Trump says Palestinians have ‘no alternative’ but to leave Gaza

EtHnIc ClEaNsInG iS bEtTeR tHaN gEnOcIdE.

It's different. Not "better".
- Not different. The Clinton admin invented the term whole cloth in order to not have to get involved in Rwanda.
- It is not different. They used genocide to ethnically cleanse Palestine.
- Please delineate the differences.
  
  Nono you see, Trump loves Palestinians, he’s moving them to a safe space so they don’t get genocided again.
  Their land? Well he will take care of it in the meantime… What a humanitarian guy! /s
  
  People really seem to think there is some sort of major dividing line between ethnic cleansing and genocide and I do not get it.
  
  The dividing line is how good your PR is.
- While your equivocate, people are literally dying.
  But as long as you feel ok.
  
  That's literally been the last year and you felt fine the whole time.
  
  Please, tell me more about how I feel.

Notice how all those bot accounts that were so active leading up to the election have completely vanished from the internet now? Yeah.

notice how all the dnc drifters are now partying in Hawaii instead of fighting for their voters ?
They're still a few on .ml claiming Gaza/Palestinians are better under trump. Absolutely nothing will convince them otherwise
- Not all people with bullshit opinions are bots. But I think the bots make those people think their opinions are more valid than they actually are, which causes them to be more active.
The difference in the PoliticalCompassMeme subreddit is night and day. One of the few places you can still bully fascists without getting banned.
- Why did anyone bring that shit hole here???

I’m sorry, but were the democrats stopping the thing?

Stop framing this like this is on the people who didn’t want the genocide to happen. It’s such a weird victory lap I see people here taking. Without fail.

News: something horrible has happened in Gaza.

a bunch of people on lemmy: I was so right.

You’re reading news about people being ethnically cleansed and you’re patting yourselves on the back. What in the fuck.

The establishment US and the ownership class are all-in on this genocide. We are exactly where we would’ve been if Kamala had won. They all support Israel. The democrats just had to do some surface level finger wagging because they knew they were relying on the votes of a bunch of people who see how genocide for what it is. They were lying to you and you’re acting like Israel and the Palestinians aren’t on the same exact path they would’ve been had Kamala won.

You all are sick for taking these horrible stories as some kind of victory. The ownership class is pitting you against republicans, and you against the people who didnt vote exactly like you did in an election. And why was that? Because the people you voted for were enabling a fucking genocide.

As was said elsewhere, history won’t be kind to Biden, trump, Kamala, and Netanyahu. But it won’t be kind to the people who were looking the other way to vote for the enablers.

We were handed a shit sandwich. We all had zero good choices. So some people decided they couldn’t bring themselves to vote for enablers of genocide. That isn’t an incorrect decision. Stop fighting the people who—I mean, I’m assuming(?) you don’t support the genocide…—want to see the genocide end. Because what could you possibly be getting out of that but all these back pats you’re giving yourself?

Oh fuck off. Kamala wouldn't have been cheering for ethnic cleansing.
If you have two choices and one is less bad, you choose the less bad one.
- Nah, she would have just continued to do it quietly, just like Biden did. You people are fucking monsters man. Absolutely no sympathy for the Palestinian people.
  
  Ask a Palestinian how they feel about your sympathy
  
  None of these people bother to talk to Palestinians. They don't have to. They know what the simple little people over there need.
  
  Look below your comment and see what a Palestinian thinks. And then kindly shut the fuck up with your false sense of superiority.
  
  You mean what one single Palestinian, if they are in fact Palestinian, thinks.
  As far as a false sense of superiority, I have no sense of superiority at all. There is no doubt in my mind that I am the most inferior person you have ever talked to.
  
  Ive done protests with lots of Palestinian Canadians, and I know exactly what they think. YOURE the one being presumptuous here, and even in this thread you’re trying to discounting what an actual Palestinian is saying to you. You’re fucking delusional man.
  
  Just because I'm far inferior to you doesn't make it okay to insult me. Especially when it's an insult about something that isn't true and there are far more actual terrible things you could insult me over.
  I mean if you're determined to insult me, at least do it over something I deserve.
  I can help you out, if you'd like.
  
  You do know that we also have internet and stuff right? None of us congratulates you for voting the Democrats. You people are sick for using us to bully people who didn’t vote for your party.
  The genocide unfolded under the Biden administration and the ethnic cleansing and apartheid already happened under Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton and whoever was before that. To us you are all the same. Trump is a horrible person and he's saying the quiet part out loud, but that doesn’t make all the other politicians any better.
  
  Sorry about all these people man. And I am so fucking sorry about what’s happening in your country. Been protesting it for 15 or so years now in Canada and it seems to have done fuck all. And you can’t even talk to liberals about it because they’ve gone totally mask off about caring about you guys. I don’t know what to say man.
  
  Thanks for your kind words. It’s also shocking to me to see, but here we are. For now, the situation remains dire for us but the public opinion has changed in a way that I have never considered possible. Your protests may not have stopped the genocide, but there’s a whole new generation of people who are pro-Palestine now, all around the world. And to me that means a lot, even the people in Gaza have seen the student protests, it gives everyone hope.
  I just really hope that we’ll have enough time left to change things. And from the protests myself I became more concerned with other issues as well, and I hope to spread that in my community.
  
  Well thanks man. I’m not gonna stop trying. Don’t give up hope.
  
  Yup, all the bad shit was happening no matter who got in. So you chose between keeping the US running and having a chance for change or installing the 4th Reich and you chose the latter.
  
  I am not American and I don’t live in the US. I am Palestinian so I chose nothing. I just had the questionable luck to be born in a place where Zionists wanted to build a colony.
  Poster said ask a Palestinian and here I am. You chose what you believed was right for you. But don’t use me to justify that.
  
  Ask a Palestinian in Gaza how they feel about Biden providing "Israel" enough explosives to kill a million people.
  
  And not murdering our country and doing permanent long term damage...I'll take the trade and hope people can work against it. Noone is going against it now. Morons.
  
  Nobody was going against it before. What don’t you guys understand about this?
  
  It wasn't an issue at the top of the list of concerns. There were more important things. Single-issue bullshit.
  
  That single issue is genocide you nazi fuck.
  
  What specifically have you done to help Palestinians other than not vote for certain people and berate people on the internet?
  
  "Vote for candidate A who supports genocide."
  "Vote for candidate B who supports genocide."
  "Don't vote and be loud about it so that in the next election, the losing party is hopefully forced to have a candidate that doesn't support genocide to get your vote."
  Which one of those 3 has at least a theoretical chance of helping (even if it may be too late by then)?
  I am not saying it was worth it, considering how much worse Trump is on most other issues. It probably wasn't. But if Palestine is the only issue you care about, it makes sense to not vote.
  
  So the answer is nothing. You've done nothing.
  Not one phone call, not one form e-mail, let alone actually go somewhere.
  How many Palestinians have you even talked to about their needs and desires?
  
  I’ve contacted MLA’s and MP’s about it for every single federal and provincial election for the last 15 years as well and going to protests regularly to stop this shit. It doesn’t work because liberals won’t also pressure politicians and instead would call out leftists for not supporting the right genocide candidate.
  
  Got it, everyone give up and don't push politicians to do the right thing because it doesn't work.
  
  Not at all what I said but go off.
  
  You literally said it doesn't work. You used those three specific words in that order.
  
  Ah right, because US politicians care so much about calls and e-mails from Europeans who can't vote for them.
  
  Plenty of European politicians support this war too. How many of them did you contact?
  And you didn't answer my question about Palestinians. How many have you talked to about their needs and desires?
  
  Oh, right, I forgot I should have checked first if they wanted a bomb dropped on their head or literally anything else.
  Plenty of European politicians support this war too. How many of them did you contact?
  Thankfully in Europe, we have more choices than two genocidal maniacs, so I could just vote for ones that don't support genocide.
  Not that it changes much, since US is the only country actually sending significant material support to Israel and diplomatically shields them from consequences.
  
  Got it. You know what is best for the little Palestinians and you don't have to do any hard work, just vote.
  Also, this is just a lie:
  Not that it changes much, since US is the only country actually sending significant material support to Israel and diplomatically shields them from consequences.
  I mean let's just start with Germany... https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/scholz-says-germany-will-supply-israel-with-weapons-defend-itself-2024-10-17/
- So that’s the difference? The fact that trump is saying it out loud?
  So between a clearly labeled rat poison box, and one that says “probably not rat poison,” the right choice is the one that’s saying it’s not?
  Because the genocide was in full swing when Biden was in office. They made some minor surface level pauses in specific types of bombs…and then started shipping them again. They cut the amount of weapons, and then upped it again.
  I’m not saying trump is not worse. But you people are entirely missing the point if you think people who wouldn’t sign their names to a genocide are the ones in the wrong.
  You all obviously missed the point further down my comment, where I said stop fighting people who want to end the genocide? Because, that’s what you want, right? If it is, you wouldn’t be doing what you’re doing.
  
  Dude just stop. I'm going to hold my tongue...
  
  Hold your tongue? This is a comment section. Say it.
  I’m trying to have a nuanced discussion here. Because I think it’s important. If you think throwing insults or something (why else would you need to “hold your tongue?”) is your response, then do it.
  I joined this discussion to make my point because I think we’re all (supposedly) on the same side. And I think there is good to be found in a discussion between people on the same side not seeing eye to eye at the moment. I think that driving a wedge in the anti genocide side of the fence (because this is either a pro-genocide or anti-genocide discussion…right?) is wrong. And I want people to stop doing it. And I think the reason they’re doing it is a very self-serving reason.
  That’s not an attack of you all. It’s…an opinion. And, like I said, this is a comment section.
  
  On what? On how much better you think Bidens and Harris support to Israels genocide was? I would prefer you've stop rationalizing genocide.
  
  There was far more than Gaza at stake. Clown.
  
  Oh? Well that clears them of all guilt!
  
  Buddy, we're all impressed that you know what Gaza is (finally).
  
  Oh, i see, you where always a bag of air. cool cool.
  
  GOT EEEMM
Stop framing this like this is on the people who didn’t want the genocide to happen. It’s such a weird victory lap I see people here taking. Without fail.
Our blue conservative "allies" want nothing to do with representing any of us. That's why the way forward is pushing for electoral reform so the democrats will be forced to actually compete for our vote.
I get the feeling dems are so frail and fragile from using First-past-the-post voting as a crutch for so long that they wouldn't be able to compete. They certainly can't compete with the circus that is the republican party.
Fucking embarrassing.
Democrats know keeping 3rd parties from participating is a existential struggle for them. They are clearly willing to sacrifice the USA over giving up this hostage scenario.
Unelectable.
Choice was the status quo and pushing towards a solution or palestines almost immediate erasure to violent cheers. Nothing to do with being 'right', about hoping yous aren't completely cooked and see sense. Just as far gone as MAGA unfortunately.
- “My candidate was the right choice and you’re wrong. You’re basically maga.”
  You have to see how insane that is.
  I’m not saying trump isn’t worse. I’m saying if you people cared about the genocide, you wouldn’t be trying to throw anti-genocide people under the bus. You just wouldn’t. You would be working with them toward a solution.
  The other powerless people aren’t your enemy. The ownership class that is committing and profiting off this genocide is. But you all are taking aim at the underclass because it gives you a high horse to ride.
  That is wrong. That’s my point. But you all just doubled down in the face of that sentiment.
  
  I’m an anarchist dumbass I can just see the reality. Yous are as gone as maga. Victims of propaganda and acting against your own (and the palestines interests).
  You aren’t anti-genocide. As we told you before the election, your outcome of your stance is pro genocide. And now the Palestinians have to pay the price for your stupidity.
  
  That’s a depressingly binary outlook for an anarchist.
  Are you sure you’re an anarchist? Because thinking that there was either the choice to vote for one party or “you’re brainwashed” just doesn’t exactly scream anarchist to me.
  You’re overlooking my entire point to make a binary, deterministic point about only one decision being right in this scenario. You’re an anarchist telling people that f they didn’t vote for a political party complicit in a genocide, that they’re just as bad as the genocidal forces? There is legitimately no sense to be found in this.
  I’m more of a Chomsky-esque anarchist myself when it comes to voting. And even I don’t see how you could make this claim. Under normal circumstances, I would be with you between trump and Kamala. But there is a fucking genocide happening, in the US’s pocket, and there were two pro genocide candidates on the ticket. Faulting the people against the genocide for the scenario being our reality, and not the people who wouldn’t break with the idea that the genocide was something to support? You’re not an anarchist, you’re a bootlicker.
  You’re throwing the people who couldn’t stomach the fact that a genocide would’ve been done in their name had your candidate won under the bus? Not those who wouldn’t listen to the millions of people telling them they’re wrong and blindly kept supporting the slaughter? With historians and the world community and the activists screaming that we are witnessing a Nazi-esque ethnic cleansing, you’re not faulting the politicians who only see the opportunity for influence and government contracts?
  You’re faulting…activists and peacemongers. For not voting for your candidate?
  I just want to be sure I’m understanding your position here.
  Don’t come at me with some binary explanation that “well the other side is worse,” I want you to do your best to shed that two party mentality to think about this in the larger picture, and then reaffirm your point for me, here.
  
  Neo-proudhonian mutualist with a dash of agorist praxis via non-violent counter-economic (r)evolution.
  Changing the system by voting is not possible. The best we can do is pick the one closest aligned with our values, that will allow us to effectively organise (vs Trump turning the military on protestors/leftists), buy the Palestinians some time (vs literal cheering for ethnic clensing).
  Faulting the people against the genocide for the scenario being our reality, and not the people who wouldn’t break with the idea that the genocide was something to support? You’re not an anarchist, you’re a bootlicker.
  They're statists and authoritarians—I don’t expect them to listen to reason, and I can’t change that. My criticism is directed at those who actively pushed for a worsening of the genocide by enabling that screwball to take power, rather than supporting actual anti-genocide leftists who understand that, flawed as it is, liberalism is still preferable to outright fascism. You should know better. Instead, you keep shifting between shill gambit, baseless accusations and bad-faith comparisons.
  Chomsky also acknowledged pragmatic short-term engagement with existing structures (e.g., voting for the lesser evil) while aiming for long-term abolition of oppressive institutions, FYI.
  In the 2016 and 2020 U.S. elections, he argued that it was morally imperative to vote for the Democratic candidate because the alternative would be worse for marginalized communities, climate policy, and global stability.
  https://chomsky.info/an-eight-point-brief-for-lev-lesser-evil-voting
  Conclusion: by dismissing a “lesser evil” electoral logic and thereby increasing the potential for Clinton’s defeat the left will undermine what should be at the core of what it claims to be attempting to achieve.
  
  I'm going to throw so-called anti-genocide people under the bus because it's very clear that most of you didn't do dick about it and thought that being jerks to people online and not voting for certain candidates was all that was needed to be done, while I was working my ass off in emails, on the phone and in person.
  And I get berated when I bring that up by so-called anti-genocide people too.
  
  So you’re painting me with the broadest brush imaginable because you can only think in binary terms.
  Because I hold the belief that not voting for Kamala Harris wasn’t the immoral choice, that must mean I’m just like everyone you’re imagining? You don’t know me, A. And B., I never said I did or didn’t vote one way or another.
  I’m just so sick of this attitude I see all over lemmy. It’s the opposite of critical thought. It’s shouting “I was right” into a cave because you know you’ll hear your opinion validated and your ego stroked.
  I just think if people here cared about the genocide and ending it, your position wouldn’t be so focused on you. It wouldn’t be so focused on the election that’s already over and how right you all were. When news came across your feeds about genocide and suffering, you wouldn’t frame it with your own personal choices.
  Because that is essentially throwing your hands up and saying, “well, my plan didn’t work, and it didn’t work because these people.”
  You all spend so much time back patting and laying blame at the feet of people who are against the genocide, that you’re driving a wedge into the anti genocide movement. Strictly for your own personal gain.
  At that point, you’re not anti-genocide, you’re anti-doing a goddamn thing about it.
  That is and has been my only point since I made a comment in this thread. I knew I was going to face a bunch of these types of comments, but I thought I’d be able to get my point across. And my point is that you need to take your heads out of the election and work with, not against, the working class. Because your allegiance to an ownership class representative proving you were right in your support doesn’t mean a goddamn thing when we’re talking about a fucking genocide.
  That’s what I’m trying to get you all to see. Because this echo chamber here where the prevailing thought is “undecideds are the enemy!” is so incredibly self-defeating and self-serving. Self-defeating if the end to the genocide is really what you want, and self-serving because it puts you on a high horse while shedding any and all responsibility.
  Changing that outlook is my entire point in this viper pit.
  
  At that point, you’re not anti-genocide, you’re anti-doing a goddamn thing about it.
  I didn't visit any politician's offices in the last two weeks since I'm new in the country we just fled to, but I still made sure to dedicate three hours last week to both emails and phone calls to various politicians. So I guess you're right. I am anti-doing a goddamn thing about it.
  What would you suggest I do?
  
  Well, since this discussion is about solidarity in the anti-genocide movement, as I’ve said many times, I would suggest everyone (and, excuse me if I mislabeled you as being against my initial point, but I’m having a discussion with a bunch of people) that you all stop trying to scapegoat other people who don’t want to see a genocide happen. Do all you want personally, that’s all great. But my entire point was that you all say, “I’m the real anti-genocider! And all these people are wrong!” No matter that they want what you supposedly want.
  Stop driving a wedge in the movement by high roading people who want the same thing you do. There’s a huge rash of this behavior, and that’s what I’m trying to call out. You can do all the good you want, but if you then go into the community to salt the earth behind you for all those who want what you do, you’re negating any good you’ve done.
  
  But my entire point was that you all say, “I’m the real anti-genocider! And all these people are wrong!” No matter that they want what you supposedly want.
  I said no such thing, nor did I even imply such a thing.
  If you want to tell people to stop things, tell yourself stop including me in the things you're saying about other people.
  I do a shitload to try to stop this genocide with what is in my extremely limited power and I have never even implied either of the things you have put in quotes.
  
  Whatever you have to tell yourself I guess, right?

80% of Israelis support ethnic cleansing of Gaza. If they actually attempt it, what makes you think Biden/Kamala would have tried to stop it?

I think the only difference is that Trump would cheer on the cleansing while Kamala would have tut tutted about it.

Kamala isn't dead. She hasn't fallen off the face of the Earth. Has she released any statement even now condemning the idea? She doesn't even have to fear AIPAC anymore. She has nothing to lose in condemning the idea. If she won't even release a statement condemning it now, what makes you think she would have lifted a finger to prevent it if she had been elected?

That was the whole point of the uncommitted movement. The only difference between Trump and Kamala's Israel policy is that Trump vocally supports war crimes, while Kamala quietly supports them.

Ooh, a statement. Well that's all she, or anyone else who supports Palestinians getting to stay alive and in their homes can do now. Everything we're discussing on this thread has become pointless, because the side that wants Israel to take both Gaza and the West Bank and violently remove all the residents there now controls all branches of the federal government. It's gonna happen, and we've run out of ways to stop it after this last election. You may as well demand your pet cat make a statement, it will have as much effect.
- Ooh, a statement. Well that’s all she, or anyone else who supports Palestinians getting to stay alive and in their homes can do now.
  What was she doing while running for president? She couldn't give a proper statement even then, just weasel words that clearly still showed support for israel. Words are all democrats ever have while they continue to kneel to the oligarchy (or be part of the oligarchy themselves).
  the side that wants Israel to take both Gaza and the West Bank and violently remove all the residents there
  Funny that you think this sentiment is contained to only one of the two major parties in the US. Their actions speak otherwise.
  
  Your vote is the only power you have. That means you should use it as effectively as possible. Which means you shouldn't only use it on the ideologically pure, you also use it for people who are more in that direction than the alternative.
  The result of this last election is someone who supports a Palestinian state lost, and someone who supports total Israeli domination won. Your takeaway that something else happened is rare and is not the takeaway of the media, the voters, or the parties. Palestine is now dead in American politics and support for Palestine in any form will now be seen as a liability, that is if any Palestinians are left after this term. Don't shoot the messenger.
  
  Your mistake is in thinking the parties are different in any meaningful way when it comes to israel. Our votes are powerless in the face of lobbying: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlKmWa8p4UM
The point is that the people who were attacking Biden for his Israel policies were just Trump supporters (and literal bots) that were masquerading as passionate Israel supporter. They didn’t give a shit about who would be best for Palestine, they just wanted to get Trump elected.
We know this now by the silence from those people now. End game was achieved when Trump got elected.
- Is there silence? I see plenty of comments routinely downvoted to Hell on this topic. People just downvote the dissenting voices and then pretend they don't exist.
80% of Israelis support ethnic cleansing of Gaza. If they actually attempt it, what makes you think Biden/Kamala would have tried to stop it?
It's fucked up that you think they aren't attempting it right now, or for the past year and a half.
- That would be even more damning for Kamala.

The "uncommitted folks" had nothing at all to do with this. You should've been uncommitted in the primaries if you don't actively support genocide. Who you vote for in the generals is a different matter, but are you seriously saying people who supported more progressive options over biden when there was literally no danger or downside to it are responsible for trump? Bc they committed the sin of empathy and supported palestine? Even if they still voted kamala?

no downside
effectively throwing your vote in the bin for a candidate that has zero chance of winning
make it make sense
- Nothing is being thrown away in the primaries. Literally nothing anyone did there hurt biden. Voting uncommitted meant you got to let biden know you support palestine without hurting his chances in the generals
  
  What? The people who didn't vote for her and/or advocated others do the same on the basis that they'd be equally bad for palestine.
  
  I think you replied to the wrong comment m'dude.
- effectively throwing your vote in the bin for a candidate that has zero chance of winning
  So Biden and Harris? What even is your argument here?
What primary?
- Last winter/spring. The one Kamala didn't win, because Biden was the one running.