A study on tech literacy

I'm currently training a new employee who comes from the "My school handed out Chromebooks" generation, and hol...eee...shit... Its frustrating as hell.
Literally every single instruction gets followed up with "no...double click"
FML
- I am that generation, but I was blessed enough (not dirt poor) to have a family Windows PC at home, and my mom got me a HP laptop later because she knew I was gonna be going to a tech school program in my Junior year, and knew that Chromebooks were dogshit.
  My tech teacher would constantly complain about the kids who had like zero Windows knowledge, and couldn't do shit like open a PDF in word, or simply find the terminal. I knew this shit would happen when I was in school, I literally told my mom that anyone who can't afford a windows device at home is fucked in the work environment. Compounded by the fact most teens are iPhone purists and make fun of Android, they're just too used to "shit just works"
  
  open a PDF in word
  Hmm.
  
  but was blessed enough (not dirt poor) to have a family Windows PC at home
  "Blessed" and "windows" on the same sentence only make sense of there's a fire and you can jump from one.
- Yeah, I'm having a lot of trouble working with younger hires, and I'm not even 30. If I had to summarize, they're able to do things like memorize button combos, but there's just no comprehension about the how the buttons were only pressed to achieve larger goals.
  
  My favorite part is that my older coworkers are still convinced that Gen Z is super computer savvy.
  
  Sounds like my mum. Follows the process without understanding the reason why.
  
  How are they editing videos (even with CapCut)?
- I can sympathize from both directions. Teaching my iPad generation nephew to use a Windows PC is a challenge.
  At the same time I look like a total incompetent when trying to do anything using the GUI on a Mac. My muscle memory is just plain wrong after 20+ years of Windows and assorted Linux variants I keep clicking in completely the wrong places
  
  Over the last 40 years I've used Mac, Windows and various Linux desktops as well as the Atari desktop called GEM (used it in an early music studio), Amiga and BeOS. Probably a few more over the years.
  I always go back to Windows because it has support for pretty much everything I throw at it and the OS isn't as bad as nerds want you to believe. Yeah, it crashes and gets unstable from time to time, but EVERYTHING does.
- I don't get it. There is no double click on chromebooks?
  
  It's there, it's just not necessary for launching an application. It's the same as on Android.
- I wonder if it’s really a computer issue or a more general lack of problem-solving skills. In your 20s you should still easily and quickly be able to switch to any OS and understand the logic. If you don’t the issue is likely not limited to computer-skills.
- Have the exact opposite problem: double clickers are a hell in a web world !

Tbf installing linux is not that hard
- Back in the day when installing Solaris and OpenBSD and such you had to specify in numerical values the number of sectors of hard disk space you wanted to format drives with. Shit is considerably easier now with modern UNIXy systems.
  
  Back in what day? My first Linux was in the early 2000s, and even back then it wasn't any more complicated than a Windows install.
- I've met people that struggle with the concept of shutting a computer down.
  You are 100% overestimating the average non-techy
  
  Watching a millennial (around the same age as myself) simply turn off the monitor when I asked her to restart really put things into perspective for me.
  I don't take any knowledge for granted anymore, all my clients get step-by-step, stupid-proof instructions for even the simplest tasks.
  
  You are assuming they can't when in reality it is more that this is learned helplessness, they have been told over and over that they wouldn't understand anyway so they aren't even trying.
  
  Don’t forget to park the hard drive before you power down.
- Me reinstalling windows for the 3rd time this year cause of some bsod:
  yes
  yes
  yes
  choose language
  partition
  log into forced account
  no to telemetry 20x
  sell your sole, give your personality up for theft to an aI and agree to never sue microsoft in their tos
  reboot
  find some guide on internet to follow step by step while I type commands into 20 different terminals, open 4 different control panels and use regedit to reduce the bloatware and spyware.
  Me installing advanced user linux for the first time after previous process did not fix monster hunter from crashing:
  choose language
  partition
  launch linux for first time
  rpm fusion for nvidia drivers
  reboot
  If I had known linux runs games better I would have switched years ago.
  
  Ok so now you gotta help me figure something out
  Im sort of a hoarder when it comes to my data - as in I don't know what takes up 80% of my storage space but it does.
  And I really want to switch to Linux, but the daunting task of finding where 8+ TB of data needs to go before I install it has slowed me down.
  Actually 8TB isn't that bad thinking about it. Maybe it's just time to find anything I care about and just purge the rest, and start fresh?
- “Do you want to install GRUB on /dev/sda?”
  
  Solved with just one drive.
  I overclomplicate my setup by having like 4 old hard drives of different sizes, cause I hate to throw them out.
- You're right. In fact, I think the easiest OS to install is probably some sort of Linux distro. But most people don't install their OS. And Windows is shipped built-in on many computers (even though we're starting to see some Linux options as well).
  
  I grew up on Windows my entire life, but really only as a user until I got into teenagehood. I still remember when I was 12 and had to reinstall Windows 7, and I was given the option of either x64 or x86. I thought "Oh, my laptop is stupidly old, it's gotta be the lower number" and it took an embarrassing amount of time to then actually try the x86 option which immediately worked.
- Now.
  
  ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯ been quite easy for like a decade at least
- I installed Slackware in ’96.
  Things have most certainly changed.
- Easier than installing any other OS.
  
  I recently had to make a bootable iso for windows for someone in my family and it was a way bigger pain than linux, so.. not wrong lol
  Never tried installing mac so can't say how the experience of that is :3
- At 12 I would still have been too scared of breaking something, which I think is a reasonable fear, at the very least if you're sharing a PC.
  
  At 12 I was too scared of downloading most programs for fear of viruses, if I had been asked to partition a drive I would have cried.
- Even arch was easy back in 2010 as long as you could read the guide.
- When I dual booted Ubuntu about a decade ago it took an afternoon and needed a lot of extra command line stuff to do anything.
  Last night I installed Linux mint and it took about two hours. Most of the time was me rebooting my ancient laptop though.
  On a newer (less worn out) machine I could probably do it notably faster.
  
  Funnily enough I've had the opposite experience: installing Linux on a 12 year old laptop: 30 mins and done, installing windows on the same laptop: 5 and a half hours
- Been a PC/windows user and builder since the 2000s and as someone who doesn’t work in coding or tech. Linux confuses me
  
  I mean.. I don't work in coding or tech either ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯ installing linux is literally just putting an ISO on a USB drive tho

Linux users are inherently more tech savvy because there are no limits. On the contrary, there is documentation and free knowledge aplenty. Windows and especially Mac hide and obfuscate everything happening under the hood and you are vaguely warned away from doing anything not specifically blessed by the corporation. That's why those users are less tech savvy on average.
- Don't jerk yourself off too hard for using linux
  
  Yeah, leave some spunk for the rest of us!
  
  I'll jerk off as hard as I want, thanks.
  
  Using Linux counts as jerking off? You should try talking to a Mac user
  
  It's okay they've built up calluses over the years.
- Just the fact that someone is using Linux at all means they are probably tech savvy, simply for the fact they had to install it in their own. If all prebuilds came with Linux, it would likely be the other way around. (Although why someone would, out of free will, go and install Windows is beyond me)
  
  Interestingly people who learned to use PCs back in the early days most likely installed themselves Windows on their own MS-DOS PCs and probably also upgraded it themselves, whilst Mac users did not.
  Which kinda gives weight to the idea that it's the technical barrier to entry into using a certain OS that makes for tech savvy users of that OS: they had to be tech savvy already (or at least have the mindset of trying stuff out which is IMHO what creates tech savvy users) in order to get that OS running.
  
  ...because it's the easiest OS to install and use?
- Mac use to be much more open and direct about things. Even the pre-unix Macs were more obvious then Windows of the same era. Unix Mac was way, way more adjustable and while it's not system related, shipped with iMovie and other bits of software for creating things.
  Make the study about iPad/mobile computer kids verse desktop kids and you'll see a sharper contrast.
  
  I think that we need convergent offering systems because the Fisher Price nature of mobile operating systems is so unlimited, smartphones aren't even Limited in their Hardware like they were 10 to 15 years ago. Linux funds already exist they're just expensive and usually a bit of respect but there's no reason we can't have the desktop experience on the go. If nothing else you can strap a screen and a battery to a Raspberry Pi and that serves as the proof of concept, now you just make that in an appealing form factor and you're all set
- Linux users are inherently more tech savvy because there are no limits.
  You clearly have not met my parents. I installed Linux on their PC because they are not tech savvy. Doesn't matter if Windows or Linux breaks down, they can't fix it anyway, so might as well reduce the chance they manage to infect their device with all kinds of malware.
  
  I think that's a pretty recent phenomenon and it still requires that there's a good friend or family member who is a Techie to actually happen.
  That said, thinking about your post does bring a whole "chicken and the egg" possibility to mind: are Linux users tech savvy because of the open nature of Linux or are Linux users tech savvy because for most people the technical barrier to entry into running Linux is still high enough that they have to be tech savvy to begin with in order to start running Linux?
  
  Which distro did you install for them? Same ship, and it's sinking :'( They've got an old (2011?) Toshiba Satellite that's on thin ice when Windoze 10 becomes EOL this October. PopOS! or something else?
- I agree there is an obfuscation of what is happening under the hood in Windows and Mac systems- but that doesn't stop the tech savvy from digging a bit further. I played around with resource files back in my System 6, 7, and 8 days, and got pretty comfortable with registry edits from Windows 95 onwards.
  I think it's more that Linux only appeals to the tech savvy, precisely because of the lack of that obfuscation layer.

I grew up with mac, but I was always so frustrated that I couldn't play the games and run the programs my friends could on their computers. I finally bought my own PC in high school, and was so happy to have the control I always wanted. I haven't switched to Linux yet, but at this point it's inevitable; I'm just dragging my feet on figuring it out.
- Download VirtualBox, its free and open source. Download a few Linux isos, actual Linux isos, and fire them up in a VM to see what sticks out to you. People usually recommend Mint As a bridge from Windows, personally I'm liking PopOS a lot more than I thought I would. Both are based on Ubuntu which is ubiquitous. I hear a lot about immutable distros, but I haven't ventured there yet. Point is you can figure it out for free and completely without hassle.
  
  Thanks for the tips! I'll have to check that out.
  
  few Linux isos, actual Linux isos
  like shitpost OSes?
- I installed Linux mint last night and honestly it was a lot easier than I thought. I work on Mac and game on windows usually.
  It took a couple of hours (mainly rebooting my machine over and over because it's so beat up) but the install and documentation held my hand most of the way, and a YouTube video covered the rest.
  Now I get to see how smooth it is to use before I put it on my main machine.
  A lot of people suggest a dual-boot (more technical, but it will run faster than virtualbox) as then you can just reboot the computer and use the windows "half" whenever you need to do something Linux can't handle.
  Just be aware that clicking the wrong button may write over the windows part of your machine. There was a lot of "are you SURE?" confirms first though. If that makes you too nervous, then maybe try virtualbox instead first (as the others suggest).

My father made me figure out how to compile Linux drivers for a modem card before I could have internet.
- Forgot the /s?
  
  Not necessarily. For those who grew up with winmodems it was the reality. Fortunately where I grew up, dsl and more importantly coaxial broadband took off veey early on. Though there were dsl softmodems, these were rare. The difficult part was a windows logon software provided in isp cds. For macos users the isps usually sent IT guys with 'drivers' initially and for linux users they sent IT guys to help install windows. The 'dialing' program did nothing but few http requests but in those days packet capturing was not so easy.
  A friend of mine 'hacked' the isp (weak telnet or ftp) to steal the debug version of said software to figure out the requests in logs. Unfortunately the local isp discovered the 'hack' somehow and found the 'proof' by seeing linux cds on their desk. Isp guys issued a pretty serious warning for their parents that the kid is becoming a hacker/criminal by using linux. This reminds of that famous text.
  
  Perhaps they were provided the driver source on cd. So they had to figure the cd ROM drivers first, which were provided on a floppy disk.
  
  Why? My parents couldn't teach me how to get a modem working, so when we bought a 14k4 modem, I had to install that thing at age 12. Granted, I didn't have to compile them, they came on a floppy, but it wasn't exactly userfriendly
- How that make you feel? I intend to do the same to my kids tbh. Starting with problem solving exercises they're learning at school and make it more advanced as it goes just to unblock the OS. I'm sure eventually I'll need to take matters to a kernel level to be able to keep it going, but I'm fine with that as long as we're all learning.
  
  It was a fun project and we actually did compile everything starting with a boot floppy and RHEL source. Dad did most of the work to start and gradually handed it off to me to get different things working. I had a big binder of documentation to read through, but hese days there are a ton of Linux from scratch tutorials out there to follow.

I started on a Mac and now I'm an IT expert.
But that's because my next computer was a Dell.
- My condolences, on both counts.
  
  Could be worse. Dad had a Gateway desktop. I'm still licking old wounds...
- I started with a DEC Alpha CP/M, then moved to a Macintosh SE. And yes, I do IT. Where does that place me?
  
  Over 40.
- Was it a desktop mac? I feel like only laptop macs should count for the experiment.
  
  Laptops really weren't a thing back then.

Year of birth matters a lot for this experiment.
Macintosh versus some IBM (or clone) running MS DOS is a completely different era than Windows Vista versus PowerPC Macs, which was a completely different era from Windows Store versus Mac App Store versus something like a Chromebook or iPad as a primary computing device.

Run a second correlation on the incomes of these families and the tech literacy of their children and see what you find. I have a hypothesis.
- In my experience kids who had iDevices don't grow up to be tech literate but do have decently off parents.
  I also grew up dirt poor and only had a webTV til I was like... 14. I'm way more tech literate than most it seems.
  
  webTV
  Wasn't that pretty expensive? Or am I thinking of something different?

Looking at the comments, it occurs to me that we're not a representative section of the online community.
Were literally people who went out of their way to not use a conventional/commercial tech product.
I wonder what the % of people on here is who have built a pc, used a raspberry pi or installed Linux compared to the outside world.
- I would bet the number is extremely high. I've done all these things.
  
  Hah, the joke's one you: some of us are too cheap for using a Raspberry Pi and instead use chinese Pi clones!
- I also bet the % is very high.
  I wouldn't even consider myself especially techy compared to Lemmy, but I've done all of those things.
  
  +1 though I feel like I'm more average when it comes techiness (if anyone feels very techy and qualified to host a survey, I'd be interested in average tech experiences here.)
- it occurs to me that we're not a representative section of the online community
  This! I have been preaching this for years, both online and IRL with the IT techs I manage. Tech nerds (myself included) forget just how little the normal person even cares about computers, let alone how they work.
  The vast majority of people just want to buy a computer in a box, and have it work mostly perfectly. Which windows and Mac's do really really well. And yes, windows isnt perfect but neither is Linux. And for 95% of people the most demanding and complicated thing they'll do is web browsing, and power users might do something wild like play games through steam or install an alternate browser.
  And we havent even touched work computers yet, which is a whole other level of "I don't care at all" from end users.
  Remember people "Linux is amazing!" is meaningless to people who have never heard the acronym SSD let alone what it is or why it's better than a HDD.
  I like to compare it to sewing because I genuinely don't care at all about it. But I hear people say "just thrift clothes and tailor them to you!" But that ignores two things.
  I genuinely can't think of a whole lot of other leisure activities I'd want to do less than sewing and tailoring.
  I barely know how to sew a button or mend a rip. Do you think I know how to actually tailor something? Or what types of tools I need? Or how to use them?
  
  Tech nerds (myself included) forget just how little the normal person even cares about computers, let alone how they work.
  Relevant XKCD
- Considering linux, self hosting and open source gets mentioned in every community here... I'd say it's a significant amount
  
  Well, Lemmy is kind of selfhosted itself, sooo...
  
  A big reason I use Lemmy is because I like all the FOSS discussion lmao.

- Is the hypothesis that Windows being constantly broken forces you to learn how to fix it ? Because that’s kinda what happened to me 😆
  I'd add that PCs also had great gaming, which also encourages upgrading, and PCs have always offered more options for upgrading. You learn a lot and can break a lot doing that, both of which add to the experience.
- Same. Got tricked into deleting System32 at age...7 maybe? Started learning a lot from that point on.
- I mean, I managed to fuck up my Windows 95 just by installing a couple of games. God knows how that happened.
  
  I remember!
  My family just got a new computer; running the brand new Win95. It was so fancy, I can't remember what game it was, but I couldn't get the sound to work, so I tried reinstalling the sound drivers....
  I managed to completely nuke our 2 day old PC. Had to get a friend of my stepdad to come and fix it...basically reinstall Windows. I have no idea what I did, but I did learn from that point, you can basically fix anything not hardware related given a bit of time and knowledge.
  And that was my origin story, been using Linux full time since 2007, and dabbled for a few years before that.

I used MacOS for a bit, switched to Windows, then when I was 15 I installed Linux :3
Granted I do very much have autism
- I used MS-DOS as a kid and installed Windows 98 when I was 12. Started to use Linux in my 20s.
  Granted I am old.
  
  Used DOS and an IBM Selectric II in highschool. Installed windows 3.1.1 in college. W95 at my first job. Upgraded to them all to W98, ME, 2000, 7, 8, 10, and 11
  Installed Linux the first time with Unbuntu Warty Warthog. Had the CD mailed to me.
  I still managed to fuck up GRUB today again.... because I'm very talented apparently.

Discluded? Are you sure you don't mean excounted?
- Disclude: To exclude, not include, to remove from inclusion
  
  Well it's not in the Merriam-Webster dictionary, but that's just one source. I assumed they meant "excluded" because I've never seen "discluded" used... Ever?
- No, discounted
  
  oh nice, 20% off

- That game was super fun
- But the time I was ~11 I had built my own computer. Mother was kind enough to take a leap of faith and set a budget for the project. My parents are absolutely not tech people. So they had no idea what I was doing and could offer no assistance other than monetary. It worked out in the end though.
  Same here, I learned by fucking it up and doing it until it worked.

I started on a Mac, and now I live as a nomadic caveman, never contacting the civilized world.

Lemmy Linux bros make me avoid Linux at all costs
- I've been using pop OS for 5 years and barely understand anything at all, we're not all super nerds. I got it to save a bit of upfront money on a new build with the plan to buy windows when I needed it, never needed it.
  
  I’ve been using windows since 3.11 and building my own machines since XP and I have never paid any money for windows lawl
- I enjoyed a lemmy moment in the thread about things the Canadian government needs to do to not be as dependent on the US and the first bullet point in a comment was switch to Linux
  
  a lot of governments did that after the whole thing with Ed Snowden….
  for one: the US puts backdoors in all sorts of software… has been doing it for years….
  for two: software is a pretty big part of how governments do things.
  for three: doesn’t matter until they start making their own microchips….
- Yeah I use Linux but I also hate people who shame people who use windows because it does what they need.
  
  I agree with this sentiment.
  My guess is I'd fit u/but_my_mom_says_im_cool's definition of a "Lemmy Linux bro". I'm that person that responds to any post about bad behavior from Microsoft with some variation of "use Linux".
  But I won't shame any individual for using Windows. That's their choice.
  I'm the Linux/open source/digital privacy person in my friend group. And I'm vocal enough about it that people know this, but I don't shove it down anyone's throat. But I will answer questions and offer suggestions when asked. And I've had some small successes in bringing people around in this way.
  
  I don't think they should be ashamed of using Windows just because it's Windows, I think they should be ashamed for so many other reasons.
  (I mostly use Windows)
  
  I mean if you need some specialized proprietary software they're only runs on Windows that's one thing but we all have some old laptops sitting around that you could throw Linux mint on and be that much closer to freedom
- Keeping you off Linux has been the goal all along
- Cool story....bro
- Letting other people make decisions for you like that is weak-willed. My interest in things is intrinsic and isn't affected by external factors, yours should be too
  
  Yeah that’s what self righteous Linux bros say. If you really believed that, you would be against all the Linux bros trying to convert everyone. I’m happy with my pc experience, im not interested in Jehova… I mean Linux thanks!
- We see ourselves as like Morpheus from The Matrix. we're trying to get people to take the red pill
  
  Kind of a good analogy cause if I lived in the matrix universe i would much prefer to take the blue pill and just stay in the system. I don’t wanna live underground with the filthy survivors!
- True
- I’m a Linux user but some of the people on here make me want to go back to Windows.
  
  What's stopping you? It's a personal choice, pretty much only you cares, you should do what you like.
  I use windons for 35 hours a week and linus for like 5. but i can still pretend i'm a linux user on here and no one gives a fuck..
- I feel the same, I'm genuinely starting to despise Linux users because of this site. Worse than vegans.
  
  Linux bros are like Rick and Morty fans. No matter how much you’re enjoying your pc experience they have to jump in to tell you that you’re wrong and everything that isn’t Linux sucks
  
  What's wrong with vegans?
- Woah, that's crazy
- Yeah, people with a good message that annoy you should be ignored. That's how logic works...
  
  Yeah that snark you’re showing is the kind of thing that makes people ignore your message and makes people annoyed with Linux bros. You’re only playing into the stereotype.
  
  Thanks for proving their point
  
  Seems to be how the world works for sure.

If you've had to mess around with EMM386 and HIMEM settings to play Wing Commander 2, you win.
- Autoexec.bat's and boot disks for everything ftw.
  
  I learnt how to use a custom autoexec.bat that had a menu to select the different memory configs. That was a godsend!
  
  Let me blow your mind.
  People are probably running FreeDOS nowadays though which uses a different syntax.
  
  That knowledge is completely useless now.
- Ahhh happy days and nights.

My family’s first computer was a 68k Mac, specifically a Quadra 605. I tried (and failed) to teach myself C++ using that system at the tender age of 9, but eventually moved over to Windows PCs. Had a Linux-based web server running on spare parts as a teen, though, and did succeed at teaching myself PHP and later Python well enough to hack together my very own blog software. Not very good blog software, mind you, but the critical thing was that it worked! Even spent a few years as and SMB sysadmin even though my degree is in [building] architecture.
Since then I’ve drifted away from the very deep end of tech world, but I would never say that first Macintosh stunted my skill.
(100% autistic tho, so ymmv)

I'm curious what her hypothesis is, I don't think there is a correlation at all personally, seen a ton of people who know nothing about their computers regardless of Mac/Windows as their primary os.

I doubt there would be much difference. I was started on an old brick-style Mac before switching to PC and am now the most technical person in almost any group I enter. It's not as if Mac devices are entirely void of programmers and other technical users.
- Yeah, Apple computers are disproportionately common at tech conferences and meetups.
  
  I'm a backend dev and the last 3 companies I've worked for are exclusively apple only. It feels, to me, like apple took over US tech startups. Obviously pretty poor sample size.
- Well you have access to a lot of the same CLIs that Linux users get, right?
  I'm not a fan, but I know a handful of professional developers who main apples.

Dislike the idea that only autistic people use linux.
- Only the ones who install it at 12
  
  I did that, not autistic.
  
  Blud, it's not even that tekky, u js choose a distro n DE press next a few times and you're done, your nan could install it.
  You don't even need to touch the terminal for anything other than installing shit n updating, and u can even js use a GUI if ur that braindead u can't type in a few words into a black box.
  All the Linux bashing, and calling users neeks online is js regurgitated US gov propaganda.
  Windows is becoming less usable by the hour, and Apple products are becoming more expensive and less repairable so we're seeing a higher influx of users than ever, not even mentioning the fact they're both spyware controlled by a fascist orange man.
  
  Is that not fairly normal though? I must've been around that age when someone at school handed me a mandrake disk and kicked off my first linux experience.
- I'd be kinda ok with someone jokingly saying that about themselves when they're actually autistic. But just randomly calling a stranger autistic in association with a specific interest is so regressive and insulting.
  
  It's the weirdest combination of ableism and aspie supremacy all in one gross package.

I switched to Linux after my experience with Windows Millennium Edition. Many people have since referred to me as some sort of programming genius and hacker.....I don't know crap about any of that. I've simply followed instructions and referred to the help communities, whenever I've had trouble. Using the mainstream distributions (I'm guessing) has kept me from having much trouble.
I think my kids may benefit, as my wife only uses Mac, I have 2 Ubuntus and a Mint, and the kids use Chromebooks at school. We have 2 iPad and a Galaxy tab in the house. 1 kid has an Android phone and the other an iPhone. My wife and I both have flagship Android phones.
Sometimes it's fun to watch them debate over which systems they prefer, depending on the school projects they work on.
- Mixed messages here: "I’ve simply followed instructions and referred to the help communities, whenever I’ve had trouble." Fellow human, those are the actions of a programming genius and hacker. The bar is remarkably low. A lot of people can't even read what it says on the screen.
  
  Peoples' definition on programming is unclear.
  I watched two people argue if Dennis Ritchie or Mark Zuckerberg is better at programming in comments on a youtube video about C.
  And they are relatively tech-savy if they watch those videos.
- It was VIsta for me!

I suddenly vividly remember putting my mom’s Chromebook into developer mode and installing crouton on it so I could play Minecraft.

I learned because I was torrenting and broke the family windows computer. It was either fix it or get grounded.

I take it someone has already pointed out that excluded was the word wanted?
- Don't unclude my vocabulary like that
  
  I’m not unsinuating nothing.
- Disclude is a perfectly cromulent word.

Started on Mac. Still use one as my (not so-) daily driver. In the ~30 years in between, I've (professionally) been a PC field service technician, mainframe operator, datacenter tech, enterprise monitoring administrator, and a whole slew of other tech hats. In my personal time, I learned OS 7-8 inside and out (ResEdit ftw), built PCs out of spare parts (throwing Linux on some just to do it), turned an old tower into an external SCSI enclosure, built VM stacks for fun (DOS 6.2, Win 3.1, Win95 all on the same Mac box decades ago, just because I could), half-wired my parents' house for ethernet, built them a Hackintosh from parts, stuck a Linux VM on an old laptop to host Citrix so I could remote into work and have that one extra layer between personal and business, and gotten completely disillusioned with tech as a hobby and as the framework for modern society.
- I followed you right off that cliff.
  
  30ish more years of this. 🫠

But... I started on a BBC Micro.
- Maybe I'm not up to date on my porn slang but "BBC micro" sounds like an inherent contradiction.
- Get you and your modern luxuries!
  Were your parents teachers?
  
  We didn't own a BBC Micro, my school did.
  My modern luxury at home was one of these:

Should've written "Mac PCs" just to mess with people.
- I'm aware, yes, and that's what I was referring to. By that time it was basically the same hardware as any other computer, but with slightly different motherboards and with special proprietary firmware.
  There's also some irony in the fact that "PC" was once a trademark that became generic. Someone should do the "Is this xerox a Canon?" joke, but with computers.

Some people are just naturally computer savvy. My class and I were taught on how to use command prompt, but only few of us could get it. We just wanted to play Command and Conquer and DOTA, and leave the tweaking to the nerds.
- Nah, I really don't think anyone is naturally computer savvy. Computers are literally the furthest thing from nature in existence. Some children are given the freedom and/or encouragement to explore computers, and some aren't. Giving a child an iPhone or an iPad as their first computer is the opposite of this, btw.
  Edit: For the record, nobody I know who uses a terminal on a daily basis used it in class for the first time.

Can confirm. Started on a Mac. Was using terminal, hex editor, resource forks, and squirrel basic to modify my Catz installation before I was 10. Windows peers seemed to think computers were made of rainbows and unicorns
- Weird. I was thinking the post was saying Mac kids were less digitally literate because of the whole "it just works" culture. When I ran a help desk, the Mac users were definitely less adept. The pattern seems to continue with iPhone and Android users I encounter today.
  
  Well, now I really want to see the results of such a study. My hypothesis is that it actually has more to do with the activities each computer is used for rather than the actual OS. As in, gamers (Windows) are more likely to be tech literate than authors (Mac), or graphic artists (Mac) are more likely to be tech literate than office workers (Windows).
- Nah. Windows with ati card here. I was fucking around with regedit and config files, drivers and dlls every damn time I wanted to run a game.
- What are you confirming? They didn't state their hypothesis.
  
  Yeah I guess not. It seemed obvious to me, but I guess for other people it seemed obvious in the opposite direction.

Was taught using Apple2 then Macs in Jr High.
I built my own PC in high school (late 90s), upgraded it through college, then switched back to Mac’s when they went Intel.
I can’t muddle through Ruby, Python, Perl, Php C/C++, Objective-C and Swift. But wrote Actionscript, JS, and HTML/CSS for a living for 15 years.
How you start doesn’t matter and Mac’s are still better than Chromebooks. They have Unix shells FFS.
- Unix shells
  Since macos X. Prior did not...
  
  Yeah. But that’s since 2001. So 24 years of Unix. Pretty sure that covers most recent grads or new hires ;)
  I started on BASIC Apple IIe (had the full numpad for playing math munchers faster!)
  Then we had a system 6 Performa that later got upgraded to System 7 then even 8 before I was able to save for a PC (Pentium 3 333mhz) during my last year of high school.

I just want to point out that I was somewhat tech literate in the 2000s. and The Mac OS still scared me.

I started on Mac and installed Linux on a PS3 just to see if I could, where does that put me on the spectrum
- You are the ~~brute squad~~ spectrum.

Is Apple IIe a Macintosh?
- yep, exact same thing. Apple is the name of the company, Macintosh is the brand of computer
  
  Is it the same exact thing if it came out years before the original Macintosh?
  
  It was rhetorical, and it's not the same thing as Macintosh. Strictly commandline, like DOS.

The Picard Maneuver, inciting violence once again, I see. tips fedora
- Gotta get my kicks somehow

I played education games on a Apple II in 1998; I was in the first grade.

What about those of us who were typing code from a magazine into an Oric-1?
- The study is about kids, not ancient beings.
- When I was a child I was trying to type QBASIC code from a magazine called DOS into my (inherited) Atari 1024ST with Omikron Basic and tried to figure out why that didn't work so well.
- I only knew one person with an oric-1 is that you, Neil?
  
  Sorry, not Neil.

I grew up on Mac and only switched to Windows when I was 30. lol
I still wonder what Linux is like… It’s probably cool.
- Well, the time to find out is now :)
  
  I would love to try it out, but if there is one thing that will make me want to set the world on fire: it’s tech issues lmfao Not saying that’s what the experience is like, I just kinda get that impression from memes and shit
  The setup does not seem undaunting lmao
- Depending on when and how deep your Mac experience was, it might be an easy switch. Despite its numerous failings MacOS, from OSX onwards, is a Unix. In particular a BSD, via NeXTSTEP.
- Oh shit, same here! Were you surprised to learn how much basic stuff you didn't know?
  
  To be honest, not really. But I guess I got acclimated to Windows through the computers at my schools, so maybe that’s why.
  I will admit, the environment feels more ‘open’ even if utilizing that openness is convoluted or requires more technical skills.
  I think the main draw for me was the hardware and the ability to ‘easily’ replace it. Can’t do that on an iMac lol

The thing with Macs is you don't have to spend 80% of your time troubleshooting them. I love my Mac and OS X. I boot it up, log in, and don't have to think about it. The UI is very intuitive and easy to use as well.
- Listen I love the battery life on my m1 but it's the first mac I've owned and "intuitive" is not the description I'd use for the ui. Is terminal and homebrew familiar sure, and for most things it does work. But then there are the real oddities in the ui. Like why does finder not show me my full file system by default? Why do I drag and drop when installing a new app, thats fucking stupid. Why are files in folders just placed where ever with no order? There should be a grid pattern that works by default so it doesn't become so disorganized. Why does clicking into folders just add a divider in finder instead of actually opening the folder so that after a couple nested folders you can barely make out file names. If you have lived with that madness for all your life maybe it's "intuitive" because you have gotten used to it but linux and windows are just miles ahead in ui intuitiveness when it comes to basic functionality like this.
  
  I’ve used both since 2001. Windows default search is worse, dragging and dropping to your chosen install location seems to make just as much sense as choosing it in a pop up window, grid and sort by are both right click dialog options. I thought the argument against Mac software was a lack of options so now I’m going to ask why Windows doesn’t let you organize folders by vibes
  
  Why do I drag and drop when installing a new app, thats fucking stupid.
  That's how all file copy operations are done. Apps are just a virtual file that you drag into the Applications folder. To uninstall it you simply delete the file. Done.
  As far as folder organization goes, I like that MacOS leaves my files where I left them. There are options to sort files if you need to as well.
- I don't have to troubleshoot my kid's Speak and Spell either.
  
  That's a good thing. The device does one thing and does it well.
  
  But you can circuit-bend that shit 🤘🤘
- Every year I believe this more and more. I've always been lumped in with the tech crowd by anyone not tech-savvy, but in reality all my knowledge is from personal troubleshooting and very limited (I'm thinking of trying Linux and that's gonna be like a whole ass event for me). I used to think that was dumb, but then I started working with more Gen Z...
  They have zero idea how to troubleshoot anything. If the computer doesn't do what they expect, it's a full stop for some of them. I have "solved" so many IT problems by replugging a cable or just knowing the settings option exists. These aren't stupid kids either, they're in a tough industry and very capable otherwise. I think my generation was right place, right time to learn this stuff organically because shit just never worked quite right -- apple was largely the outlier back then.
  
  If you even know what an OS is you're ahead of 70% of the population. Probably more.
- I have an external Samsung SSD that my mac mini just refuses to keep indexed.
  The solution to this is when I log in every day I have to go into the Mac system settings and tell finder to ignore my external drive, close system setting, then reopen systen setting and tell finder to no longer ignore the external drive. This is the only way to get it to reindex everything.
  I need to do this everytime the mac mini wakes from sleep.
  
  OK, that is one thing I haven't figured out yet. How to make persistent SMB mounts.
  
  Yeah no fucking shot I would do this for more than a day before getting a new pc
- The automation features in macOS are fantastic. Search, filter, run scripts when a new file arrives in a folder, great GUIs for automation, services. It’s sooooo powerful and accessible. Search for menu items in every application from the keyboard. Change keyboard shortcuts for all menus in all applications. Python, ruby, zsh, bash, are all installed by default. The default image and PDF viewer Preview.app has great editing for PDF included.
  If you want to get shit done, macOS is just excellent in so many ways.
  I started with a windows computer and learned lots about troubleshooting windows. However once I started using a Mac, I actually made cool stuff with my computer like music, nice documents, fun automation, video, programming, and so on.
  The indie software scene on macOS is also unmatched, I think. The apps made by Omni and Panic have no equivalent on Linux or Windows. Kaleidoscope.app is the best diff app on any platform.
- I've used mac for 2 years now for work (despite my repeated requests for a linux laptop). I have all kinds of weird issues including screensaver taking up gigs of memory, login not working unless I click off my portrait and click back on it (with no other changes), and a bunch of other just weirdness. I can't stand the thing.
- Sounds like both of my laptops running KDE
- Used to work in mobile phone sales at a 100% telco owned store, so when things went tits up for customers the licensed stores in our area would tell customers to come to our store as we had employee access that exceeded partner access. I had SO many variations of the apologetic conversation with an elderly person whose family assured them that the iPhone is the easiest thing ever to use. They were happy with a feature phone but had an iDevice shoved down their throat by family members because "they are so easy". Oh and arranging a change of mind return on an iPhone is a fucking nightmare in Australian Telco land.
  They are not the easiest most straightforward choice, unless you use your devices in the constrained manner Apple has decided you will use them. The multiple times I have been forced to use a Mac or an iPhone or IPad, I have found them slow, obtuse and they have an annoying habit of hiding information I want to see. Windows is not really any better, just different.
  I kind of see it like any other preference, people assume that because they find something the best then everyone must agree with that take.
- Them's fightin' words 'round these parts, buster.
  (... i agree)
- Intuitive for very basic things, but if you want to do anything outside the norm or some ease of use things from other desktops, goodluck.
  
  The first mainframe account I ever had was an nCube2 supercomputer. No timesharing or anything, the full power of a Unix system just waiting under your terminal session. Today I have the same CLI under the hood of my MBP because it runs on a Unix kernel. In terms of power tho, this laptop makes the supercomputer look like a toy. I wouldn't call either one's use case "very basic things."

My first experience with Linux was at 10 years old or so. I had a netbook that I'd installed Ubuntu on.
Flash forward nearly 14 years and I use Arch as pretty much a daily driver these days.
- I feel old. Linux didn't exist when I was 10 years old, Linus was still in high school at that point. My home computer was a TRS-80 CoCo 2.
  
  TRS!
  Yeah, I'm only turning 24 this October, so that's much before my time. I've always found something charming about machines from that era. My grandfather has an Amiga 500 that he got back in the day that still works. Sometimes him and I play around on it just for fun.
  
  I feel medium aged. Netbooks didn't exist when I was 10 years old. My home computer was a 386 with Win3.11 that was very dated at the time.

10 Print "BBC micro crew" 20 Print " I'm only dyslexic not autistic" 30 GOTO 10

where my amiga weirdos at?
- Loved my Amega so much. Spent hours drawing in Brilliance.

I started on Commodore (Vic20 that I don't remember much, C64, and A500) mostly with a tiny bit of Atari and then was on Windows at home for decades (I tried installing Linux (Mandrake and Redhat) back when it fit on a floppy, but without a lot of success). I guess I'm too old and not neurotypical enough?

My first usage of tech was my parents Apple 2E. So I don't know what that means... It wasn't Windows or Mac (the 2E is pre Macintosh).

What about TRS-DOS?

"When I was a kid the computer didn't need some filthy OS!!"
ZX81 - C64 - Amiga (that wasn't an OS, it was just for launching stuff! /s ) gang

Omg, this is the best early-morning laugh that I've had in a long time. Mac-nerd, here. From childhood. Also a Linux nerd for servers. This is so great that I immediately sent it to friends in tech. I'm still laughing like a nut.

Fun. I didn't grow up issuing a Mac, not did I grow up using Windows.... Nor Linux.
When I started on computers, we used DOS.
I'm old.
I'm not old enough to remember punch cards, I was solidly in the x86 generation, but still.
For the record, I do IT support now. I'm the one that helps you with your printer.