Michigan rep quits Democratic Socialists of America over NYC rally
Michigan rep quits Democratic Socialists of America over NYC rally
Rep. Shri Thanedar (D-Mich.) is revoking his membership in the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) over its promotion of what he said was an antisemitic rally in New York City. “Today, I am offi…
Rep. Shri Thanedar (D-Mich.) is revoking his membership in the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) over its promotion of what he said was an antisemitic rally in New York City.
“Today, I am officially renouncing my membership in the Democratic Socialists of America. After the brutal terrorist attacks on Israel, which included the indiscriminate murder, rape, and kidnapping of innocent men, women, and children, I can no longer associate with an organization unwilling to call out terrorism in all its forms,” he wrote in a statement Wednesday.
Thanedar, formerly one of the six members of the DSA in Congress, said that a rally in Times Square on Sunday pushed him to make the decision.
The rally, held just one day after Hamas launched its deadly attack on Israel, was also denounced by other lawmakers and officials.
“Sunday’s hate-filled and antisemitic rally in New York City, promoted by the NYC-DSA, makes it impossible for me to continue my affiliation. I stand with Israel and its right to defend itself. There is no place for moral equivocation in the face of unadulterated evil as we have seen from Hamas,” Thanedar added.
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The narrative of “the far left is antisemitic” is getting pushed real hard for some reason.
"Moderate" Dems and Republicans love pretending that disliking Israel's political stances and human rights abuses is antisemitic.
It's taking a while, but the voting public is finally starting to call them on that bullshit.
They're not necessarily antisemitic, though I think the far right sees an opportunity there and is actively infiltrating. Horseshoe theory.
But they are definitely anti-Israel (which is fine) and pro-"anyone who fights against Israel" (which is not at all fine).
Sometimes the enemy of my enemy is just another enemy, and the far left doesn't understand that about the Israel-Palestine conflict. Israel and the IDF are both terrible.
Rallying against Israel - cool
Rallying against Jews - not cool (though I don't think this is happening to any serious degree on the far left)
Rallying for Palestinians - cool
Rallying for Hamas - not cool
Was the rally in NYC pro Palestine or pro Hamas? I've been seeing people catch shit for supporting Palestinians as though they were supporting Hamas.
Because everything has to be black and white in serive of nobody needing to think, you can't be anti-Bebe without being antisemitic and you can't be pro-Palestinian without being a terrorist. Just like saying, "cops shouldn't kill so many black people" is "pro-crime" and "immigration is too complex and time consuming" means to support open borders.
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.
At one point, they were chanting '700', in reference to the number of dead Israelis at the moment.
I don't know about this one in particular. I've seen reports saying different things.
When a not-small chunk of far left activists are saying "I see no real problem with the indiscriminate murder, rape, and kidnapping of Jews, so long as it's done in the name of decolonization", is it that surprising?
I really don't think it's a particularly large ask to be able to denounce Israel's actions against Palestinians, and be able to say that this does not justify murdering 200 civilians at a music festival.
“I see no real problem with the indiscriminate murder, rape, and kidnapping of Jews, so long as it’s done in the name of decolonization”
Who is saying that?
Tons of people equate (falsely) the statement “this was an inevitability given the way Palestinians are treated” with “Hamas should wipe out the Jews”.
And the talking heads right up through the State Department love that.
I'm sure some of this is because it's an emotive topic and people are fired up right now. Other people seem to be arguing in bad faith in an attempt to silence dissenting opinions.
Yeah it's a geopolitical analysis, not a valuation statement on the attack.
That said, there has been a rise in antisemitism.
The idea that "An oppressed people have the right to resist by any means they deem necessary" has been quite popular amongst certain leftist schools of thought and has been shared by more than a few people I personally known.
I take it you've probably seen slogans to the effect of "Decolonization isn't pretty". The implication is pretty obvious.
I asked who is saying that. A few people you know is hardly a reliable source.
https://lemmy.world/comment/4259548
https://lemmy.world/comment/4267954
https://lemmy.world/comment/4268554
https://lemmy.world/comment/4266790
https://lemmy.world/comment/4286703
Just for the people I've called out. There's loads of em
They need hostages and bodies to deter aerial bombing and to strengthen their negotiating position. What else are they going to do? It sucks that civilians get harmed, but that blood is on Israel’s hands because ultimately they are the aggressor and occupier.
I mean, you can't get any more mask off than this. It's explicitly saying "anything done to harm Israelis is justifiable because they are an occupier".
Before I go looking for sources, let me honestly ask, if I do find widely shared social media pages or statements from progressive groups espousing this idea, will that actually affect your views in any way? How will you views change if I do find evidence of this?
It doesn't really matter at this stage. We've already established that you've been less than truthful.
Well, if you're openly stating that no amount of evidence will change your mind, I'm glad I can save my time.
Just don't go telling people you care at all about truth though, if that's your mindset.
No, I’m saying that you’ve posted fiction and now you want to scrabble around for anything you can find to try and validate yourself. I’m saying I don’t care what you do because you’ve given me no reason to. Clear?
"I will not accept any evidence presented by you because I've a priori decided that everything you say is a lie. Also, somehow I'm pretending to be rational."
What was the fiction I posted, anyway? I made a claim that non-trivial groups have supported the idea that essentially any kind of "resistance" is justified, you denied that without evidence, and then stated that you will not accept any evidence I present.
I’ve seen more articles about it than I’ve seen anyone with any cachet on the left ever say any shit like that. The articles are always either bullshit (like out-of-context quotes or conflating Hamas with Palestinian refugees) or quote some rando on Twitter or from a campus organization no one has ever heard of before now.
That fucking rally in NYC they’re associating with DSA had nothing to do with DSA. Apparently, the local chapter mentioned it on Twitter before the Hamas attacks? DSA didn’t organize it, participate in it, or endorse it. But for some reason, AOC has to denounce it?
Same here. While I'm sure there are some extremists who might think that, they're a tiny minority and nobody of any importance has said anything remotely close.
Replied to the wrong person, sorry!
Bibi has done more to support Hamas than anyone on the left ever could, but why aren't you calling that war criminal out?
Bold of you to think I like him, when I'd say he's probably one of the single individuals that's done the most to contribute to the environment that caused this.
Still doesn't excuse what happened last weekend. Nothing can. There is a difference between acknowledging how some of Israel's actions have brewed a large amount of legitimate anger and resentment and thinking that that anger and resentment can ever justify indiscriminate murder of civilians.
And before you ask, yes, I think cutting off water, power, and aid is an excessive response.
Good, we agree Israelis and Palestinians deserve better.
But I am so over complaining about random no names w/ bad takes when they have no power.
Good, we agree Israelis and Palestinians deserve better.
We all deserve better. We need to stop giving shitheads power.
That's not what they're saying. You're massaging the message to fit your personal political narrative. Leftists aren't celebrating dead Israelis. Leftists are calling for the complete decolonization of Palestine by the Israeli occupiers. This just happens to be a good time to have your message heard.
This just happens to be a good time to have your message heard.
I think it's possibly the worst time, because the people who most need to hear it are especially not in a mood for nuance.
Literally seen that exact sentiment a lot on Lemmy. "Anything Hamas does is completely excusable because they are fighting against colonizers. Including rape and murder of children."
Hexbears are half troll farm, a quarter 4chan Nazi larper, and a quarter confused teenagers who just found out how many fascist regimes America has supported.
And some of those leftists are saying that any actions taken in pursuit of that decolonization are justifiable.
At the Times Square rally on Sunday, some of the demonstrators were chanting "700", which was the official death toll of Israelis at the time. I don't think it's a crazy stretch to say that this is literally celebrating dead Israelis. At a rally in Sydney, some were chanting "Gas the Jews".
What I am not saying is that all leftists are anti-semites or that all are blissfully cheering for the murder of all Israelis. What I'm saying is that this is a perspective that is present among some people on the furthest ends of the left, and it's a problem that we cannot be blind towards. And before you say it, yes, there is also a lot of Islamophobia on the other side; some at the pro-Israel rally in NYC were chanting something to the effect of flatten Gaza, which is obviously horrific and disgusting as well.
Some links:
Harvard student orgs claiming that Israel is entirely to blame for all violence, with the obvious implication that Hamas militants can thus not be blamed for rape and murder.
Streamer Hasan responding to civilian violence with "there’s no perfect retaliation to apartheid".
Palestinian influencer with nearly a million followers saying "No more condemning Palestinian resistance. Radical change requires radical moves" to 71,000 likes. I don't think murdering infants is an act of radical resistance, personally. This guy also said "Let them call it terrorism. We call it liberation".
Leftist podcast Upstream stating "palestinians are reminding us that decolonization is not abstract. it is material. it is violent. it is not popular, it will be resisted and debated by the entire structures of the monstrous colonial world. and it is the only way forward, and it is the only path of life," to 45,000 likes.
YouTuber Second Thought stating that there is no such thing as an Israeli civilian and that all Israelis are valid military and hostage targets.
Former Greek finance minister saying "The criminals are here not Hamas. Not even the Israeli settlers who are killing Palestinians. The criminals are Europeans." Firstly, if you murder a baby, you are a criminal. Secondly, most Israelis are not of Ashkenazi descent.
I could go on. Again, my point is not to say that the entire left is like this; responses by actual left-leaning politicians that will always speak towards popularly accepted views show that well enough. But it also cannot be denied that there is a segment of the left that will tolerate, and yes, even celebrate violence so long as it fits their political aim. This should not be tolerated, both because it is deeply immoral, and also because it is political poison.
Edit: Just as I find more
Posters for missing Israelis being torn down in the UK.
That’s not what they’re saying.
The centrists have their narrative. They won't deviate from it. They've been aching for years to have common ground with the Republicans they all want to be.
You can see it in this very thread. People suggesting AOC isn't left enough because she condemned the DSA, in a statement that explicitly called out Israel's unacceptable oppression of Palestinians.
Let's not make this a centrist vs left issue. Everyone should agree that killing innocent people is bad. That means damning the Hamas attack and also damning the Israeli government's constant shelling of Palestine. We need to call out anyone who excuses one or the other, and from what I can tell, there really aren't political lines here.
Let’s not make this a centrist vs left issue.
When centrists stop trying to tar anyone to their left as antisemitic, it'll stop being a centrist versus left issue.
When you say centrists, do you mean random commenters like us, or politicians? Can you provide examples?
Before I proceed, I want it to be known that of fucking course I condemn Hamas.
When I say centrists, I mean centrists. Commenters, pundits and politicians.
Politicians: This guy, for starters. Making a huge show of taking his ball and going home from the DSA, which wasn't involved in the rally in question, but that's not going to stop him. Neither is not being a member if the DSA, which had already kicked him out for supporting India's answer to Trump.
Pundits: There's the "the left is doomed because it REFUSES to condemn MASS MURDER" article that one of this community's centrists posted, there's this article about a grandstanding buffoon, and the article about how the Squad hasn't condemned Hamas loudly enough as examples.
Commenters: This thread. We have one guy starting off with how it's a small fringe of the left that support Hamas, and then goes on to say that this is the natural progression of being to his left because horseshoe theory. There's the guy who had a fucking copypasta of grievances against the left ready to go.
In any event, I find it interesting how no one, centrist or republican, has been expected to denounce Israel's actions at any time over the course of the past few decades, and how unconditional support for Israel's actions is considered a mainstream position.
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This guy is a tool, totally agree. Supporting Modi is incompatible with being left wing. I've pretty much written the actual politician off as not serious.
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Pundits -- oddly enough, I think AOC has made the best statement on this crisis. She did a fantastic job of not making any of the violence sound justified, while condemning all of it.
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Comments are always hard to judge for if they're really fringe or not. I will say I've seen some leftists carry water for Hamas, but they're the tankie type that doesn't really understand leftism to start with. And I think that's who people are thinking of here when someone says "the left"
You also make an excellent point about how support for Israel never needs to be qualified but for Palestine it does.
Sorry if this comment sounds a bit rushed, I didn't want to leave you hanging, but I've only just heard of Israel telling all of Gaza to evacuate in 24 hours, and I can't get it out of my head. It's utterly chilling. I fear that whatever they're about to do will change the conversation's dynamic entirely.
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