can i get a rundown on rojava?
can i get a rundown on rojava?
Like whats its whole deal? it was western backed but doesn't it work with the syrian government? Are they communists?
They're libertarian socialist.
I've seen some criticism of Rojava, specifically because they have private property rights, some Kurdish nationalist tendencies, and their status as sort of a US proxy. I don't know enough about the situation to say how true that all is, though.
https://linestruggle.medium.com/on-rojava-and-the-western-left-bac1b858173e
was of the impression that on the ground they were fairly communist. Lenin was required reading etc. Libertarian Socialism is something Kurdish movements pivoted to when Öcalan and the PKK pivoted from Marxist-Leninism.From what I gather, its mostly about having a decentralized organizational structure, which makes sense for a movement thats spread across three or more countries. Decentralized movements often lack the capability of coordinated action and seize opportunities but are much harder to kill off compared to centralized orgs.
Some Kurdish nationalist tendencies
I think this needs to be put in context as Kurds are a big ethnic group that has a very long history of pretty brutal oppression, especially given that the traditional Kurdish region spans across many borders so if you're a Kurd in your ancestral lands in Iran - lol good luck, and if you're a Kurd in Iraq - lol good luck, and if you're a Kurd in Turkey - lol good luck.
I'm not sure where OP is but imagine if the Roma people had their own ancestral homeland that they have continually occupied which was pretty unified but which is also divided by modern European borders. There's every chance that the Roma people would be like "Fuck this, we have been treated like dogshit (including being subjected to ethnic cleansing and genocide) and there isn't a single state in Europe which is gonna look out for us so we need to look out for ourselves and create a Roma state" because it's essentially exactly that for Kurds right now.
I'd say that Kurds are best understood as as existing in an internal colony within Iran, Syria, Iraq, and Turkey. With this in context I view Kurdish nationalism as being more aligned to national liberation than the uglier side of nationalism.
With that being said, the Kurds are not angels and there are troubling reports about Kurdish forces carrying out ethnic cleansing and even genocide. The problem is that governments, especially the Syrian and Turkish governments, are extremely hostile towards Kurds and the reports of ethnic cleansing are easily fabricated, exaggerated (e.g. non-Kurds who lived under ISIS fairly contently fleeing when Kurdish forces take a region because they don't want to end up imprisoned for collaborating with ISIS or simply fleeing because a new salient has opened up where they live and they don't want to get killed in the fighting), or they are distorted (e.g. masses fleeing ISIS or another force but the blame being pinned on Kurds for political reasons) so it's difficult to really get a good grasp of what's going on.
Ultimately Kurds are stuck in a shitty situation that has been foisted upon them by other political players and they're doing what is in their interests so it's hard to be unsympathetic towards them.
Are they being used as a splinter group to foment balkanisation in the region of the Levant by the US who seeks to destabilise and overthrow the Syrian government? Yep, at least historically.
Are they used as a tool by the US to keep Erdogan on a leash so that he doesn't stray too far from Uncle Sam's agenda, at the risk of them supporting Kurdish separatism and turning Turkey into a civil warzone/rump state? Yes.
If I were Kurdish and had the chance to shoot my shot for the opportunity of establishing a Kurdistan as a recognised state and distinct political entity, would I go for it? Yes.
If I were on the frontlines fighting against ISIS, a force that would absolutely exterminate Kurds if they are given the opportunity, and the US armed forces sought to broker a deal to coordinate attacks on ISIS and to provide support to my side, would I take them up on that offer? It brings me no joy to say it but yes, I would.
It's a really messy, ugly situation and it has been this way for a very long time for the Kurds. They don't have clean hands but when you're fighting for survival you have to fight dirty.
Idk what to say. A balkanised Syria is bad news for the Syrian people and for the wider region but a strong, unified Syria is no guarantee for safety for the Kurds in any way. If Atatürk didn't have an epiphany one day and decide "You know what? Fuck the Kurds!" then maybe things would be very different right now but as it stands the Kurds only have the safety that they fight for and maintain with their lives so Kurdish nationalism is understandable imo.
especially given that the traditional Kurdish region spans across many borders so if you're a Kurd in your ancestral lands in Iran - lol good luck, and if you're a Kurd in Iraq - lol good luck, and if you're a Kurd in Turkey - lol good luck.
To add to this, the Kurds had their own territory under the Ottomans. After WWI, the British and French carved up the empire for themselves. They literally used a ruler to draw straight lines to divide territory. There was no consideration for ethnicities, language, existing borders, etc.
This is why Kurds are spread out across multiple countries, despite being close to one another geographically. If you look at a map showing where the majority of Kurds live, you can see the outline of a would-be country divided amongst its neighbors. Iraq was also a victim of this, with Sunnis and Shia Muslims having their own territories, but then were divided or combined for the benefit of the English and French.
The division of the Middle East was deliberate so European colonizers could pit groups against one another while they pillaged those countries. The same tactic was used with the caste system in India, so the British knew if they replicated that, they wouldn't face any resistance.
I agree that they seem to have just taken the US support as a massive attempt to both get their cause seen by more people (which is helpful in changing hearts and minds away from the "they are PPK and PKK are 'terrorists'" which was how they were presented by even US propaganda). And to use the really good opportunity in the fight against ISIS to get any and all supplies they could from the US in order to keep their area defended for the inevitable attacks from Türkiye after ISIS. Though I am not sure how many weapons and other defense related items they were able to get (but supplies are supplies). They still need to make sure to walk the fine lines with the Syrian government to be sure.
The most fucked thing that they have been left with is the ISIS prisoners and their families. The longer that those massive numbers of people are left in limbo due to all the nations that they originated from not wanting to take them back. The worse shit will be when those folks break out of containment. Shit would be great to use by Türkiye especially as an excuse to "legitimately" invade. Which means brutal genocide of the Kurds from both sides. And if the open air prisons go on long enough, it will be easy for bad-faith actors to eventually paint them as doing what Israel is doing with Gaza/West Bank. Which isn't what they are doing, but multiple generations of families being imprisoned (even if said prisons weren't setup by the Kurds for that length of time in mind) for crimes against humanity that the new generation didn't commit will be easy to use for propaganda.
The Kurds are resourceful, but trying to figure out how to allow people out without it turning into a bloodbath is beyond fucked. It might have been easier (and still beyond fucked) to have not taken prisoners and kill anyone and everyone that flew the ISIS flag before "victory" was claimed. They know that a majority of prisoners actively plan and openly speak about the torture and murder they will commit if they are able to get out. Which I imagine is what the long term goal of Türkiye and other hostile powers wish to make happen. The nations that want to keep their hands clean of bringing ISIS families back home to have to deal with are fine with Kurds being killed. Just like how the US and the West have done with green-washing themselves by pushing shit off onto "third world" nations.
i mean you don't have to accept US support, there are arguments for it but most can be dismissed in any situation due to historical examples. Any US backed movement usually became nothing but US backed and a vassal of empire, screwing over the revolution. If they wanted to take a rough deal they could have gone with the syrians (which they eventually did anyway). Now they're still sticking with them to disrupt syria despite it.
Of course i think kurdish nationalism as reasonable, but the corruption that comes from being a US backed movement is considerable. I have no illusions that the kurds are treated well under any of their occupier regimes, but rojava was doomed to be a case of cancer by making a deal with the devil. Israel supports kurdistan and has made many pro-kurdish stances in the years of its existence, and alignment with israel is not a good sign for your national liberation struggle. Becoming a US vassal usually means opposing other national liberation struggles that you should have solidarity with, like palestine. Theres in fact a reactionary solidarity of 'both being oppressed by arabs' that is built in some areas of thought, of course not necessarily representing the broader population and can be destroyed from within. Its existence is still notable all in all.
I am not condemning it for being 'not socialist enough' or whatever, since I support national liberation first, but US vassalage puts you into becoming a guard dog of empire, you get in the way of other struggles for self-determination.
its a tough spot, and im still learning. I hope there is a kurdish state in the future at the end of the day, but i hesitate to support a project that comes into conflict with anti imperialism and cozies up to imperialism in such a way.
thank you for the reading, its very interesting! Of course i don't make my support based on if they're a proper ideology or socialist enough when it comes to national liberation, but the reactionary nationalist tendencies and western vassalage is something of great concern to me
They steal oil from anti-imperialist nations which would be used to fund and support said nations and instead sell it to the US and Israel, the latter having praised them heavily in the past while giving them direct aid - the parallels to Israel are alarming and the fact that any leftist here supports them is disappointing, especially after the events of the last year and the continuing escalation of war in West Asia.
They are essentially a military base for the US in Syria, with the SDF being literally named by a US General. They have taken weapons from Yzidi and other ethnic minorities in the region claiming they would protect them and then let them be slaughtered. They have participated in rounding up ethnic minorities and imprisoning them.
They are fully a proxy of the US and do their bidding.
People have romanticized them because of their origin story but failed to keep up with their transformation from a legitimate revolutionary movement into a full puppet of imperialism. Supporting ethno-nationalism is not it, it isn't hard to see this for what it is, and their attempts at covering their ethno-nationalism with shallow "look at our token Assyrian, Yzidi, etc member" instantly vanishes if you speak to a Kurd who supports Kurdistan about their desire for a Kurdish state.
It is Israel 2.0.
Supporting Rojava is supporting the US grip in West Asia, including Israel, it is supporting the occupation of sovereign nations by US proxies, and is anti-communist. It seems like people have a liberal notion that because some Kurds are self proclaimed communists means they are actual, real communists. We have had hundreds of examples at this point to prove that people who call themselves communists or socialists aren't magically principled, correct, sincere, or worth supporting. Stop romanticizing these people and do some actual research. They follow the guidance of a man who rejected Marxism Leninism for his own brand of Bookchin-thought which has spun off into an obvious cult of personality around him, why are y'all still stanning this?
I could see "critical support" over a decade ago but at this point there is nothing to support and everything to criticize. The people of Syria including the Kurds would be more liberated under a sovereign and independent Syria that isn't occupied by the US via their proxies. We don't need imperial proxy ethnostates for national liberation.
links from a variety of sources - as always, do your own research and dig deep because this topic is heavily dominated by imperialist voices: https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2020/08/10/heres-the-current-us-plan-to-build-up-syrian-proxies-including-an-oilfield-guard-force/ https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2017/05/07/syrian-kurds-are-now-armed-with-sensitive-us-weaponry-and-the-pentagon-denies-supplying-it/ https://leftistcritic.wordpress.com/2017/05/24/until-imperialism-is-defeated-in-the-region-the-kurds-and-the-syrian-arab-republic/ https://dissidentvoice.org/2017/05/a-liberated-area-in-the-middle-east-western-imperialism-in-rojava/ https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2021/08/29/2562389/protesters-condemn-us-arrest-of-300-syrian-tribesmen https://dissidentvoice.org/2017/05/the-illegal-entity-of-rojava-and-imperial-divide-and-rule-tactics/ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-usa-exclusive-idUSKCN1AX1RI/ https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/w/sdf-commander-pro-us-statements-sound-alarm-amid-rumours-of-rift-in-kurdish-movement#.YgmgAXmQeJY.twitter https://www.reddit.com/r/communism/comments/dfo27v/repost_an_antiimperialist_orientation_toward/ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-oil-usa/syria-says-us-oil-firm-signed-deal-with-kurdish-led-rebels-idUSKBN24Y0FD http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-11/18/c_139523204.htm https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/eight-killed-protests-against-kurdish-led-forces-northern-syrian-city-2021-06-01/ https://www.defenseone.com/policy/2021/02/coalition-plans-expand-giant-isis-prison-syria/172270/ https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/no-education-under-us-backed-sdf-rule https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/06/10/heres-what-the-centcom-commander-says-about-the-possibility-of-syria-afghanistan-withdrawals/ www.militarytimes.com/articles/ypg-turkey-socom-terrorism-rebrand https://www.reddit.com/r/communism101/comments/114vcsx/comment/j929afg/?context=3
They steal oil from anti-imperialist nations which would be used to fund and support said nations and instead sell it to the US and Israel, the latter having praised them heavily in the past while giving them direct aid - the parallels to Israel are alarming and the fact that any leftist here supports them is disappointing, especially after the events of the last year and the continuing escalation of war in West Asia.
although i do agree that there are many alarming things like its cooperation with the US in oil exploitation, an important difference between Israel and kurdistan (at least for those who dont think them similar) is that kurds are actually indigenous to the area, while zionists are settler fascists. I think that if I conclude that rojava is a reactionary imperial link in the western empire's chain, it would be more akin to ukraine or estonia.
I myself am concerned due to my limited knowledge and rojava being constantly referenced positively by anarchists near me (im not an anarchist at all, but these anarchists are really good on indigenous rights), and they seem like a good side to support from the surface. The complication is its cooperation with empire and fight with another critical supported country of mine: syria. Although from recent information i'd say that Syria played no small roll in causing the kurds to revolt against them. Revoking citizenship to kurds is kind of asking them to fight against you in my mind.
They are essentially a military base for the US in Syria, with the SDF being literally named by a US General. They have taken weapons from Yzidi and other ethnic minorities in the region claiming they would protect them and then let them be slaughtered. They have participated in rounding up ethnic minorities and imprisoning them.
I have heard these critiques and they are my main concern. The link between the US and Rojava are not small and that gives me great pause.
People have romanticized them because of their origin story but failed to keep up with their transformation from a legitimate revolutionary movement into a full puppet of imperialism. Supporting ethno-nationalism is not it, it isn't hard to see this for what it is, and their attempts at covering their ethno-nationalism with shallow "look at our token Assyrian, Yzidi, etc member" instantly vanishes if you speak to a Kurd who supports Kurdistan about their desire for a Kurdish state.
reactionary tendencies within such a decentralized ethnic sepratist group is bound to occur. I do think at this point though that a kurdish state may be necessary for liberation, as the separation under colonialist lines are entirely products of the west. Kurdish protection and autonomy at the very least, but the repression faced by kurds in Iraq, Syria, and Turkey (i know little of the situation of the kurds in iran but from what i have its not much different than the others) suggests the need for some sort of separate state entity. I do support Syria, Iraq, and Kurdistan in their anti imperialist projects, but I cannot find a good reason to also deny the demand of liberation from oppression that the kurds have given.
Supporting Rojava is supporting the US grip in West Asia, including Israel, it is supporting the occupation of sovereign nations by US proxies, and is anti-communist. It seems like people have a liberal notion that because some Kurds are self proclaimed communists means they are actual, real communists. We have had hundreds of examples at this point to prove that people who call themselves communists or socialists aren't magically principled, correct, sincere, or worth supporting. Stop romanticizing these people and do some actual research. They follow the guidance of a man who rejected Marxism Leninism for his own brand of Bookchin-thought which has spun off into an obvious cult of personality around him, why are y'all still stanning this?
As a Marxist Leninist, I know of their strange ideological platform and personally do not think it viable. decentralized bookchin nonsense is not something im going to cheer for. Democratic Confederationism is very restricted to Rojava.
But this is national liberation, and that changes things. I do not necessitate a Marxist Leninist ideological alignment for every national liberation, and in fact see national liberation as more important first due to it being a larger contradiction than class and capital. Should we support the Somali government's invasion of ethiopia due to them being 'socialist'? No. Should we not support the liberation of palestine even though the powers at the head are in fact religious fighters and not marxist leninists? Definitely not! Pol Pot was a socialist backed by the 'true communists' in china, should we support him (despite his allegiance to US imperialism and ethnic cleansing of the vietanmese)? never.
Of course criticism of revisionism, reactionary tendencies, and other such things are important, sometimes they take a backseat.
Like, we like the EZLN, or the Zapitistas. They are not anarchist obviously (much to the ignorance and chagrin of the western left), but theyre not a socialist state. We should still support them should we not? They are a native movement are they not?
I could see "critical support" over a decade ago but at this point there is nothing to support and everything to criticize. The people of Syria including the Kurds would be more liberated under a sovereign and independent Syria that isn't occupied by the US via their proxies. We don't need imperial proxy ethnostates for national liberation.
of course i agree, however Syria needs to also learn from their cruel treatment of the Kurds that lead to this happening in the first place. If that can somehow be achieved, then I would fully agree with this.
Of course America is the great satan, and any alignment with it gives me immediate pause. Not every national liberation movement is a real one (hong kong, taiwan, texas).
thank you vey much for the sources, i will comb through them!
an important difference between Israel and kurdistan (at least for those who dont think them similar) is that kurds are actually indigenous to the area, while zionists are settler fascists.
I agree generally with this but also am not familiar enough with the way the lands in what they claim are parts of or fully "Kurdistan" have been inhabited over the last centuries by the many many indigenous groups in the region to say that the lands they are claiming or currently occupying are "theirs" in the way that "Kurdistan" implies. I have seen many go as far as to call the current iteration of Kurdish power fascist and colonial in nature, and if they are co-opting the lands of other people that is not solely theirs, it can certainly be argued that they are participating in some form of settler-colonialism, especially since it is funded by the settler colonial powers and functionally allied with the other settler colonial power in the region, taking land of other people while reducing their power and in some cases eliminating them, and using the natural resources to enrich themselves and their struggle as an imperialist proxy.
I agree that the Syrian state has made mistakes in its handling of a lot of things but ultimately believe it is the state that the workers and peasants in Syria need to wield together in whatever way they decide together and most importantly- this will never be possible with a US military occupation at the behest of the Kurds. Maybe it will end up with an autonomous region like some ethnic groups in China or the Kurds in Iraq have, it is not for me to say, but it does feel odd to promote ethno-states in 2024. We have functional examples of how to have an ethnic minority live within an a multi ethnic state while having cultural autonomy, promotion, and protection. It would only be through the Kurds turning away from imperialism and finding a diplomatic solution with their neighbors that this could happen, and until then they could be comparable to perhaps the Hmong in Vietnam, or the many other eventual proxies with legitimate issues who are pushed into the dark side in their hopes of solving them.
Kurdistan in their anti imperialist project
can you elaborate on this? they are using the fight against other US/NATO backed proxies as a justification to be armed and control territory, which is a part of the imperialist project's projection of power in the region. they are stealing oil from nations and handing over to imperialists. they are funded by and take orders from imperialists. I think comparing two multi-ethnic nations currently engaged in proxy wars against the imperial core to a non existent ethno-state that is in many ways aiding the imperialists against them while labeling them all anti-imperialist needs to be reconsidered.
But this is national liberation, and that changes things.
I agree that it opens up a lot of contradictions that must be looked at as clearly as they can and within the greater context of contradictions and their relation to the primary contradictions of our geopolitical space, and in this case it has transformed from the Palestine example into the Pol Pot example to my eyes as a non expert on the topic who has done my best to research over the years.
Like, we like the EZLN, or the Zapitista
The Zapatistas united people from over 13 different language groups into a revolutionary movement that transformed their lives at large for the better and the only thing stopping them from continuing that is a neo-liberal state heavily influenced by the US. They are like the anti-Rojava. They don't follow one guy's ideas about another guy's ideas while rejecting marxism-leninism. They synthesize all the info they can find through their cultural, political and economic realities in a directly democratic way where everyone from like 15 years and up have direct control over their communities, workplaces, and the larger goals of the federation of autonomous regions.
My prediction is that as Israel and Ukraine continue to crumble and the nations that are against them gain momentum, continue to unify around BRICS, and divest from imperialist nations while pushing them out of the region, China will eventually be able to step in and bridge the relationship between the Kurds and the other players in the region which will see the Kurds have to cut off the US in exchange for ceasefires and lots of economic support. We've seen so much progress in the region in this regard, and it can only continue to move forward as the imperialist death machine falls apart under the weight of its own consequences.
They're good and cool and Marxist Communists (though not perfect, their beliefs are not dissimilar to the EZLN, as are their flaws) but were put in a shitty situation where they wanted to protect their full autonomy against Assad and also fight off Turkey. After they held off Turkey (heroically), and a bunch of Feds in the area started realising that they were the only sane people in the area except Assad, the US offered them a poisoned chalice of support. Given the choice of full autonomy under USA or partial under Assad, they took the dumb guy option.
Of course the moment Syria became a lost cause and ISIS was crushed the USA threw them under the bus for mild concessions from Erdogan. Now they've taken a worse deal from Assad and Turkey still threatens them. But at least something of the project survives.
As for their project itself. It's probably the second or third most successful Libertarian Marxist project, after the KPAM and the EZLN. But it had major issues with co-ordination, and Kurdish dominance caused power imbalances despite attempts by the KPG to bring minority groups into power as much as possible. Kurdish nationalists also formed their own parties and fuckery from Iraqi Kurdistan (Which is shockingly corrupt, and has gone from being run by two corrupt families (one right wing and the other essentially the Union leaders from Disco Elysium) to one (the right wing one) worsened matters. The KPG should have kept more tight ideological control over the area but their ideology itself made this difficult.
Nevertheless, critical support to our comrades, and there's a lot of good things to learn from them.
I support EZLN, but they are not vassals of empire. Its hard to critically support rojava when it is linked so much to western imperialism. Of course i believe in kurdish liberation, but its hard to support it in this case when its being used so opportunistically in favor of the west.
its just confusing, and its rough, and i dont know who i should support, even critically. Its links with Israel also complicate things.
You can critically support the existence of Rojava while also recognising that ultimately accommodation with Assad is the only viable option and that the alliance with the USA was a stunningly bad idea in the long run.
I mean that's what critical support is, you critique the dumb shit AES does, not to dunk on them but so you and others don't make those errors should your turn come around. The Soviets also supported Israel in the beginning, before the true nature of the state became clear and the atrocities couldn't be sweeped away as the "excesses" of a traumatized people.
Do I think that China should have made detente with Nixon instead of mending the split with the Soviets? No. I think it was fucking stupid despite the Soviets being in the wrong. Do I still think China are comrades acting in good faith. Yes.