There's another layer here. The DM has full control of the story, there was nothing stopping him from making the occupied people as immoral and the occupiers as righteous as possible.
Meaning zionist fucks have such a warped sense of morality that they can't convince people in a reality they made up.
I think there's another layer at work here. Zionists want to believe they still have their humanity and aren't just fascist husks. By benevolently not making their Palistinian proxies a totally racist caricature they jerk themselves off at how fully they are interacting with the "complexity" of the situation. The Last Of Us Part II approach.
I feel like I can easily imagine how the guy might try and concoct a leading situation, but the end goal just comes back to heroic characters ultimately being like "We're not helping your nation do a genocide":
Basically a race of high elves wanting to have a homeland of their own, so they're leaving the Western nations of man to go live far to the South (Israel is just basically South of Europe), in lands their people occupied 3,000 years ago (modern Zionists most likely won't parrot Herzl's open call to colonize). The problem? The land already contains (apologies for what may seem racist; the point is this is how the DM might try and manufacture consent) goblins and orcs who've resided in these lands for the last 1,000 years. They need the players to basically wipe out the inhabitants or terrorize them into leaving so they can begin moving their people from the Western nations to this location. Also the surrounding nations are made up of orcs and goblins, and when this genocide kicks off, they attack and somehow they're the bad guys for trying to intervene in a genocide.
Also a council of lords in the Western nations decided all on their own that this land will go to the high elves, so clearly the land belongs to the high elves. All the races of men and the high elves from the Western nations are clearly the good guys here. Also there are other elves living in these Southern lands, but apparently despite being elves they're barbarians, so the high elves will have to teach them civilization and love of
EuropeanWestern nations of man's arts and music and how to eat like them (apparently European Zionists looked down on Arab Jews as being uncivilized/mentally inferior/barbaric because they wore flipflops, ate with their hands and had no idea or interest in European culture; because there's no escaping the horrific racism of colonialism). Also the enlightened races of men from the West committed a genocide against the high elves so clearly the races of the South owed them territory; it's just basic logic.You might be right and I can't tell whether such performative tolerance (couldn't find a better antonym to bigotry) is better or worse than mere moral deficiency.
imagine being a DM with the advantage of being the fucking DM, and trying to pull this shit, and still having to quit because you can't accomplish your fucking twisted bullshit. lol. fuck you israel
lmao I’d love to watch a campaign like that. The party consistently doing the right thing while the DM just seethes more and more.
It might be fun to watch but in my experience if the players and the DM are that out of sync its gonna be a bad experience for everyone playing cause at some point the DM is gonna be forced to railroad you back on track if only cause they don't have any material in the direction you want to go. The best games and DMs I have are basically more complicated versions of "Yes And".
The best games and DMs I have are basically more complicated versions of "Yes And".
DnD with no character sheets is my favorite way to get kids into TTRPG's. Make it all up as you go along. Roll with whatever stupid bullshit they come up with, and throw something even stupider back at them. Write it all down. THEN we make the character sheets, after a couple sessions.
e: Anyway, this is why one of my son's friends mains a wizard with tons of air magic. Because he's a fart wizard.
Players consistently rolling
on being based checks while the Zionist prick seethes is just so funnyi had a DM boot me from a campaign for 'being manipulative' and 'murder hoboing' after i kept killing blatantly racist nazi characters that our multicultural nation was fighting to survive genocide against. said that i didnt ever give the DM time to roleplay things (because i would gat the nazis in the head with a critfish build). maybe make less cartoonishly evil characters? why would i ever talk to a guy that kills babies
i also unknowingly joined a campaign where the dm admitted that all the goblins the players were killing were jews after i pressed him on his monologue about goblin bankers
goblin bankers
Harry Potter, not even once.
said that i didnt ever give the DM time to roleplay things (because i would gat the nazis in the head with a critfish build). maybe make less cartoonishly evil characters? why would i ever talk to a guy that kills babies
Or if you have cartoonishly evil characters they need to be in an environment where the player can not get away with killing them. There's a reason all the nobility live in a walled quarter of the city with its own defences.
tbf we did a guerilla raid on the walled quarter and created an inferno centered on the guy's mansion after slaughtering a veritable army of nazi minions (which were overleveled, but we persevered through hit and run tactics, lmao)
we were just too cool for the dm i guess
I read a criticism of 'come and see' that I'd never considered, that it was quite liberal. They pointed out how (in the movie) the partisans struggled internally with flat out killing the nazis, and how Flyora while shooting at a picture (hallucination?) of Hitler kept seeing him get younger and younger until he was staring at Baby Hitler and he couldn't pull the trigger.
The poster was saying that it's okay to just flat out kill literal nazis and it shouldn't be causing any internal struggle as they're literally wiping you out, and picturing Hitler as a baby is stupid as you can't time travel and he's not a baby while he's conducting a genocide.
With that first paragraph, at least, I get where they're coming from but I feel like it's likely that they've never actually killed somebody. Yes, it's morally acceptable and good to kill Nazis, and also taking a life is a thing that sticks with you in ways you don't expect (from what I've heard; I've never killed anybody either). I just feel like that's a weird thing to criticize the film for. I really doubt anybody goes away from Come And See believing that killing Nazis is wrong or bad, just that war is hell.
I could be totally off-base here; I haven't see the film in a long time. But that criticism just strikes me as not really warranted
I can picture it now
He was probably like
You have to enforce the status quo, they're feeble savages!And the players were like
No, we will shatter their chains and free them from the yoke of tyrannyThe first thing every DM learns is that the group will never do what you want them to.
DM: "You see a music festival outside the concentration camp."
Player: "I roll for initiative."
DM: "Against the enemies in the concentration camp right?"
Players: "..."
DM: "Against the unarmed goblins inside the concentration camp... Right?"
Based but which player "rolls for initative" on their own? How the fuck does that even work when the DM hasn't even declared start of combat?
Works fine as a declaration of intent, same as "I attack them", it's just acknowledging how attacking someone functions within the rules of the game.
It's also funny, because said DMs set themselves up to make the anti-semitism allegations as unconvincing as possible, because the players had no idea who the groups were based on.
my first time playing a ttrpg was a very odd pathfinder campaign about escaping a slave plantation. this was in kentucky so the vibes were off. whole thing ended up sideways when the dm that cooked that up couldn't stop getting too hammered for us to make progress.
Ahahah holy shit
So it was a Star Wars tabletop right? Lmao
I believe it because whoever that guy is did this with the whole of Last of us 2.
Neil Druckmann moment.
Common Zionist L
It would be funny if the DM thought the problem was that they didn't make it obvious enough the Israel analogy was meant to be Israel, so they try to make it more obvious, but then the players think the DM is a neo-nazi doing a Jewish conspiracy allegory.
It's not as if they're terribly different, even the distinction that the DM is a zionist wouldn't change a lot. Their views on the Holocaust are practically the same as neo-nazis. Consider how many zionists
- Ignore the non-jewish victims of the Holocaust, some 11 million people
- Try to minimise the numbers, claim they're exaggerated
- Look down on Holocaust victims, see them as weak
and that's not even taking into account what they say in the comfort of their homes. Just speaking or writing in Hebrew, even in the most public of settings, they immediately reveal their thirst for blood.
I love this stuff. One of my favorite sessions of D&D ever was when I was running the classic three parter The Desert of Desolation, and in the second part of that trilogy there's a bit where the players are looking for a missing princess and one of their leads is a group of Drow slavers operating under the city, and of course the instant the players learned that there were slavers they dropped everything to crush them and free the slaves. I was so proud.
I bet some of those players are still here, actually. We should play again.
lol. Slavers you say?
cause all I heard was free xp and loot
what do you expect from a hobby invented by white boys with literal 'race' mechanics that determine your objective 'alignment' in older editions and still play into racial caricatures to this day ('noble savage' orcs instead of just murdering hordes, elves as even special-er white people) and even in the best case scenario only encourage race-based divisions whether based on stats or just aesthetic, after all its a lot more reasonable to be 'racist' against a species of literal giant green monsters with boar tusks (that even if a 'good guy' is constantly being whispered to by their Evil God that created them, in most DnD lore at least) than it is to be racist against a human with more melanin in their skin. and the usual semi-historical settings come pre-baked with implicit old-timey attitudes, people expect swords and sorcery type settings to maintain the patriarchy and nationalism pop culture associates with our own history for the most part even if Player Characters are the Special Chosen One that Bucks the Trend. I mean even outside of DnD, how many fantasy media products even cricticise monarchy? how many protagonists are the Rightful Heir that needs to reclaim their Tragically Lost Throne from the Evil Guy?
It takes effort to salvage a worthwhile story out of something like that, and a lot of people just do the easiest/laziest thing and play to the genre tropes. it's hard enough running a tabletop RPG without interrogating the system's racial biases, or that of your own writing, and most people simply won't bother. to the average non-politically aware person, the races become a visual shorthand for real life groups or assumed historical groups, 'elves' are 'cultured europeans' (french, english, etc), 'orcs' are 'misguided savages' at best, 'murdering subhuman invaders' at worst (muslims, mongols, slavic people, etc) 'gnomes' are 'incomprehensible insular artisans' (jews), 'halflings' are 'nomadic pastoralists' (roma) 'dwarves' are 'industrious europeans' (german, irish, etc.). It's obviously not the only way to write fantasy, but for most people this is what 'fantasy' means to them, a bunch of cultural and racial caricatures fighting each other with magic and swords, because its the laziest and easiest to write that way in our society, given the cultural context, genre assumptions, and history of development of the fantasy genre.
what do you expect from a hobby invented by white boys with literal 'race' mechanics that determine your objective 'alignment' in older editions and still play into racial caricatures to this day
to be fair, the entire party was siding with the palestinians like, constantly
Wargaming (which D&D really is, its just pretending to be an RPG) was a mistake. I hate that RPGs have game mechanics and character stats at all.
wargaming could hypothetically be cool in some alternate anti-imperialist timeline where almost any educated person in the west with enough time and resources for it wasn't irrecoverably indoctrinated with fascist neoliberal NATO-ism
it might have issues as the basis of an improvised storytelling-focused enterprise, but Cooler More Complicated Chess is a great idea for an activity, and hypothetically Cooler But Equally Or Less Complicated Chess could be a pretty good improv exercise anyway. I do appreciate rules lite stuff tho, and my favorite system (despite the fact that i have no one irl to play it with) is LANCER which has what i might call 'rules-mid' mecha combat and rules-light options for pilot combat or other dramatic roleplaying moments. it also has mostly 'fluff-neutral' rules and character option descriptions, so your mech (or even your player character) can have whatever limb configuration (if it even has limbs) or whatever weapon mounting style for its equipment as long as it fits within the relatively simple rules.
basically i think the problem is more the west's history of white supremacy, racism, xenophobia, and imperialism, rather than wargaming as a concept
D&D specifically has always been low effort mass market shite, started by just adding Lord of the Rings to a wargame, and expanded by slapping on whatever popular fantasy they can find. The settings largely exist to accomodate very basic stories of goodies and baddies fighting it out without concern for existing in a larger world.
With older editions there were a decent set of mechanics underlying it - not great, but good enough - so you could throw out almost all of the default lore and make a decent setting yourself, but 5e doesn't even have that, so I'll recommend basically any other TTRPG over it.
Torturing the DM is a time-honored practice, this just turns it into praxis
this is the new megathread for the next 15 minutes. if the pixel art in your game isn't better than batman for the NES your shit is doomed.
?
@Goadstool@hexbear.net you are being attacked.
I remember watching Sausage Party, the terrible Seth Rogan movie. At the end it's revealed that the movie is an allegory for the Palestine-Israel conflict lol. I don't remember which side it picked, but the ending was all the food items having sex with each other
It was so fucking insulting. Sasha Baron Cohen levels of shit, unfunny generalisation.
I knew a lot of people that thought of Sasha baron Cohen was the peak of comedy, and at least one styled themselves after him o_O
Can someone explain the "into DnD but also a Zionist" archetype? Why do I keep seeing geeks consuming very-much-not-fascism media, while siding with fascism irl?
There must be a pipeline, it's like the reverse effect of WH40k fandom
Fantasy is heavily pro monarchy. In basically every fantasy setting the king/prince/princess is morally good and want the best for their kingdom and its subjects and outsiders that try to change the status quo are the morally kicking dogs bad people. From there, is easy to slide into fascism.
(Pls keep trans people out of my hobby, because that reminds me of real old stuff) - character portrayed in this
They're tolkien DnD bros. Tolkien's racialising and pro-monarchy fantasy is where their brainworms come from.
Also japanese anime is absolutely riddled with pro-monarchy fantasy.
Their beliefs are all fantasy so they feel right at home in a made up world they get to write the rules for?
Can someone explain the "into DnD but also a Zionist" archetype? Why do I keep seeing geeks consuming very-much-not-fascism media, while siding with fascism irl?
Because they don't care. They do a good job at separating the art from the artist, and at times conflating the art with their own views. It's why a lot of bronies are weirdos and fash adjacent. Fascists think when people complaining about their lack of media literacy think every piece of media is anti-capitalism, but that's not true at all. Sometimes a piece of media is simply making fun of these losers with no deeper message and they still refuse to grasp it because they're unable to comprehend that conservatism doesn't create. At least nothing that's widely consumed nowadays.
Because they don't actually have any consistent belief. They believe that a state where everyone looks the same is needed and the ends justify the means.
Sounds like they found a good group of players.
One time I had an idea for a campaign where the players are goblins in a goblin land under dwarven colonial occupation, never did anything with it but I knew the dwarves would fear and crack down on goblin traditional brewing and alchemy, because the goblin witches can make poison powders and liquids that sink effortlessly between the plates of the heavy armor the dwarves rely on for military supremacy. Only tangentially connected in my mind to Palestine because I didn't really know about it yet, but wanted to share a campaign that never was.
This story sounds implausible. “Saturday Session DM?” Like there are multiple, regularly meeting games?
Pull the other one.
Not that odd; I used to play with a group where three of us were DMs; One guy DMed 4e on Wednesday night games, I DMed Pathfinder Friday nights, and the third guy DMed a 4e LotR game on Monday nights (although I didn't personally play in this one because he was basing it on the Silmarillion and I had no idea who any of the NPCs were; I subbed for another player on the last session and yep, no idea who any of these characters were).
Most of the friends that I have that are into DnD are in at least two games. Some people like doing it more than one night a week and it's hard to find two days out of every week that everybody in the group is cool spending on it.
I like that u/mugrimm still gets posted here, he was an r/cth mod and prolific poster back in the day. Has some DC connections.
We love our prolific feds
