6mo ago

It genuinely upsets me that Valve spent their time and resources on another Dota variation

Like for many other people, Valve single player experiences were one of my favorite of all time growing up. I considered both Half-Life and Portal to be masterpieces. It's true they've always been distracted with multiplayer games as well, things like Counter-Strike or Team Fortress and I did play them for sure, because I was a kid and I had all the time in the world.

These days I'm not a kid anymore and so when I game I tend to look more for memorable experiences instead of mindless grinding. Obviously I remember Valve as the experts in creating memorable experiences and I would like them to keep fully exploring those talents. They don't have that many employees, but they do have all the money in the world, no external pressure, no publisher to shit on them, it's just their developers and artists and a vision. But then they use all that and create this. An Overwatch looking moba shooter, really? I'm sure people will like and play it, but is this the results of the vision and ambition of a company like Valve?

It doesn't have to be Half-Life. I remember them saying that they dont want to do another one in the series because they are looking to innovate and make something truly original. My body is ready, give me anything. I can't imagine a moba shooter really fits with this description. I'm wondering how such a low hanging concept even becomes a real product at a company as ambitious as Valve.

I hear people are having fun with the new game and I'm happy for them. I am no longer the target audience and I wish them good luck with it. In the mean time let me hear your thoughts on it. Would you like to see another single player experience from Valve?

112 comments

I'd love to get another singleplayer game as well, but I've accepted that Valve is just unpredictable. I'm sure they haven't given up on Singleplayer and we'll get another singleplayer game... at some point. Their previous game was the fantastic Half-life Alyx after all.
- I mean, stuff has leaked about a possible new Half Life game, I guess we'll see soon™
  
  Stuff has been leaking about the next Half Life game since Episode 2 came out, and not much of it had anything to do with what we ended up getting with Alyx. Don't get your hopes up newbie.

Valve is not a normal company. As far as I know they still have their fluid work structure in place where projects are dictated by what the devs themselves feel like doing and are inspired by.
Icefrog (who was the lead developer of Dota 2 - and Dota 1 for many years before that) is lead developing Deadlock as I understand it. It has his fingerprints all over it, at least. It seems enough other people at Valve liked his idea of a twist on the MOBA concept to turn it into a full project.
I feel your frustration but there isn't really any opportunity cost lost here. It's not that they decided to make "a game" and chose this one out of all available options. If they felt like they had enough ideas to make Half-Life 3 (or any other single player game) then they would have. It's just that this is the game they want to make right now.

For what it's worth, Robin Walker and his team are working on the next half life after Alyx. Will that ever come out? I have no idea and I'm not expecting anything. Deadlock however is a game designed by one of the grandfathers of the moba genre, and has had over 20k concurrent players at any given time, and it wasn't even announced with it's existence only known through word of mouth. That's insanely impressive and shows how huge the moba genre really is and how those players are thirsty for a new game from a big company. It sucks and I wish we had more sp valve games but I'm content with the work they've done on proton, steamos, the steam deck, steam itself, and half life alyx. They haven't been sitting on their hands not doing anything, they've been putting their focus on more technical areas versus making games and that's ok.
- For what it's worth, Robin Walker and his team are working on the next half life after Alyx.
  Got a source for that? I'm genuinely interested in reading more, but I don't remember seeing anything about it in my usual places.
  
  https://www.eurogamer.net/more-evidence-of-fully-fledged-half-life-game-revealed-by-valve-dataminer
  It's called HLX, and it's apparently a traditional non-vr game. Robin Walker was leading the Alyx team, it's a safe bet he's leading this team or working with this team on the sequel.

I wish for more fun and casual multiplayer with strong competive side like TF, none of this matchmaking toxic shit no-fun allowed with elo
- TF2 has matchmaking even in casual
  
  Back in the golden days of community servers, it sure as heck didn't.
  
  And DOTA2 has the worst matchmaking I've ever seen in casual too. My third game I was placed with the sweatiest sweats and it completely turned me off the game.

"An overwatch looking moba shooter"
No, it plays like Battleborn and Monday Night Combat, a third person shooter with moba elements. It's not overwatch, it's not Dota.
- Also calling Overwatch a "MOBA shooter" is like calling Mario Kart a "Rogue like racer" because you start each race fresh with everything reset. It's just an FPS, nothing MOBA about it.
  
  I think they're calling deadlock a moba, not overwatch
  
  I personally think MOBA should be used to broadly describe a style of game rather than what's done while playing it. I know that when Riot coined the term, they were referring to games like DotA, LoL, etc.; to me the whole approach to a match's flow is echoed similarly enough throughout multiple games, that applying the term MOBA to other games is a logical extension.
  To me a game is a MOBA if:
  The way to interact with it is primarily designed around playing with other players online (the M and O of MOBA.)
  The goals of the players are against the goals of other players — ie. it's competitive rather than cooperative (the B of MOBA.)
  Any player at the beginning of a match has access to all the same options as any other player. This one is a little more vague, but as the A in MOBA stands for arena, I imagine it like a group of gladiators standing before a communal weapon rack that they'll all pick from; no one has any options that the others don't have access to.
  Following these criteria, something like Overwatch is a MOBA, as is DotA, and ironically LoL isn't as you have to unlock options meaning you don't satisfy the arena condition. To differentiate games like DotA, Smite, Awesomenauts, Deadlock, etc., I prefer the term lane-pusher as that's a lot more specific and understandable.
  Does it really matter what it's called? Not really. I mostly just do it so I can feel superior to Riot for coming up with a vague term that is applied, how I deem, incorrectly, while also excluding their own game from the term that they made to describe it.
- Monday Night Combat
  Well, that's a name I haven't heard in a while.
- I don't get how everyone keeps comparing it to those games when Smite exists and it's damn near identical?!
  
  Because it's not identical. SMITE plays like the top down mobas but in a third person perspective. Deadlock plays like a third person shooter with moba elements.
- I think they're comparing it visually to overwatch
- The point stands that it's derivative. I'm convinced Valve can do better.
  
  And isn't everything derivative? What's the issue with that? If feel like you're really trying to gather negativity towards this game simply because it doesn't pander to your tastes
  
  Even if it is, it's a derivation I've been sorely missing. Ever since Battleborn got shut down, there's been a Battleborn shaped hole in my heart. Deadlock fits in that hole really well.
  It's possible that the whole impetus for creating Deadlock came from something like that. Someone at valve, like me, enjoyed the hell out this particular mix of mechanics.
  There's nothing like it. Dota doesn't do the trick, neither does Overwatch. Of all things, the closest thing might be Titanfall 2's titan combat.

we're getting old dude
the kids who are the age we were in the half life glory days--they don't want single player. they want league of apex legends fortnitewatchstrike
single player games won't go away completely, but they're definitely taking a backseat to whatever the rage is with the kids. currently mobas. just google "most played video games" if you're not depressed enough already
- "Single player games have taken a backseat". Okay. We're just going to state that as a truth? And also just stating kids as being the main video games audience still?
  I mean if single player games have taken such a backseat, why are big companies pouring so much money into games such as Horizon, Dragon Age, Assassin's Creed, Anno or Dark Souls? Why are indie games, thousands and tens of thousands of them, so overwhelmingly single player? Why is Zelda still not a MOBA? Just does not really hold water as an argument IMO. If anything it seems the opposite is happening and after the height of MOBAs in ˜2015, the market is slowly creeping back.
  
  Single player games are less and less profitable these days. What the original commenter could have said is, these days, there isn’t much money to be made telling a story when fortnight makes so much money by doing nothing but cosmetics.
- It's not a question of demand, it's a question of profit. Multiplayer games stand to make a lot more money than singleplayer. Nobody will spend real world dollars on cosmetic items in a singleplayer game.
  
  Skyrim has no multiplayer component, but plenty of people have paid cash money for cosmetic items.
  
  And it’s gonna continue until regulations recognize how these games are psychologically terrible for kids and have gambling mechanics.
  
  profit is a function of demand

I'd much rather have a game like deadlock developed out of love and passion than some suits dictating to the devs to make games they don't want to. That's how we get Avengers, Redfall, Gotham Knights, etc...
- Especially considering a lot of the creative talent behind Valve's acclaimed single player catalog are no longer at the company. Valve is a different company now and so their games will be different too.
  
  On the flip side, they still have that Valve spice. Alyx was worthy of the Half Life badge, something I was skeptical was still possible after all that time.

but they do have all the money in the world, no external pressure, no publisher to shit on them, it’s just their developers and artists and a vision.
I think that's part of the issue. Supposedly they do have multiple games in development and a large percentage of their employees are working on them. But they are content to let the creative and technical processes play out, without announcing too-ambitious release dates which inevitably get pushed back and still have a buggy game released. And sometimes they even cut their losses if a long term project just isn't working out.

I'd like them to do an RPG, something completely off the wall, like the TF2 crew playing D&D.
- I'm not saying everything in the world has been done, but "what, like Tiny Tina's Wonderlands?"
  
  Yeah, was thinking the same thing. Which, importantly, is already a game based upon a DLC for a previous Borderlands game!

Why does this billion dollar company not do exaxtly what I expect them to😡 They made great games because those are the ones I like and now they make shitty games because I dont like them.
- I percieve them as different to your run of the mill EA or Ubisoft, so I expect more from them. That's on me I guess. I'm not angry though, just disappointed.
  
  Have they released bad games?

+100, my feelings exactly.
I am now 45. I tried Deadlock, was overwhelmed, some other player told me to "fuck off" through the vocal chat because I was in the wrong lane, I uninstalled.
Generally, I don't have time anymore to play online games that are about grind and skill. I don't want to play only one sort of game. I want a game with an end so that I can move to another one.
MOBAs were cool at the time of warcraft 3. Let's move on.
- MOBAs were cool at the time of warcraft 3. Let's move on.
  What kind of statement is this? MOBAs are still insanely popular. And "move on"? as if there's no reason to iterate or improve on a genre?
  I don't even play MOBAs but I've heard this same sentiment on arena shooters and it makes as much sense there as it does here.
  
  Yeah you're right. This statement was intended for me.
  Everyone can of course play what they want.
- If youre looking for a game with an end then you might wanna stick to single player. Online multiplayer is designed to keep players coming back for more
- Let's move on.
  I enjoy MOBAs a lot, but their communities tend to be so toxic... I'm playing other multiplayer games because I am tired of the toxicity (among other things).
  
  All online games will have a certain amount of toxic players there. No exceptions.
- Valve’s last two releases were Half Life Alyx and Aperture Desk Job. Both are single player games.
  Aperture Desk Job even runs on Linux and Steam Deck.

I’m stoked about Deadlock. I used to play Super Monday Night Combat constantly, until it shut down.
I’ve been waiting like 10 years to get a decent game that fills that void, and Deadlock seems to finally be it! I personally couldn’t be happier with their choice hah.
- Glad I'm not the only one who thought of that game when I heard of deadlock

I miss Super Monday Night Combat. (This is utterly unrelated to the post other than being a shooter/moba.)
- I honestly can't understand how that game still feels like it was so much better than all the clones that came for years after it!
  
  For me it was the themeing. Games like League of Legends try to come up with weird reasons why the games work the way they do and it feels silly. SMNC leaned into the goofiness. Instead of killing a dragon for gold you'd have to catch the Mascot. I wanna say you'd get stuff from brands to help you out but I can't remember.

Don't they supposedly have a couple other games in the works, too? What are the chances they're working on three new MOBAs?
- Inject this hopium into my veins.
  They could just be one moba, one hero shooter and one last man standing, all online and all competitive.

Dude, where have you been? Look how little good single player games rockstar is putting out.
It’s just harder and less profitable.
I rather have one great red dead 2 than 5 forgettable ones; looking at your assassins creed, used to be one of my favourites and I haven’t played anything after black flag.
If I ever get VR stuff, I would want to play Alyx but if they had 5 okayish games instead, it would be a nope from me.
I still haven’t even played black mesa even though i bought it, I like fewer but better choices especially since I’m more busy in this stage of life.
- Doesn't Alyx have a fan-made non VR version as well?
- Is it really or are we assuming it is because publishers do this?
  
  I would argue it’s more like multiplayer games are just much more profitable instead of not being able to turn a profit as well on single player games. And it is very easy to prove that some multiplayer games are cash cows.
  That’s the thing about capitalism though, it’s not about choosing something profitable, it’s choosing the max profit option.
  Thankfully there are enough passionate people and good companies that a savvy gamer can find ways plenty of single player games.

I wish they'd at least do some fun story driven coop stuff instead of only pvp stuff. But, I miss the single player days.

Valve doesn't want to make a buy to play game unless it's something that pushes the medium forward somehow, which is the only reason Alyx was made. A PvP moba can be a source of continued revenue like all the other games they still support (and one they don't).

Isnt Icefrog one of the lead devs? I guess he likes this style of game. How many Total Wars, 4x and CoDs were released while Valve made one more Dota-like. Valve has some cool people working, vut O don't see a Suda51, a Raphael, Swery or Co, who has the focus to develope such a single player experience. If the flat structure with 'at will' project focus is still a thing, than sp games have probably a problem getting devs.
- Since they are probably working on other stuff as well could this mean that Icefrog is the only lead who can take a project to completion reliably within Valve's organizational structure?

Weren't there just credible leaks on a sequel to Half Life Alyx that may or may not be Half Life 3.
- There was a write up from one of the writers who worked on the series.
  This was written after he and most of the team left Valve.

The laws of captialism entropy:
Any organization that sees success will attract profit-driven leadership, and will become such over time. The soul from the original founders will be watered down, dampened, or ejected.
A profit-driven organization will over time become more and more profit-seeking, never less. Once this reaches a certain threshold, we start to use phrases like "enshittification". Valve hasn't gone shit yet imho, but their soul and passion doesn't seem to lie in games anymore.
The next excellent product comes from new, growing organizations or small teams that may grow into such.
It is best to just treat it as any other law of nature and so we move on from Blizzard, Google, EA, Valve, Epic Games, Unity, etc and go swim in the wonderful vibrant indie scene.
- This is just a reminder that Gabe Newell is just another billionaire and he collects yachts, he's not your friend!

They are doing what they like, you would be complaining about them making games without passion, make they really like tf2 and Dota lol

I remember them saying that they dont want to do another one in the series because they are looking to innovate and make something truly original.
I don't remember them saying this, but I remember people speculating that this was a reason. The truth is, if you look into The Final Hours of Half-Life: Alyx, they prototyped a bunch of different single player games that were cancelled because they just weren't working, including Half-Life 3. Post-Alyx, in recent weeks, we have evidence to suggest that Half-Life 3 may be imminent.
It’s true they’ve always been distracted with multiplayer games as well, things like Counter-Strike or Team Fortress and I did play them for sure, because I was a kid and I had all the time in the world.
These days I’m not a kid anymore and so when I game I tend to look more for memorable experiences instead of mindless grinding.
Boy, I miss the days when multiplayer games didn't mean mindless grinding. I play fighting games, and the mindless grinding in recent releases is siloed off to a separate mode that I don't have to think about; otherwise you're playing the game because it's fun and/or because you want to get better at it, not unlock the latest costume. I would love nothing more than for campaign FPS games to come back--the kind that postdated the designs of what we now call boomer shooters--and to come with a deathmatch/CTF mode made out of levels recycled from the campaign, playable online and local. You'd play that multiplayer mode for maybe 5 hours or maybe 5000 hours, depending on how much magic they managed to capture in it, but you absolutely would not have some expectation that the devs must keep updating it. Those were good times, and I didn't appreciate how good we had it.

Got access to it a few days ago. I played it for a few hours. Here's my take:
It's just a tps dota
Now, I don't mind that too much. My problem is with the plethora of issues combat has
Despite there being damage falloff, you are directly decentivised from fighting in close range. This is because you both have little minions on both sides that attack the enemy and heal you. Why would you jump into that? Why would you give up your source of healing?
It's way too easy to retreat. So you just poked and prodded the enemy for 3-4 minutes, finally got into a favourable position, pushed in, and they're already on the zipline out of there. Sure, this is good for you, you can attack their sentinel. But attacking their sentinel isn't fun. It just stands there and attacks your minions. You're punished too much for dying, why would you risk it?
The stun abilities are atrocious. Picture this: you and an enemy found each other without support. You're deep in a close range firefight, having fun for once in the game. Then this rando pokes their head around a corner, stuns you, and you're dead before the stun ends. Why is this in any game?
Most hero weapons feel like you're shooting wet paper towels. The majority of them are fast-shooting, but not in a good CS way. More like "I sincerely hope this is changed and these are just placeholders" way. The few that actually feel good to play (such as the girl with the green arm or the greaser dude) either lack damage in general or damage in mid-long range fights, the majority of the game
The most fun I had in this game had nothing to do with objectives or lanes or teamwork. It was when I was going between lanes and found an enemy doing the same, causing a close ranged battle. Makes me wish they just made this as another TF2

I’m not a kid anymore, I don’t have time for a deep immersive single player campaign, I want a light casual game I can play a few rounds of to relax after work.
- I grew up and decided that games have a place in my life to give experiences, you grew up and decided that they are a source of burst distractions. I guess age has nothing to do with it and it's just about personal preference.
  
  Some games give you a story that sticks with you and you love them for that (Half-Life, To The Moon, Bioshock Infinite). Some give you an experience that sticks with you but no story to speak of (like Doom and Doom II, which I still play).
  What I dislike is having to deal with people in my games. I already do that in reality, thank you very much.
  To me games are about escaping reality.
  
  Your observation is wise
- I’m not a kid anymore and I’m the opposite: give me a single player Half Life 3 so I can relax without getting stressed online after work.
  
  I honestly cannot fathom how people find pvp games relaxing. They're toxic as fuck and their competitive online nature makes them inherently stressful.
- After two young kids I’ve pretty much abandoned multiplayer. Singleplayer, even deep ones, can be be paused, saved, interrupted and come back to later. And I’m wanting to go back to more distinct experiences, whereas I find stuff like league or live service games overfills time. I’m trying to avoid sandbox games too currently as well. Crusader kings, Stellaris, civilization are great, but im trying to concentrate on the more story driven games backlog right now
- I wasn't a kid anymore when HL came out. Hope you are still having fun, whatever you're doing.

Ok, I'm a bit out of the loop but is Deadlock actually any good? Like, most of what I've heard is that it just isn't very fun. Even though they kinda fell apart the auto battler and the card game from Valve were generally fairly well received from what I remember. But everything I've heard about Deadlock is that it's not fun, and is bringing the worst elements of DOTA with it.
Maybe since it's barely even a thing yet, it might wildly change since that's part of the Valve MO.
- The thing is I don't think it has anything to offer to bring in people from outside the genre. Some people really enjoy it but you kinda have to already be into that kind of thing (DOTA).
- It's big and complicated and smooth but ultimately nothing special

Anyone have an invite for Deadlock?

My immediate emotional reaction is to dunk on you. Boo hoo, a company won't make a game you want. But you're missing the valve you grew up with, and gaming is worse off now. Multiplayer games with subscription models and microtransactions have become the default, and we all feel it.
For me Deadlock has great characters, lore, new interesting mechanics, and only surface level similarities with DOTA. I'm not upset about it really. Just happy Valve is making anything again. Maybe I'm worn down, but so many big companies take but shits everyday I'm just happy to see one building good shit. (And it's free!)
- So you said "boo hoo" to people that don't like how microstransactions, subscription models, and the like? You are not upset that the state of gaming in AAA landscape have degraded?
  I say to you, "Waaa waaa" then.
  
  Lol nope, Deadlock has nothing like that in it. It's an excellent example of what we would ask for in our online multiplayer games.
  I am not happy about it, but complaining about Deadlock is spitting on what we should be rewarding imo

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