It happens 🤷

With all the UI changes on every version in the last few years that simply isn't true. Windows is becoming harder and harder to use even if you know what you are doing, much less if you don't know half the computer related terminology.

Actually, not really. It's becoming more like what a smart device would look/feel, which is what most people are accustomed to anyway by now. Sure, options and settings get removed left and right, but that is not a concern for your every day Joe. They just need something to do their taxes in or watch a movie or play a few dumb clips on YT, that's it. Oh and of course it comes preinstalled with the computer, so they can do all that out of the box, great!

You ask any person that uses MS Office whether they like the pre-2007 menu layout (1997-2003) of Office or the new (post-2007) menu layout, you'll always get the same answer, the post-2007 is better. Why? I really have no idea, but they say it's better. Maybe it's the thing with the icon buttons, or just having a ribbon with the most used tools, IDK. My point is, LibreOffice uses the pre-2007 classical layout. For most people, this is confusing. I find it simple and elegant, the way a GUI text/spreadsheet editor should look and feel. But, than again, I'm with computers since I was a kid, so drop down menus are not a new thing for me. People rarely use any menu that's not a full screen one (or at least one that's big enough to take away at least half the screen). Why? IDK, but I think smart devices are to blame for that.
- options and settings get removed left and right,
  
  That is bad but what bothers me more is that they get moved every time they publish a new version and for no real reason considering the average person won't access them anyway.
  
  They want even those power users that are used to tweaking the OS to not tweak the OS and just get used to the new defaults (whatever they might be). A perfect example being no thin taskbar in Win11. Why? IDK, you tell me 🤷. Not everyone has a FullHD monitor (I don't), but hey, maybe you need to buy a new one 😒. Consumerism maybe behind this, but I can't be certain.
  
  In any case, most users will eventually get accustomed to the new defaults. Very few users will say "f this" and switch to another OS and they don't actually care about those users, cuz they would have switched eventually anyway (if it wasn't for this, some other thing most probably).
Unfortunately, Windows becoming better and better. You can literally run Linux while running Windows (that's why coders still use Windows) and now you can even remove pre installed bloatware. Can you imagine? They even copy KDE look!
- Are you talking about WSL!? WSL is not even close to actual Linux. Additionally, if I need to run Linux while using Windows, I will be using a VM like a seasoned professional, not the Windows equivalent of Wine in 2008.
  
  Can you describe the essentials of what WSL is? Does it map UNIX file structure to Windows' one? Can I access the Windows FS through it? Does it have POSIX commands?
  
  I heard/seen a lot of people using either WSL or "Ubuntu terminal" and I don't have any interest because I don't plan on using anything like this in my life, but I do want to at least understand what benefits it brings and can you replicate the true Linux terminal experience on Windows without creating a VM that have different FS from the host. Basically, I want to know if I still have any strings that I can pull to convert people to Linux, because there amount of such strings decreases every so slightly with every year, it seems.
  
  Put simply, Linux is a kernel; WSL is a partial emulator of that kernel with exceedingly little support for the programs that attract people to it.
  
  As one popular example, there's no support for anything graphical. I've heard a lot about how the feature is coming, but I've yet to meet anyone who got it to work.
  
  Under-the-hood, you are still using the bloated Windows kernel, a now 30-year-old file system which was flawed to begin with (NTFS) or something newish that's closely related to it, and you're facing the same exhausting privacy violations that MS has been in hot water for; except you get to do it with bash instead.
  
  I tried it on my laptop that had Windows 11 pre-installed, and I cannot imagine how they're attracting anyone other than middle management and freshmen boot camp engineers with it. Apparently they found out that Ubuntu could be side-loaded in two minutes and panicked or something.
  
  Addendum: WSL2 is apparently less of an emulator and more of a stripped-down VM, but again, how that appeals to me more than a full VM with drag-and-drop support is beyond me. Maybe someone else can give you a use case that's worked for them.
  
  Thanks. Yeah, I've heard about WSL2 (as if the first implementation shouldn't have also been the last one). But many probably refer to both as WSL without version number.
  
  Sure thing.

I can't imagine walking around and just assuming everything is a magic black box and not have the slightest curiosity about how something works.

Believe it or not, not everyone is intersted in tech. Most people just live out their lives oblivious to how stuff works.

Like me for example, I have almost 0 interest in medicine. The human body is not exactly a black box to me, but I don't usually remember deseases names and stuff like that, even though some people remember all those things without putting too much effort into it.
- Medical stuff is not comparable to OS that you use on a daily basis. Everything just boils down that Windows was pre installed on such a huge amount of machines that "you have to be tech savvy" or whatever to use Linux. And the fact that no one wants to install anything that wasn't installed the first time, makes it that much harder to switch to Linux. But I believe that we all are slowly spreading the word of Linux more and more with each year. We definitely will have a year of Linux for sure (eventually).
  
  Everything just boils down that Windows was pre installed on such a huge amount of machines that "you have to be tech savvy" or whatever to use Linux.
  
  Yes, I would agree that having Windows preinstalled on almost every brand name PC/laptop there is out there is the main reason why things are what they are.
  
  But, I'd also argue that, from your everyday user's stand point, Windows is a lot easier to get office work done. Everything is pretty much GUI based, there is no terminal in Windows (cmd and PowerShell are not the terminal, you can't do everything you can in a GUI in the cmd or in PowerShell, and vice versa, so it's not the same), so from a regular user's perspective, things are simpler.
  
  And the fact that no one wants to install anything that wasn't installed the first time, makes it that much harder to switch to Linux.
  
  Why bother changing something that works and gets the job done 🤷... plus, they gotta learn new things if they did that, why make their lives harder.
  
  Not everyone cares about libre software... or even know it exists.
  
  But I believe that we all are slowly spreading the word of Linux more and more with each year. We definitely will have a year of Linux for sure (eventually).
  
  If this does happen, this won't be within a year, it will be within several years (or a decade).
  
  But, I do agree that there are changes in a positive direction. Most software products (slosed source ones) now have at least a Debian/Ubuntu .deb package (which wasn't the case 10 years ago, which wasn't that long ago) and even do customer support for Linux (but only limited to that particular flavor of Linux which they provide the packages for... not an ideal scenario, but it's not bad either).
  
  So, yeah, I'm optimistic, but not too much. It might eventually happen, but not in the near future IMO.
  
  Windows is a lot easier to get office work done. Everything is pretty much GUI based
  
  No, most popular Linux distros have every GUI app you need to do your office work. What do you need? Office suite, file manager and browser? Check, check, check. Moreover, you don't have any office preinstalled on Windows and you even have to buy it (and the OS itself), or create a Microsoft account and use online, feature- and Internet-limited version. (With something like Fedora or Ubuntu you can run the live version from RAM from a USB drive, get done with your work, and you don't even have to install the OS, let alone buy it.)
  
  Why bother changing something that works and gets the job done 🤷… plus, they gotta learn new things if they did that, why make their lives harder.
  
  The point is that it would work the other way around, if Linux was mainstream (I'm already wet) and Windows was in the minority.
  
  Not everyone cares about libre software… or even know it exists.
  
  Yes.
  
  If this does happen, this won’t be within a year, it will be within several years (or a decade).
  
  We can only dream if this will happen within a year. But decades already have passed and look where Linux is at: dominating server market share, all the IoT devices, government related stuff, developers, free-believers, FOSS enjoyers. We have SteamOS, Steamdeck, other handheld devices that are Linux-based, Proton, Lutris, Wine and other stuff. We have a lot of progress already. Desktop market share year by year does show that Linux and alike take a bigger and bigger cut. Withing a decade, everything will probably run on RISC-V architecture (something already does) and Linux will probably only become stronger and its community and market share will only grow.
  
  Most software products [...] now have at least a Debian/Ubuntu .deb package
  
  Well, maybe not most, but definitely noticeable, if you search for/use it. I was very surprised to see Cisco Packet Tracer being available in a native .deb package (surprisingly, no one has created a comparable FOSS alternative thus far).
  
  limited to that particular flavor of Linux which they provide the packages for
  
  Side note. You don't always need the support, and the packages themselves can and do become available on other platforms. AUR and Nix repositories are the largest ones that have community-created packages that only available on Ubuntu or Fedora, etc.
  
  So, yeah, I’m optimistic, but not too much. It might eventually happen, but not in the near future IMO.
  
  I'm sure the year of Linux will happen before I die, or at least the next generation after me will have it. The progress is really huge and kinda becomes faster with every few years.
  
  No, most popular Linux distros have every GUI app you need to do your office work. What do you need? Office suite, file manager and browser? Check, check, check. Moreover, you don't have any office preinstalled on Windows and you even have to buy it (and the OS itself), or create a Microsoft account and use online, feature- and Internet-limited version.
  
  Yes, but have you looked at how LibreOffice looks? It looks like MS Office 1997-2003. Personally, I love that, but ask any MS Office user out there that's not into tech and just wants to get the job done, you'll always get the same answer, MS Office post 2007 with the ribbon interface is a lot better. People are used to that. If they'd have to chose between spending a little money and learning something new, guess what, they choose spending a little money. I know, it baffles me as well, but numbers don't lie.
  
  And they usually see the whole MS account tied with office stuff thing as a feature, not as a drawback. Sure, they don't get to use all the tools that the sute can offer, but who needs calcs in spreadsheets or math equations in a text editor anyway, that's for geeks 😒.
  
  Basically, if they can write a few words and insert an image here and there, that's more than enough for most people's needs. Sure, they pay for that, which they can get for free, but you don't see LibreOffice ads in Windows, do you 🤷.
  
  Side note. You don't always need the support, and the packages themselves can and do become available on other platforms. AUR and Nix repositories are the largest ones that have community-created packages that only available on Ubuntu or Fedora, etc.
  
  Thay is what I actually meant, we kinda troubleshoot our own packages, even if they're repackaged from a closed source deb/rpm. If the dependencies are there and compiled against whatever is needed for the package to run, I don't really see a reason not to offer support for other distros, or at least make a subforum or whatever for those that want to repackage stuff for other distros, so they can at least gather in one place and discuss issues regarding repackaging, with some guidelines> from the support staff of the product. But unfortunatelly, that's rarely the case, that was my point.
  
  I thought linux dominating server space was natural, after downfall of unix. Doesn't it?
Except for the fact, that you do that to plenty of other disciplines of life. It is simply that some people need a computer to work, they don't need one as a hobby. They don't want to "learn a new thing" they want their machine to output some calculations in excel. Same as you don't learn woodworking when ordering a table from Ikea, or learning medicine when going to a checkup.
- Same as you don’t learn woodworking when ordering a table from Ikea, or learning medicine when going to a checkup.
  
  Maybe I'm different than most, but I DO wonder how that table is made, and I do try to educate myself on how the medicines I take actually work. There's been times I've wasted almost an entire day binging Wikipedia.
  
  I'm not saying I have in depth knowledge of fields outside my own, but I do make an attempt. Like, I'm not a gearhead at all, and I only care about cars being able to take me to work and back. But I do know how internal combustion works, and I have a general understanding of the components of an engine.
  
  You're an inqusitive mind (so am I) and there is nothing wrong with that.
  
  But, do understand that most people aren't. Either because they didn't have proper guidance when they were young or just have no interest in involving themselves in new things, doesn't really matter, the fact is that, yes, most people don't really care how stuff works.
  
  You might surround yourself with people that are like you, so you don't see the other ones. Trust me when I say this, most people are not like you. I'd say about 5 to 10% of people are like you, that's it.
  
  A day on wikipedia doesn't get you "installed linux and is actively using it at work" level of knowledge. For cars, the better analogy would be "I can replace the transmission in my car". Everyone knows how "computers work". Not a lot of people know how to install a different OS.
  
  Exactly, good analogy 👍.
  
  Anyone who wants to install a different OS on a regular desktop is able to do it quite easily, if they can read instructions on a website and an hour or two. It's similar to swapping tires, which is not difficult but it's important to read up/get shown how to do it.
  
  But maybe I overestimate the difficulty of replacing the transmission.
- I don't think I really do. I always want to be able to fix all of the things I own so I always like to understand how they work. I don't always actually end up learning enough about them but it's not from lack of curiosity
  
  The same thing might apply to people that just don't know how to install another OS.
  
  I'll take my wife as an example, she knows how to work on a computer (Windows) in her sleep. Spreadsheets, documents, media, you name it. But, does she know how to work the command line? Absolutely not. If her Windows license is about to expire, she calls me. Her files get mangled up, she calls me. It's not her job to know these things, it's mine, she's a social worker, I work in IT.

Imagine having a CD in 2024 /s

Until I saw the /s I felt extremely old
- Not to suggest optical media is dead and forgotten but I also haven't had a computer with a disk drive in a decade.
Yeah, it's a DVD now, right?

... Right?
- Hell, I still burn stuff to DVDs 🤷.
- They do still out-sell BDs by more than 2:1, at least for movies and TV.

The point is that this is Linux community and majority understand that there is basically no reason in using Windows. But there are proprietary exceptions like games and stuff. I don't have Windows on my machine for years and I'm perfectly fine without it.

I'm not talking about "most people", because they all have been brainwashed by Microsoft and will refuse in adopting anything different than Windows. It comes pre installed basically everywhere.

No, that's ChromeOS. Windows still assumes some knowledge that you may take for granted, but someone who's never used a computer before might not know.

Not gonna lie I have no fucking clue what ChromeOS is
- It's the OS on Chromebooks
  
  Not gonna lie I didn't know Chromebooks were a thing up until now, let alone ever assume they'd have their own OS.
  
  thank you
  
  I'm a little surprised considering their aggressive as campaigns, the fact they've existed for over 10 years and that their market share is higher than the mac's
  
  It's called not keeping up with technology in general since a decade ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
  
  Seriously when I tell people I'm tech illiterate I mean it. I can't tell ya what all the different devices mean and I got introduced to Linux because I once had to recover data from my broken Windows computer 5-6 years ago and my pal gave me a disk. That was Ubuntu of all things too!
  
  I'm basically an old grandma lmaoo
  
  Fair enough, I guess you're the first tech illiterate I meet on such a niche social media as Lemmy
  
  I really only go where my friends drag me to. Same pal who introduced me to Linux, introduced me to Lemmy

Stop enabling normies, make them become tech literate or send them back to the stone-age (preferable).

That's not enabling, it's just how people are... most people anyway. They won't become tech literate of you send them to computer classes or tell them they need to learn stuff. Most people are lazy when it comes to using their brain. It's just how things are 🤷.

Personally I'm not tech illiterate; I'm just too lazy to reboot every time I want to hop on the decks and do some DJing or music production. Or play one of the few games that won't run on Linux. Or watch something in HDR.

I wish there was a way to instantly jump back and forth between OSes with a key combo, without having to resort to any sort of VM fuckery. Like how for a brief moment in the 90s you could buy an expansion card for your Mac that was an entire Windows PC on a single board. You do exactly what I described: instantly go back and forth between Mac and PC without having to close any programs. We should find a way to make that a thing again.

Regarding DJing, there is support now for quite a few MIDI DJ controllers in Linux, you should look and see if yours is supported 😉.
- Doubtful. It hasn't received neither a driver nor a firmware update since 2015, and new DJ hardware is expensive, so...
  
  Ummm... those are exactly the kind of devices that actually DO work in Linux 😂. Legacy hardware support is one of the things that Linux is know for.
  
  Even if it never worked in Linux before? I'll have to check it out. It would be nice to be able to use the latest version of Serato DJ without having to buy new hardware. (SDJ works in WINE, right? Is WINE even still a thing or have we evolved beyond that?)
  
  Serato DJ should work in Wine fine. Wine is more active as a project now than it ever was, thanks to Valve's Proton, which is bascially a Wine fork aimed at gaming on Linux through Steam. But, they push changes upstream (the Wine project), so Wine is really going fast forward now, they're up to version 8.something now, which is a big jump, considering it was at version 5 only a few years ago and that the project has been around for about 2 decades.
  
  Regarding DJ controllers and Wine... that might be a bit tricky, but it's worth a shot 🤷. Might require some manual library overrides or setups, but if the controller is supported in Linux (works fine with, let's say, Mixxx or Transitions DJ), it should be able to work in Wine as well.
The easy solution for that is a kvm switch. You have two pcs, and switch between them with a button press, keeping the same mouse, keyboard and monitor.

Best use is for personal PC and work laptop, but if you specifically want to switch between linux and windows pcs, then it should be fine if you use that.
- Yeah but I don't want two PCs. The PC room gets hot enough as-is. I have to turn off the heat when doing a resource-intensive task to keep the room from heating up to 80°F! In January!
  
  Not to mention the costs. Upfront and the increased power bill. No way am I buying a second 4090 and having one PC using up 150w+ sitting idle while I'm using the other one. Out of my budget.
  
  Why would you have a 4090 in the non-gaming one? A 2 or 3 generation old laptop used for $150 can idle Linux far below 120W and run most things as fast as a current gen Windows machine. I have my pc and my work laptop both plugged into a huge monitor with 2 buttons to switch input, and ShareMouse to share the same keyboard and mouse. I preferred Synergy, and then the Barrier fork, and then the Input-Leap fork because they are freeware, but they took away local admin and sudo permissions on the work computer, so I needed an alternative that didn't need elevated privileges and don't want a hardware KVM switch.
  
  Because maybe I want to game on multiple OSes?
  
  This argument is getting out of control. All I want is a some technology to come around that lets me switch between OSes instantly without rebooting or building a second PC. That was my original point. We're going off on a tangent, here.