why are incels frowned/hated upon?
why are incels frowned/hated upon?
Obviously I can understand why mysoginists are hated upon, As their belief is all women are trash or men are superior etc. But why are incels also generally hated upon? They are lacking in a way that makes them unable to gey in a relationship, but that shouldn't necessarily mean they are mysoginists, right?
What am I missing here? I haven't ever had a relationship with a woman, but I don't hate all women either. I just consider myself unlucky. Does that make me an incel?
Im pretty sure an incel blames women for not being able to get a relationship.
Its the change in mental framing from "maybe i should work on myself" or "i just havent had the right opportunity" to more of a "women hold too much power over me and are playing with me" or "ive done everything right, women owe me this"Wikipedia sums it up better than i can:
Description of incels
The subculture is often characterized by deep resentment, hatred, hostility, sexual objectification, misogyny, misanthropy, self-pity and self-loathing, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex, blaming of women and the sexually successful for their situation (which is often seen as predetermined due to biological determinism, evolutionary genetics or a rigged game), a sense of futility and nihilism, rape culture, and the endorsement of sexual and nonsexual violence against women and sexually active people.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel
So, unless you find yourself blaming/resenting women, then you arent an incel. Your still just figuring things out like tge rest of us!
The term "Incel" started out as just meaning "involuntarily celibate", referring to men who, like you and I, have struggled to form meaningful relationships with women.
The term actually originated in forums that were used as like a support group for men who were feeling alone, isolated, and alienated.
Unfortunately, if you get enough guys like that together, they might start riling eachother up and convincing each other that it's not their fault, it's the women's fault. Remember, the one common trait among all these guys was a lack of ability to connect with a woman.
"Incel" doesn't just mean someone who is involuntarily celibate.
It's a bit like how "Democrat" doesn't just mean someone who participates in a democracy and "pro-life" doesn't just mean someone who likes life on earth.
Incels are a specific subculture, it has a violent misogynistic ideology and has spawned several mass murderers.
I am in a similar situation as you, I am 36 and have never been in a relationship, I don't blame anyone, I am a bit sad about it when I think of it, but I can't blame anyone for it, it is just circumstances.
I think that "incels" are defined by their feeling that they deserve a relationship with a woman, that they are being denied what they believe is rightfully theirs and that by just being polite they can convince a woman to fall into their arms.
I don't concider myself an incel, for me based on circumstances if anything I have choosen to not persue a relationship, there are reasons for this, late maturity, being overweight, balding, concern for if I would find a woman who would be fine with me having zero experience in both day to day things as well as intimite moments.
But these are all problems that I have to work on, and I do my best with the tools I have.
Does that make me an incel?
Nope, it's become a self identification ascribed to. Only defining feature of an imcel now is saying "I'm an incel"
And it happens to be that said communities are jam packed full of some extreme bigotry, hate, loathing, misogynistic behavior, etc etc.
Which means a person who identifies themselves with that crowd, can be assumed to be of the same cut of cloth.
In other words, a person like you would likely say "I haven't been with a woman but I ain't no incel though", to signal you don't identify with that culture.
Based on that last bit of your post, it sounds like you may actually not be that familiar with the incel community.
Short answer is that it goes much further than it seems at first glance. So,if you're feeling unhappy about your prospects, I'd recommend looking into other communities for the sake of your mental health.
Honestly, just focusing on a hobby of some kind and making connections with the community surrounding it would be infinitely better for you.
The problem is, the word "involuntary" in incel puts the blame on those who won't fuck them. It's not their fault they haven't had sex yet, it's those who keep denying them. This gives them a reason not to have to change their behaviors or thoughts, which keeps them undesirable. That's why they're frowned upon.
No one is entitled to sex. That is not a right anyone has. Thus, the only way to be involuntarily celibate is being force to become a monk under threat or something. The idea that people are entitled to receive the love/sex/intimacy of others is fucked up and betrays the fundamental trust implied by consent. Which is the right of everyone involved to refuse, withdraw, or straight up remove themselves from participating in an intimate situation, at any time, without the need to provide any sort of explanation or justification.
The proposal that these people are entitled to sex gives rapey vibes and naturally generates disgusts in anyone who thinks rationally about the proposition for more than a minute. Because of the implication.
I haven’t ever had a relationship with a woman, but I don’t hate all women either. I just consider myself unlucky. Does that make me an incel?
No, if you don't hate women you're not an incel.
An "incel" is inherently and unavoidably misogynistic. The concept of being "involuntarily" celibate is implying that it is the other woman (or man) at "fault" for not allowing the incel man (or woman) to have sex when the incel very much wants to. Being an "incel" absolves the user of the term of any and all responsibility for their condition and is basically an admission that they will never work to improve themselves or make themselves into an attractive option for their desired mate. It turns their target into a complete sexual object without any other considerations for their own desires.
You can be single and celibate without being an incel. That is just called being single, but open to a relationship or casual sex. It's also called being a normal ass human being who can hold a conversation and develop normal human connections without viewing anyone or everyone as just a slab of meat to be obtained.
You've already had some great answers, but I'll just leave another point here for you to consider - they are literal terrorists.
Not one, but several have used their "inceldom" in their manifestos before going on mass shootings (often targeting, or trying to target women exclusively) and many other shooters were active members of incel forums (and many active incel forum users who still haven't gone on a shooting spree openly talk about going on one).
I will strongly second whenigrowup356 - stay as far away from these people and their spaces as possible, they are toxic violent terrorists, and you should not only not want anything to do with them, but also not let them convince you to feel sorry for them, because as opposed to what they call themselves, the state they are in is anything but "involuntary".
It is generally used to reffer to men who blame women for themselves not being able to get into relationships, not everyone who isn't in a relationship
I think it's important that we define what an incel is first and foremost, because the word has lost a lot of its meaning over the past decade.
Incel is short for 'involuntary celibate', or somebody who hasn't had sexual relations not out of a voluntary vow of abstinence, but rather because mental and/or physical factors have made them into an undesirable partner and have left them feeling shunned by society. This could be things like autism, personality disorders, physical disfigurement or major injury as examples.
Many people in that situation refuse to identify as an incel, because the incel community which several mass shooters like Elliot Rodger came from is deeply misogynistic and talks about women as if they're subhuman. They also idolize mass shooters as heroes. So maybe incel refers to that deeply misogynistic sect of the manosphere.
But more recently, incel has become something of a catch-all insult towards low value misogynistic men. Andrew Tate for example has been branded the 'Incel King' for the views that he preaches, even though 1. unlike an actual incel this guy fucks, and 2. a real incel wouldn't have the charisma to run a MLM scheme, cam girl business and an alleged sex trafficking operation.
There's a crucial distinction between someone that wants to have sex, but cannot, and someone that chooses to identify as that. To really become an "incel" in the negative sense, you lose the desire to have sex because being denied sexual contact by others is part of your identity now.
People that merely don't find others that are sexually interested in them can do things to help themselves, learn better grooming habits, dress nicer, practice approaching and talking to people, etc. Someone that has adopted the identity of "incel" can only help themselves by changing their perception away from the toxic void they found.
There's something very unlikable about anyone who blames all their woes and mishaps on someone else.
For incels it's the women who have ruined society, for MAGAts it's the left, for tankies and left reactionaries it's the libs.
The one true facet stringing them all together is their inability to take personal responsibility for their situations (especially when there is any amount of public scrutiny, pride limits their growth potential).
There are people who can't get laid but who aren't an incel because they don't blame others (especially women) for that.
My perception is that sex-starved males are seen as dangerous, and the fear of that easily translates into a stigma.
I recall my recently-divorced friend (with a young daughter) trying to describe this to me: how almost overnight the girly sleepovers and socials went from common & spread across the homes to "silently forbidden" and unspokenly "anywhere but his house". But he was the same guy as just days before, but (so the theory goes) the only change was that now people "knew" he was not being... pacified?
An incel blames women for their singleness.
There are some amazing people out there who just, for whatever reason, find themselves without a partner. Confidence, mental health, physical health, family commitments, location.
When they seek solice online they find themselves on the fringes of incel communities. However, it doesn't sit right, because they are not incels. They don't hate-blame half the population. They maybe blame themselves, or see the circumstances that led them to their present state before a blanket blame is cast upon a bunch of people they don't know.
While the incel movement may have seemed to be just some men who found community in others who haven't been in a relationship, something rather innocuous. It very quickly got hijacked into what it is today. It went from "I haven't been with a woman yet but I'm still looking and in the mean time i have my friends" to "It's women's fault that I haven't been with one and they use sex for power and are horrible people" and it devolved into worse things from there. The incel community was preyed upon by misogynist far right fascist and nazis. They were assaulted with propaganda in their communities, a place they had finally found that they were comfortable in. And when you are around those you care about, and they start espousing bigoted beliefs, some start to agree with it, and then most of them fall for it. It's not unreasonable to want community. Everyone wants that. But the incel community quickly became a community of people who hated that they were virgins and were willing to take their anger out on others. Particularly women identifying individuals.
You say they are lacking in a way they can't get women, I don't think is wrong. They really haven't been taught well by our society how to interact with women. They're trying to get into a relationship using what they've been taught, but they're floundering, reasonably, because society has taught them to view women as sex objects. Incels as a movement are a failure of our society, a failure of us teaching our kids how to act around others, including the gender they're attracted to.
I'm not nearly read up enough to give you much more information, but if you want, there's a book called Escape from Incel Island by Margaret Killjoy. It's really good and helps explain things far more eloquently and fully than me, a random lemmy user can.
Also, never having been in a relationship doesn't make you an incel, it just makes you someone who hasn't experienced that yet. And that's okay, we all grow at different speeds, it's okay to not having been with someone. We attach way too much to the idea of being with your first person. It's important to be able to respect and care about yourself somewhat before getting in a relationship, and it's okay if that takes a while. I didn't have that experience until my mid 20s, but it didn't make me any less of a person. Just remember to respect yourself, and to respect the others around you. And also don't treat women like sex objects, we are just humans, like any other. And there are 100% multiple people out there who will be interested in you, even if it takes a while to find one. I know you'll find someone, especially considering you're asking this question. You're willing to ask about tough topics and that is something a lot of people can't do. So good on you.
People naturally don't want to think they are the problem. So, they blame society which leads to blaming women which leads to misogyny which leads to the dark side.
People who label themselves as incels are somewhat accepting that the factors that lead them to be incels are unchangeable ( physical characteristics, limiting standards, social deficiencies, bad luck). So they have taken the steps to the dark side. And vocal incels are more often well on that path.
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Originally, the label wasn't bad. However, it turns out a lot of pathetic people out there fall into the same description and suddenly the traits they brought along with them shifted the understanding of the words meaning.
Originally it was simply a way for lonely men to get encouragement from their fellow lonely men, hence the "involuntary" part of it all is that they don't want to be in their situation. However, with the evolution of the term and all the d-bags that jumped on it, it now means something almost completely different—certainly not something involuntary, that's for sure.
Do you call yourself an incel? Do you subscribe to their beliefs that they are entitled to sex and superior to women? Do you blame women for all of your problems? If not then you are not an incel. Just unlucky.
It's the socially-unaware and self-centered worldview. Not much else as all of the symptoms seem to flow from that.
Mostly the murder. Murder is generally frowned upon.
The word was originally coined by a woman to describe her own situation. It got adopted by the manosphere, and then the connotations changed over time to what it is today, which is a slur and a stereotype label.
Sorry if I sound like a pedantic linguist here. But the meanings and usage of words can change over time.
There's a podcast called "Incel" that you might find interesting. It's not my cup of tea, but the host does attempt to form a neutral, high level understanding of the incel subculture.
Explain to me how the basic concept is not misogynistic in itself.
As I've understood it, the idea of the incel movement is that these people deserve to get fucked, by whomever they choose, that they don't have any obligation to change anything about themselves, they are just being treated unfairly.
It ignores the other person completely, they are just some price they deserve, not a living breathing person with their own feelings and preferences.
I realize people have trouble with social interaction, but an interaction with another person is inherently social, no two ways about it.
I feel like the term "Incel" has developed somewhat. I guess in the beginning it was used by men struggeling to get into a relationship to refer to themselves. It was used to find others with the same issues, and form a kind of self help group that could provide comfort and maybe even inprovement. If thats what incels were today, they wouldn't be hated like that. Perhaps they would be belittled or made fun of.
But that's not what we understand incels to be today. Incels now seem to be extremely bitter, delusional, pathetic individuals. They don't recognize the issue lies with themselves, instead it's supposedly the fault of the women, who won't accept their place in society. In the mind of an incel, they deserve to have sex, and that means that it should be a woman's duty to please them.
So no, you are probably not an incel, even if perhaps you would have been under the original definition.
TL;DR:
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Misogyny. Inherently hating half the world's population is not going to win you many friends.
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prone to violence. Because male-on-female DV isn't bad enough, why not add literal terrorism to the mix?
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I'm sure there is a load of political world-building around it in little corners of the internet but for most people 'incel' is a just a byword for a creepy and desperate guy. If you're creepy and desperate you are therefore an incel. You're saying you're not like that though, so you must not be an incel. It takes a lot of effort as a young man to maintain an immaculate record of never being horny and lecherous, so you might actually be an incel sometimes too. My advice as an older guy is to just not worry about it. I see a lot of young guys on the internet worrying about never getting a girlfriend and blaming themselves. Just be patient and nice to girls and eventually you will get into a relationship. It is basically that simple.
they're just insufferable. the problem isn't the situation. it's the mindset they develop.
it basically becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for them. they can't get a woman, they develop unhealthy views, related to self-entitlement, and they become walking red flags to normal, adjusted individuals, which drives their isolation, and then feeds into what they think always happens.
a defeatist attitude never gets anything done. being a person is, in part, about self improvement.
if your skills won't get you hired for a job, you need to improve your skills. dating and having successful relationships is not much different. the problem with many incels is that they improve all these other aspects of their life (job, property, car), and then can't understand why the other sex doesn't flock to them. they fail to realize that hitting all these various metrics is just a part of the equation, but not the whole she-bang.
if you haven't had a relationship, maybe you haven't had the right circumstances, or met the right person. the trick is to understand not to necessarily take that personally, as recursive as that sounds.
But why are incels also generally hated upon?
Your previous sentence answered your question.
Their belief is all women are trash or men are superior.
There is nothing wrong with being an adult and not being sexually active.
Making your sexual situation become your whole personality and using the obvious regret they feel about it as a springboard to justify hate against others is not.
Stereotypes. That's basically it. The way they go about their dilemmas has left an impression, which isn't unique in the slightest among subgroups of humanity. Especially as an asexual woman, I've had bad encounters with some, and although I recognize not all of them are guilty of anything, the ones that do make things difficult cloud the identity.
That itself would be enough of an issue, but then along comes Jordan Peterson. He is the choice idol of the majority of incels, and he uses this power and esteem imposingly. Without saying it explicitly, he encourages the idea that physical fun time is a human right to receive and a duty for all peoples to give. They cite him frequently and such ideas have shimmied us into a world where asexuality is somehow uncanon in reality, when it shouldn't be hard simply to have a bit of voluntaryism.
Because people who give themselves that label identify themselves with a community that openly spreads hatred and bigotry.
Does that make me an incel?
No, not unless you approve of that community and want to be part of it.
Go on any incel echo chamber and you'll know.
I think theres what the word actually means, and then theres the stereotyped version that maybe has more power, ie angry about being celebate, poor mental health, usually hates women because of it.
Perhaps involuntarily celebate and incel mean slightly different things to each other by now.
Incel is a shit person who is unable to have romantic relationships with women and blames/hates them for that. They also tend to hate men who are successful in that regard. They are simply toxic squiggly emo worms.
the internet is a dumping ground for suppressed frustration
Because people mostly know about the vocal minority that posts a lot of hateful content, presumably mostly for attention. This is exacerbated by the just world fallacy — people want to believe that if someone is unhappy, they must have done something bad to deserve it.
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The word incel has evolved beyond its literal meaning to refer to a specific subset of people.
Also I may be wrong here - but I think the term originated as a self-designation by a group of openly misogynist men? So even when the term originated it would have had that connotation.
Either way, there's a big difference between someone who can't get laid an an incel, even if the terms don't reflect that difference.
Ah, I miss the good old days of r/incelwithouthate. The perfect site for a subhuman like me without the possible terrorism.
Denying oneself sex is an unhealthy practice for mind and body. They are sick people and need help. That’s it. To have a conversation beyond help is just ignoring the obvious and denying treatment. The misogyny is just poor mental health and lack of understanding about women and generally themselves. They’re just mentally and physically ill and refuse help.
Because people like to hate. The internet, 'tis a silly place. I recommend ignoring.