'This is ethnic cleansing': Trump faces backlash over Gaza proposal
'You’re talking about probably a million and a half people, and we just clean out that whole thing,' US president said of Palestinian enclave
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Stay on message, Democrats! Remember, it wasn't the Democrats fault for losing, it was those loony leftists for going against the approved narrative of the Democratic Party. The Dems aren't out of touch or negligent, and Bill Mahr is funny and relevant.
God the comments suck on this post
Do you think maybe there can be more than one source of culpability for things in this universe?
Explain
I'm not sure what you need explained here. Pretending it's the Democrats and only the Democrats that caused Harris to lose is silly. Sure, they have culpability. So does every person who loudly and repeatedly said not to vote for "Genocide Joe" and then "Holocaust Harris." So do people like me for not trying hard enough to keep Trump out of office.
There's lots of blame to go around, but everyone is going "not me! Not me!"
That's fine, it's nice you're taking responsibility, it shows initiative. All I'm saying, all I've ever said, was to stop defending the democrats in this, by persecuting people who voted, or didn't vote, according to their conscience. The dems should be sharply criticized for their failures. Maybe there's lots of blame to go around, but there is a higher concentration of blame where there is a higher concentration of power.
Blame actually isn't worth much to me. But the brow beating, infantalizing, condescending attitude toward working Americans while gate keeping every scrap of power, apparently just to end up losing it to the right, is an absolutely inexcusable yet predictable consequence of deep political corruption. Until you personally start organizing against it, then any blame you try to deflect away from the party by taking it on yourself will be a reflection of your ego, not your willingness to put it on the line and fight for change.
And you don't even have to be a commie like me, you can be a pragmatist/reformist and I'll give you shit but at least I'll respect the struggle. Probably doesn't mean much to you but it beats defending corruption.
I never defended Democrats. Nor do I think Democrats are even relevant anymore. My whole point in this thread is a bunch of people are arguing over Democrats and Republicans and not giving a shit about Palestinians, just using them as pawns to argue about American politics.
Okay thanks for clarifying I'm in a couple threads having similar arguments and got my wires crossed.
My comment was really directed at many of the other commenters who are defending dems and pointing the blame.
I'm glad you're working through the problems and it shows a commitment to truth that is lost in most political discourse so thanks for bringing something nicely and distinctly human to the discourse.
If the point you are trying to make is that our spectacular political theatre of divisiveness and trump is actually moving the discourse away from where it should be grounded, that is the fight for the liberation of Palestinians from genocide and decades of oppression, from the actual suffering and struggles, then we agree. Not sure how I would have gotten that from your first comment, but I'm happy to accept that's what you meant, or whatever your actual intent happened to be.
I think the problem is so many people trying to politically point score by whitewashing a bunch of Genociders by using the actions of a new bunch of Genociders.
"Yeah, but our guys' mass murdering of children was all fairies and unicorns shitting rainbows from their arses whilst those other guys' Genocide is all dark and shit" isn't the Grand Principled argument the tribalists seem to think it is.
It's kind of understandable that anybody with enough Principle in their bodies to trump tribalism is a "little" peeved at people excusing any group of willful and eager collaborators in the mass murder of children, be it the previous bunch or the new bunch.
Seems like the problem in this thread is a bunch of people trying to politically point score by not giving a shit that Trump is moving forward with this because they'd rather condemn people who are not in power and may never be in power again.
I see very little condemnation of Trump and a lot of "Genocide Joe would have done the same thing."
And fuck the Palestinians, they're just a tool in this from what I can tell from such people. How many "Genocide Joe" people here not bothering to condemn Trump have ever even talked to a Palestinian?
Re-read the posts: plenty of people who criticize Biden are also criticizing Trump.
I can't speak for others but I personally am not constantly criticizing Trump because their is no lack of criticizing Trump here so it's not a problem I feel I need to address in my comments, much less do it all the time.
It's the whitewashing of the actions of Genociders that I feel is a problem so my comments are directed at that, and in this thread so far I've only seen the actions of one bunch of Genociders be whitewashed, and that's the Biden bunch.
If this was 4chan I'm sure there would be plenty of comments whitewashing Trump's actions that I would feel the need to counter.
You need to re-read my posts because you are still doing what I am saying, not giving a shit about what is going to happen to Palestinians because you're too busy continuing to argue about an election that was decided months ago.
What have you actually done to try to stop this genocide?
Mainly spreading awareness of what's going and exposing the flawed logic and lies in pro-Israeli propaganda since the very start and pointing out the hypocrisy of those who empower the Genociders by supporting politicians who knowingly and actively give them military support. (To the point that I've actually received e-mails in my native language from a Tel Aviv based organisation inviting me to a "learn about Israel" web course, which is funny 'cause I've never published my e-mail address here)
I'm also a member of a small party in the country I live in which is very loudly against the Israeli Occupation and the Israeli Genocide.
I keep on hammering against the whitewashing of the Democrat Genociders because their actions help normalized the support of Genocide and extreme racism in the US - they're supposed to be an alternative to the likes of Trump, the opposite not the "almost the same but a tiny bit less bad".
Democrats are supposed to walk towards Less Evil, thus opening up a political gap in the middle that also pulls the Republicans over towards Less Evil, but instead Democrats are walking towards More Evil, effectively making the baseline of American politics be Quite A Lot Of Evil and worsening, and supporting the normalization and even increasing extremism of the Evil in the Republican Party.
This isn't about the Present, because that war is lost and all that people have left is Resistance (and me not being in US means I can't be part of that), this is about the Future - if the Democrat leadership comes around to accept that their only chance is to actually be the opposite of Trump in actions, fighting for actual Principles, rather than merely be the slightly dissenting performative voice, then there is hope for improvement otherwise (as indicated by Trumps reelection after what he did last time in office) America is condemned to a cycle of presidents like Trump and worse.
People whitewashing Genocide-support as long as it's done by Democrats ain't gona push the Democrat leadership to start moving towards Less Evil.
"Spreading awareness." So getting on the internet and talking shit. Big fucking deal.
Have you spent even five minutes sending a form email and making a phone call? No, apparently not. You can very easily contact politicians in other countries, but you'd rather just sit on your ass and berate people.
And you are the one whitewashing genocide here. You have not spent two seconds discussing what is going to happen to Palestinians and you clearly don't care since they're just pawns in your game.
Re-read my post.
I'm actually in a political party that actually fights against that shit, busy campaigning in elections, participating in party conferences and even manning election booths, not busy whitewashing the Genocide support of my favored pro-Genocide political party whilst sending letters to a leadership that couldn't give a rat's arse about what I think because I'm supporting them where it counts no matter how evil they act, so they have no reason to change tack away from Evil-doing.
By providing comfort and support to politicians that militarilly support an ongoing Genocide, you're indirectly supporting Genocide, at the very least because those politicians won't change if they're supported not mater what, so you're making sure they remain supporting Genocide whenever they have a chance.
Absolutelly, compliment the leadership of your party on the things they do right (not merelly what they say) AND chastise them on the things they do wrong like supporting the mass murder of children because they're from a "human animal" ethnicity.
I'm starting to think the difference between us is that I'm driven by Principle - I don't live in America, I don't live in Palestine, I'm safelly in Europe on the opposite side of the continent from Russia, I could just ignore the butchering in Palestine or the butchering in Ukraine because, hey, "I'm Alright Jack", but I won't because that shit is wrong, and I don't mean just a bit wrong, I mean "getting way too close to Nazi-level wrong" - whilst you are driven by the fear of what can happen to your daughter in Trump's America, which is understandable but is not Principle, it's all about you and yours - a selfish reason, not just taking an stand on principle without gaining anything from it.
Maybe that's why I can't stand Mass Murderers, Genociders, Xenophobes and those who enable them, whilst you run around excusing them and thus doing your bit to enable them to carry on doing what they do - as long as they give you what you want for you and yours, You're Alright and fuck the rest!
"I support a political party" means you don't have to do any work. I spend hours on this, you don't do shit.
And if you're driven by principle, where's your principle of doing something rather than just berating people and voting? Because it's clear you're not motivated enough to take action on this despite your claim of hating genocide.
Also, who am I comforting and supporting? Name them. Unless that's a lie. Is it a lie?
Edit: That's what I thought, no answers, just downvotes.
Right, you believe whatever fantasy you want about me whilst ignoring what I actually wrote.
You're all over the threads here berating people who dare criticize the Democrat Party Leadership for supporting the Genocide. That's supporting said Democrat Party Leadership on that specific subject - whilst you don't say you're in favor of the Genocide, you're definitelly implying that their support for the Genocide "isn't all that bad", hence indirectly you're supporting the Genocide.
If you can't see how defending their actions (even if only by framing them as "Trump is worse", as if Evil-doing is alright as long as somebody else is even more Evil) is giving them the comfort of knowing they can stay their course and remain in power within the Democrat Party (and, once every 4 or 8 years, get their hands on the power of the State), then I suggest you relocate some of those hours to reading books on Psychology, maybe get a part-time office job in a big company (try Finance, it's full of Sociopaths so pretty close to the upper echelons of a major political party) and get familiar with how that kind of people think because you're definitelly just another useful idiot from their point of view.
You're playing Defense for the kind of people who, if you had any Principles, you would be trying to get replaced, so de facto you're supporting them.
Saying nothing either way would've been a more neutral position with regards to the Genocide than playing defense for people supporting a Genocide with weapons and ammo.
(Seemingly) unlike you, even in the party I am a member of I am critical of the leadership when they do wrong things, because I'm there not for the love of the party, I'm there because my principles align with the ones of the party, for the purpose of fighting for those principles, and that does include criticizing the party leadership when they stray away from those principles. I did the same thing back when I lived in Britain and was a member of the Green Party over there.
I don't have tribe loyalty nor am I (nowadays) deferential to the "leaders" (having actually met them, in my mind they're human rather than celebrities, and speaking with the local member of parliament when we were campaigning was quite the eye openner), so my points are entirelly guided by Principle.
From your posts it looks a lot like tribalism guides your points more than Principle.
Well, the truth can sting a little if you've just found out you've been fooled. The important thing is to grow up and learn from your mistake.
Someone was telling you this shit was going to happen and there was only one way to even have a chance of preventing it. You decided compromise was for losers and are now reaping the rewards of your ill informed, short sighted decision. Why are you whining so much, you got exactly what you were told you would get.
there was only one way to even have a chance of preventing it
State level electoral reform so people can vote outside the two party system without a spoiler effect
So did you! You got exactly what we told you was going to happen, yet its our fault it happened. Look at this post! This whining is on your side my dude. I just can't believe you fools didn't stop with the brow beating after such a catastrophic loss. Couldn't do one fraction of a second of self reflection. I was not telling people not to vote for the democrat, but I didn't hide my real feelings either.
A movement to withhold votes against Democrats has been building for years. the uncommitted movement is ideologically closer to liberal democrats than so called tankies, but Dems threw them under the bus, called them Putin influenced for protesting against a genocide in the only way they knew how. I was fighting for Palestinian liberation in different ways, I don't really get too involved in electoral politics though I'm active politically. Never was I whining. God what projection.
It really demonstrates the two tendencies of liberalism: good conscientious people who are cool and hate injustice, vs. bloodless defenders of private capital who make noises like they care about justice so they can take power and broker influence.
Get a grip, do some actual criticism of your movement, do better for christs sakes. There wouldn't be nearly as many communists and anarchists becoming radicalized if democrats were even a little effective. They are the only force that has the power to oppose the fascists and criminals in charge of the republicans. and they blew it, time and time again. Stop blaming the people, the fucking lemmy posters for Christ sakes, and start looking at your party,and namely where they get their funding.
this may require you to read and process information instead of just repeating what some 68 year old millionaire said. Which may take some growth on your part, so maybe hydrate and stretch a little first.
So… you’re actually saying that your protest successfully got trump elected- in defense of someone accusing you of helping to get trump elected….
No I'm saying that material reality affects peoples views more than your version where people are dumb babies; and acknowledging that, let alone standing next to us in struggle could have carried Democrats to victory, instead they abandoned even the semblance of ethics and morals other than "Cheeto bad." Some people, and you may struggle with this because of an apparent lack of empathy or theory of mind, although maybe not, are not able to cash in their ethics and morals for a pat on the back and literally nothing else, from the same people who are resolved to continue the genocide. Maybe you can, but others have more character and compunction.
Hopefully someday you have experiences that stimulate growth as a person.
And like I'm not particularly partial to taking this view of you as some kind of vampire bereft of all reason and conscience. But when you do it to others, don't get grumpy when someone calls you out on it. If you don't like the way it feels, and if you think its possible that you might take a contrary position to me because of our roles on either side of this discourse, then think about how when you do it, it affects others.
Fuck me for thinking you should be better than that!
So… I’m having difficulty understanding because of your obvious intellectual superiority, but…
I’m going to need a simple answer here:
Did your protest work, or not?
Because if it did, then it would seem to me- in my humble ignorance, that you enabled a trump victory.
But if it didn’t, then it would seem to be, also in my humble ignorance, that you enabled a trump victory.
Be sure to use small words so that my brain can understand.
My question is answered by your question: did you and the democrats stand with the Palestinians or did you stand with Israel?
The organization you are defending with your bad faith questioning is one where it is impossible to stand with ones own principles against genocide. Democrats could not convincingly demonstrate that they would stand by Palestinians and end this genocide, even after the UN and an avalanche of international bodies, legally and scientifically proved that it was indeed a genocide that was occurring. Even then, there was just an uncomfortable shifting of feet as democrats who had been receiving campaign contributions on the order of millions of dollars over decades, were forced to either stand against that money or genocide.
They chose money, and the people who stood against the fascist oppression of the Palestinians, chose to stay home.
Because you know what didn't work? Standing with Israel when the time came to support Palestine, and then expecting people to be guilt tripped into turning out to vote for Democrats. To be clear, i never once advocated for staying home on election day, but at least I was able to surmise it by looking at the situation.
You act like I'm putting on an air of intellectual superiority, but my standards for consciousness of the situation are actually quite low. I would ask that someone would learn about and think about the situation leading up to a particular event, which you seem to want to ignore; and I ask that you have a measure of empathy. Your inability to demonstrate either should not be read as my judgement of you, but your own guilty judgement of your own fucked up reasoning that you want to put on to me. Save it for your therapist.
As expected, walls of text without answering a simple yes or no question.
Did you answer any of my questions? No, as expected. What incredible hypocrisy
I’ve argued with hundreds of versions of you. I know this game. I’m not answering shit to until you answer what was asked of you first.
Did non-voting in protest/third party protest votes affect the election, yes- or no?
Okay let's lay it out.
Did protesting genocide win the election? No
Did defending Israel and attacking peaceful protestors win the election? Also no.
Did protestors fighting for peace stand with Israel in carrying out a genocide? No.
Were those protestors wrong when they said democrats would lose if they didn't stop the genocide? No.
Were those protestors the establishment of the Democrats? No
Did establishment democrats stand with Palestinians against genocide? No.
Did they stand with the side committing genocide? YES
Did they lose? Yes.
Idk what kind of own you think this is. Its not like the dems lost by opposing genocide, actually they lost enabling it. If only someone had warned them
No, what they are saying is the Dem's consistent refusal to listen to their voters, and instead thinking that voters "owe" their votes to the dems, is what got Trump elected.
How on earth does refusing to listen to voters equal losing an election without also admitting that you are responsible for the outcome of an election if this was your reason to protest vote/stay home?
You either had an effect on the election that caused trump to win via your act of protest, or you didn’t/ and therefore don’t get to say “we told you this would happen.”
If you didn’t vote in protest; or voted third party to send a message to the democrats, then you get to take the blame for trump. That is how a logical conclusion is made.
If you chose not to eat chicken because you don’t like it, and your only other option is to eat pasta, and you don’t like that either-
It is YOUR fault you are hungry, not all the other people eating their dinners.
Seriously…. Even children should be able make this distinction. But I guess that’s what happens when arrogance meets shame-
You get stubborn ignorance.
How on earth does refusing to listen to voters equal losing an election without also admitting that you are responsible for the outcome of an election if this was your reason to protest vote/stay home?
Because I don't blame individual voters, for the decisions of the candidate running?
You either had an effect on the election that caused trump to win via your act of protest, or you didn’t/ and therefore don’t get to say “we told you this would happen.”
So, no fault goes to the candidates? At all?
It is YOUR fault you are hungry, not all the other people eating their dinners.
Isn't it the fault of the person who only provided the food, and only giving the choice between shit sandwich and diarrhea soup?
If voters protest voting had an effect, doesn't that mean the blame lies with the candidate who wholly ignored the voters? Because they ignored the voters during the election, its fair to say they would be ignored after the election.
Seriously…. Even children should be able make this distinction. But I guess that’s what happens when arrogance meets shame-
Yes, even a child should be able to make the distinction of genocide being evil, regardless of the purported justification.
And, here's a spoiler: I voted for Harris! Yes, it was a very selfish decision on my part, because I have direct interactions daily with, well, most of all the groups that were being impacted under Biden, and now under Trump. At best, I was hoping for 4 more years of radicalizing people.
But guess what? I still am working to radicalize people.
No one said the candidate or the party takes no blame. That’s foolish to even think to assume.
But 90 million people didn’t vote. It’s safe to say that several million of those were single issue protesters. And then the over 3 million third party voters?
Yeah…
It’s your fault you’re hungry.
I'm not defending the party, the movement, the history, the people or their choices. I'm pointing out that no one wanted to hold their nose to vote and now we're all swimming in shit.
Downvote me all you want. No amount of political theory will make the math go away. Every single person who decided to not vote, or to vote for catharsis, was a helping hand pushing Trump's ass into the oval office.
Yes, the Democrats pissed you off, yes you should have still voted for them.
Its a hell of a situation we are in, but abstracting this one political act away from the movement, the people, their choices, the history behind it all, is the only reason you are able to look at the situation in such a limited way.
I believe you, that you want to get your intentions or beliefs untangled from whatever schemes political and economic elites are cooking. It is a great tragedy that people didn't vote to keep Trump out. But if you want your individual beliefs to stand on their own and hold water on their own, then you have to extend the same courtesy to conscientious uncommitted voters.
For months people told me I was a bot for daring to suggest Biden was too old to run. Then that view was vindicated too late, and when progressives wanted to get in line behind Kamala, it was made pretty clear that other than uncomfortable noises and "concerns" about the genocide, money and weapons were still going to flow. Do you understand that this lesser evil messaging was doomed to fail? millions of voices on the left who are in no way hoping for another trump term were warning exactly this, and were silenced, not to mention beaten, arrested, kicked out of school or worse for daring to put their bodies on the line for Palestinians?
Maybe ask yourself why the most progressive stripe of voters withheld their vote, while millions of others just didn't think, maybe wrongly, that it would affect them either way. Was there a conspiracy by Russia and other countries? I mean its been established, I think, that a great deal of this goes on. So let me ask you: in this situation, where democracy is being attacked from without and within, night and day by well funded and well organized forces, do you think that a mere vote every 4 years or so is enough to actually prevent the degeneration of a democracy? Or might it take quite a bit more effort? Second question: have the democrats proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are worth that vote, so that the critical mass of rational and conscientious people in this country would not have grounds to doubt their commitment to restoring democracy and overcoming fascism?
My answer to both questions is no. This does not make me naive or idiotic, but I'm afraid that is how I am made to feel, made to seem, by the mainstream of the Democratic party. And so were hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of other Americans whose conscience would not allow a vote for genocide.
The oppression of the Palestinian people didn't begin on oct7, let's not pretend that Democrats werent culpable before and after. Therefore there is good reason to doubt the dems would have influenced any meaningful change in the conflict
The only political act that was being asked of the millions who didn't vote was to vote. That's the only political act that matters in this contact. It's the lowest possible bar in a democracy. Show up, check a box. I get that it sucks, but this, what we have now, is going to be so much worse.
Just to sum up my point: The system is rigged hard against any kind of progressivism. The left might be able to influence a Democrat, it absolutely will not influence a Republican, and a third party has absolutely zero chance of getting elected.
If third parties want clout, they have to build it from the ground up, and that means money in a capitalist system. Where's all the third party money that's going to help defeat the established parties? It doesn't exist.
Again, I'm not celebrating his reality, I'm only pointing out that it's always been that way and opting out of having a voice isn't going to do shit to change it.
Not voting is hurting the people we care about, all for the sake of feeling better about yourself.
A system that restrict democracy to checking a box every 4 years while silencing peaceful opposition calling for peace, is not a democracy it is tyranny. You won't be able to sell tyranny to me as democracy. And every cycle that the deep political corruption at the heart of the Democrats exposes itself for what it is, more and more people see it for what it is.
They didn't create these contradictions, neither did you and neither did I. But many people are responsible and benefit directly from the carnage. And your plan to oppose them is to stay dumb and stand in line every 4 years.
I said it elsewhere, but it just shows the divide in the Democrats between the progressives and the establishment. The fact that you've resigned to a single unconscionable viewpoint doesn't mean that other people are stupid for going the opposite way. The Palestinian people have been the victims of liberal pragmatism for 75 years. I know you want to collapse all morality and ethics into a single moment when a ballot is cast, but seriously don't you think that view is somewhat convenient for the establishment? Is this the society you want to take part in and participate in?
No its not, you dread to do it but once every 2-4 years as a matter of duty. But people who don't subscribe to your sense of moral duty, no different than the enemy right? Cant you see how self defeating it all is?
Refusing to participate grants you zero benefit, and makes it easier for the system to continue.
This has nothing to do with political viewpoints, this is math. There's no way in hell you're going to tear it down from the outside so what's the plan? Sit there and feel smug that you did nothing while everyone suffers?
Checking the box is the bare minimum, and you couldn't even do that, because it made you feel icky.
Your protest vote, or non vote (same thing), holds negative value for the people of Palestine.
As I said elsewhere, I did vote I have voted and I will continue to vote. So nice strawman. I never discouraged people from voting, but I understand why people didnt. I'm against the browbeating of people for voting their conscience.
Some people don't know what it means to stand up for what they believe in, since their beliefs appear to be whatever will opportunistically win. Then they condescendingly chide others for risking their own bodies, for having strong beliefs. Those people will betray in the first opportunity, because they only perceive others as a means to get what they themselves want. So frankly, you can shove your pragmatism. Your pragmatism didn't defeat Trump either, but at least I don't stand with child murderers and rapists and worse.
I reject your shallow, faulty reasoning.
Please leave me alone.
Someone was telling you this shit was going to happen and there was only one way to even have a chance of preventing it
Preventing what? A genocide?
Harris was all on board with it.
Well never know, she's not the president.
Trump, the guy you enabled, however, Is. And he's a fucking nightmare.
He wants to displace every Palestinian by force and hand their land to Israel.
Is that what you non-voted for? Take a plane to the Gaza Strip and preach that on a corner, see how well that works out for you.
I voted for Harris, even though I didn't want to.
End result, for Palestinians are the same, regardless, though. She supported a genocide of them.
Sure buddy, of course you did.
Well you sure showed those democrats by not voting huh? Like shooting yourself but calling it a win because you got blood on the other guy.
The American left has become so toxic, and splintered into micro groups with special labels who all hate each other and reject each other's support while blaming each other and calling anyone even slightly right or even left of you an enemy. Meanwhile the right was united while trump and Netanyahu played you all so blatantly and obviously and you all bought it.
Well I’m sure Gazans thank you American leftists for staying home and letting trump win. I’m sure your blaming democrats will make them feel better
Sadly you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you're voting you're supporting the status quo of the Dems really only listening to corporate backers, if you're not voting you're letting the opposition (Trump) have a better chance at office (which he did get). They're both terrible options, and I'm not sure blaming individuals who are tired of having to fight for the lesser evil instead of a better tomorrow is fair
Are you suggesting that material conditions can be contradictory, moving people to make different, equally rational, decisions for conflicting reasons, rather than just being two camps that define all moral obligations as the opposite of the other?
Someone should look into this
I did vote, but I was also trying to tell people that the whole strategy of browbeating wasn't going to work. But that's all the dems have to offer which is why they lost.
