could also be true - if you were in a culture or context where everyone else was using correct grammar and punctuation and you weren't, it could come across as implying that they're not worth caring about. For example, in work communications, or maybe when talking to members of an older generation or people from a country that uses more formal language.

    In general, probably the smoothest approach would be to observe how others in a given circle communicate, and try to match their level of formality. I guess this is basically masking. If you'd rather not change how you communicate to fit in, you could explicitly discuss this with people - essentially say, "hey, I'm aware that my natural style is different from yours, and I want to be clear that this isn't indicative of my emotional state, or attitude to you, or any intended tone, this is just my natural baseline".

    At the end of the day the options will always be a) mask, b) be awkwardly explicit, or c) get used to being misunderstood.

    ... this was really meant to be a quick addition about the difference between "k" and "K." but sometimes my comments turn into essays for no good reason. Hope something in here was useful anyway.

  • I'm with you on the punctuation. The k bit I think is about showing you are putting effort in to understand and care, so something slightly longer like "k... I understand" or some extra acknowledgement that shows you understand and have taken the time to take it in helps. Personally, I have a big thing about miscommunication, so knowing people have understood me and listened actively is huge to me. "K." does not express much of anything other than "I saw there was a message", so I'd want to push to check that I've actually been heard.

    Hope that makes sense.

    • The spelling thing bothers me a lot. I don't want to catch bad habits of writing shitty just because it's whatever seems trendy at the moment.

      People used to give me shit for not using smileys, so I started adding :) everywhere in text messages. Then people told me I seem passive aggressive because I use :) instead of emojis.

      Joke's on them. I could never be arsed to use emojis outside of very specific contexts, and now gen Zs are making fun of them for looking like boomers with their dumb emoji use. Apparently I still come across as passive aggressive though.

      • I never use emojis either, except specific ones for specific contexts (I.E. the hug emoji when somebody's having a really bad day.) People have pointed it out, but unlike other things people just view it as an interesting personality quirk of mine instead of off putting.

  • As far as I know, I am neurotypical, so mind that when reading my comment.

    Regarding the title of your question:
    Because neurotypicals are the majority of people. As usual, majorities set norms and actively or passively decide upon common concepts like ethical or societal rules.

    Regarding the issue you described:
    Even though it might seem exhausting, I think it's important to see people – regardless whether neurotypical or not – not as a homogeneous mass but as a highly variable mixture.

    Sure, even then there are common rules like don't punch people. But those are the broad and general ground rules.

    Then, there are the nuances, which can be highly individual.

    In your example, regarding the punctuation, use of grammar as well as verbosity of replies, I would react completely different than your friend. I wouldn't mind any of those things, which seemed rude to her. Okay, maybe I would feel like I weren't given the attention I hoped for if, after pouring my heart out, I just get a simple "K." as response. That would make me sad, because I was hoping for compassion and a dialouge dealing with the issue.
    But apart from such things, that would probably be totally fine for me.

    One behaviour and two very different reactions due to two different people.
    As such nuances are often individual, it's probably best to explore what kind of behaviour the other person would feel comfortable with and with which behaviour they don't. Repeat that process with everyone in your life, who you would also like to keep relations to.

    That's also related to a thing known as role-behaviour in psychology, which also applies to neurotypicals. When I talk to my superior at work, I behave differently than when I am at home with my wife. Then, I also behave differently with my friends. And among the friends, I learned enough about some, to know what and how I can say something to them and from which topics or phrasings it's probably best to steer away.

    • That's good advice, but it's also worth noting that my initial strategy was to try to hold of on saying anything at all that could be offensive until I learned what's okay and what's not, but that too ended up offending some people. The reason being that I would get close to people, but they would get closer to me faster than I was getting closer to them due to me still being overly cautious and trying to find the proper things I was allowed to say and do with them. That's partially what this is about. Trying to find the starting line so I know what's not gonna drive people away immediately.
      For instance, while it's true a lot of people won't be offended by "K." or proper punctuation, I feel like in most casual contexts, people are much less likely to be offended if I don't do those things, which gives me time to get closer to people and learn more instead of driving a sizable portion away right off the bat.
      Another piece of advice this friend gave me was to ask more questions. I always knew that was a good thing to do, but I was always worried people would see me as nosy if I asked the wrong ones. I learned from her that people are generally more happy by me showing interest than they'd be upset by me accidentally asking something personal.
      That and the advice I've gotten in this thread has been really helpful so far. Already people are being a lot friendlier toward me, although it's gonna take a bit to change the general public opinion of me.

  • I hope I won't be too long on the topic. This is an historical question.

    Why it's like this, why are NTs deciding for us? It began in the Renaissance period with René Descartes. He was a philosophe and saw the human body as a machine. He wrote about this vision of the human. Each organ, muscle, bones are a piece of the machine. He did a direct comparison between the human and the material.

    Later in the first half of the 19th century, an astronomer, and statistician had the idea to use statistics for human. Prior, statistic were in majority an instrument used for astronomy. Adolphe Quételet studied Scottish soldiers to make statistics of the human. He went further and did not only statistics on the body. He did statistics about injuries, body, and a lot more. With all of this, Quételet invented the average person. Without statistics, you can't have an average person. This idea is important for the following. It's also the key idea at the beginning of eugenic.

    Someone was very interested in this topic. At the point, he coined the word “eugenic” itself. Francis Galton was the half-cousin of Charles Darwin. He came from a wealthy family and really like the work of his half-cousin on evolution. But, Galton wanted to apply it to society. He was also inspired by the concept of the average person of Quételet. Galton diverges of both of his predecessors. For Galton, the average person was not the person in the middle. No, it was the person at the bottom. There is a shift down compared to Quételet.

    The poorer, the people without education, disabled, slaves, race shouldn't be considered with Galton. There were just this average for the one able to work and earn what they need to survive. The others were not even at the bottom of the social ladder.

    People with education, wealthy people, were of course at the top of this ladder. Galton also believed in birth control based on the assumption of the categorization of the human. Wealthy should reproduce as their genetic was better.

    On this base, Galton developed a lot of theories that we still use nowadays, and in particular in psychology and psychiatry. But, his ideas in pathology survived.

    More general, some of his ideas and theories are still around. Eugenic was very popular at the beginning of the 20th century – Galton began his work at the second half of the 19th century. People founded during this time eugenic society, university cursus, etc.

    With WWII, eugenic fall in disgrace. People working in the field made a shift in their career. They went to psychology, psychiatry, philosophy, sociology, anthropology…

    In the 50s and later in the 60s and 70s, a new movement emerged with anti-psychiatry. In this ideology, you will find many points of view. They had and have in common that we should not intern people that aren't the average person, in other words the norm. Yes, the average person of Galton became a norm. If people are disabled, they don't produce anything and aren't included in the norm. They interned these unproductive people. Some went against it.

    But, in one side of anti-psychiatry, you had people who think that people with psyachiatric issues were faking it. The idea is that people are lazy and invented their illness, condition, difference to do nothing. These people in anti-psychiatry wanted to close the asylums, so people will have to work. Spoiler alert: It didn't work, and people ended on the street or in jail.

    But, all these people thinking people were lazy were in the normal at least. This scheme continued to today, and we end with NTs in charge of deciding...

    I can only recommend the read of the book “Empire of Normality; Neurodiversity and Capitalism”, by Robert Chapman.

  • They are not in charge. It's just that autistic people sometimes take non-critically not even what they are told, but the situation and the emotion as something normal, because that other person is more social and knows how it is.

    The rules are different for every tone, discourse, context, etc. Adjusting for one of them won't do much good even.

    You won't ever lift the weight of adjusting yourself for such expectations well enough. Putting more trust in your own perception of what's rude and what isn't is the only way to deal with it.

    I mean, probably a therapist would say that. Still ask your therapist and not Lemmy.

    • I mean, probably a therapist would say that. Still ask your therapist and not Lemmy.

      The funny part is I asked here specifically because I was directed to by a psychiatrist. They thought the best people to ask would be other people with autism who've already learned better how to interact because they'll understand what I need to hear better.
      She also told me to consult the friend mentioned in my post, which is how that conversation started.
      The reason I'm trying so hard to understand is because I keep having mental health crises over my inability to communicate and the fact that I have a habit of making people really mad and not knowing why or what I did to cause it. Being not only an outcast but having everyone hate me and not just imagining that is very stressful.
      Trusting myself to know what's rude doesn't work. I piss people off extremely easily and don't even notice I did until they're refusing to speak to me.

      • I have the same problem.

        When a conflict arises, just tell them what you think about it and that they are assholes both for deciding to be offended without asking you and for thinking that their idea of being nice is the only right one. Be more aggressive and open about what you think both when behaving like you do and when evaluating their response and opinions on that. And don't ask, beg or otherwise put yourself in a dependent\lower position.

        Some of those people will get pissed off even more, because they were consciously abusing this, to be honest. Like with bullying at school, liking it that you're "wrong" and they are "normal". And if you feel yourself cut off, that succeeded and they are fine with it, and if you don't, they really won't like it. Expect mischief and cowardly shit behind your back from such.

        But some will understand you better and won't make that mistake further. Well, after a few such aggressive actions, because it's not easy to understand immediately. These are much more numerous than you'd think.

        Never try to track your own reactions, "mistakes" and correct for those. You'll get overloaded with depressive thoughts and indecisiveness.

        Those people are smart enough to understand what is what. Some of them will if given better context, which I called aggressive. And some of them are consciously attacking you because they can.

  • Use too much improper grammar and you're lazy and rude. Use too little and you're also rude.

    Genuinely not sure what you mean by this.

    It's rude to use "too little" improper grammar?

    Where are you getting that from?

    But to your main point:

    Why are neurotypicals in charge of making up the social rules?

    Why are you under the assumption that the social rules are something they all got together and agreed upon?

    Social rules form over time in cultures, based on the interactions of individuals. It's part of the social zeitgeist. Neurotypical people make up the majority, they do the most social interaction, so the overall "rules" are formed by them.

    • As far as the first thing goes, I used to avoid using any text speech at all, only used proper punctuation, always made sure my grammar was right. People started to get really annoyed with me because of it, telling me I was being overly formal.
      As far as the second thing goes, that was a sarcastic joke about how the "rules" I'm told to follow are always full of contradictions, making them hard to follow. The joke being if autistics made the rules they'd be actual rules, and efficient ones. I'm well aware of why it's not actually that way.

  • There are no official rules, we NT just kinda feel it, like a sixth sense and so because we are the majority and we share this ability no one is even aware of it consciously. How can you describe a sight to a blind person? It’s difficult at best and impossible at worst. It’s like an instinct. We can describe it logically but it will always be imperfect and not feasible at times

81 comments