There are few things fascists hate as much as antifascist coalitions

voting 3rd party
not voting also sends a strong message
Pretty much just had this conversation. Except my point was if you want further left, then you have to give Dems consistent victories. Because when they lose they go to the center to find votes. Remember Dems have had all 3 (house, Senate, presidency) for only 4 years of the last 24 years.
- Well said sir
  Left wing people walked away from the Democrats after 1968, and they had every righteous reason to. Did the Democrats suddenly start embracing actual leftism as a winning strategy as a result? Did a viable third party emerge? Did non electoral activism (much more powerful at the time, like a massive nationwide movement) finally take hold and upend the system to bring about real, sustained change?
  Not exactly. We went, in that time, from "great society" and 1-income families who owned their home and sent kids to college, and the civil rights act and all that stuff, to Reagan -> Clinton -> Bush and the fuckin apocalypse that's brought us the current corporate hellscape. The reality of working life in today's America would be unrecognizable to most (white) people in the 1960s. The Democrats, after 24 years of losing elections (ironically enough, losing them by fielding leftist candidates like McGovern, McCarthy, and Carter), finally tacked hard to the right and started being contenders again, but we lost a lot of ground and we're only just now even starting to undo the damage. The party of JFK and Carter became the party of Clinton and Obama.
  I actually think modern left wing people are aware of how terrifying Trump is, and would vote for Biden even if he wasn't a significant step up from the low bar that is the modern Democrats. But yes, the drumbeat of MAGA imposters and the occasional confused leftist saying that if we just stop voting then everything will find a way to work itself out is certainly a thing that exists.
  
  (ironically enough, losing them by fielding leftist candidates like McGovern, McCarthy, and Carter),
  And when Gore and Hillary Clinton stuck their head a little bit left on climate change, they lost. And people wonder why Dems go to the center to find voters.
- The greatest expansion of Rights in American history came in a period where Democrats had a very strong string of victories. From FDR to LBJ Democrats dominated in this country, it was also the period in which basically everything we consider the Cornerstone of our nation was developed. It's also the period that the conservatives are trying to roll back as hard as humanly possible.
  
  Conservatives including some Democrats.
  
  that's at a time when democrats were republicans and republicans were democrats; things change and so do political parties and whitewashing like this suggests either shallow understanding or willful misrepresentation.
- And during those four years they only had a super majority that could overcome the GOPs automatic use of the filibuster for a very short period of time when Independents caucused with the Dems, and even then there were some holdouts that watered down the best parts of what they were able to get through.
- It didn't work in 1968. It didn't work in 1980. It didn't work in 1984. It didn't work in 1988. It didn't work in 2000. It didn't work in 2016. It didn't work in 2020....
  
  Yeah because they're an idiot. If you actually want to get leftists in power, the answer is to start sharpening your knives. Replace Dems with leftists in your local elections. Organize for ranked choice voting and electoral reform. Work alongside your local labor unions to generate support for pro-labor, non-establishment politicians for Senators and House Representatives.
  We can keep the Democrats in power until the time comes, but there's no hope for the party. It's far more likely for the Dems to cannibalize the Republican party after the MAGA movement explodes than for them to ever reform into a serious leftist party. If we want one, we'll have to make it ourselves.
- That's some abused spouse logic. Keep rewarding the people abusing your trust? Maybe they'll recognize you this time? Maybe the reason they always go to the right is because they don't think the left will stop voting for them. Maybe they just don't care. Either way it makes no sense to reward that behavior.
  
  Maybe the reason they always go to the right is because they don’t think the left will stop voting for them.
  Maybe it's because Dems have had all 3 (house, senate, presidency) for a measly 4 years of the last 24 years. If you want to go back further then it's 6 years out of the last 44 years. That's right, Dems have had control for a measly 6 years out of the last 44 fucking years.
  When they don’t have control of all 3 (house, senate, presidency), they need to negotiate with the GOP to pass anything. And you wonder why they have to meet in the middle when they don't have power? The GOP even shut down the government under Obama.
  And when they lose elections (do the math, they've lost control for 20 years out of the last 24 years. Or 38 years out of the last 44 years.) when they lose elections, they go to the center to find votes. Because that's where the voters are. Every time they try to move a little left (Gore, Hilary Clinton) they lose. So what does the next guy do? He goes to the center because that's where the votes go.
  You desperately need to learn what's going on.
  So what do you do if you want things to go left? Give Dems consistent and overwhelming victories. Let them know that they can go left without losing like Gore and Hilary Clinton did.
  
  It's more like choosing your enemy then a business transaction.
- Remember Dems have only had all 3 (house, Senate, presidency) for 4 years of the last 24 years.
  And when you take it to a filibuster-proof majority they have had even less control than that.
  
  Filibuster proof majority for 4 months out of the last 44 years. Not 4 years, 4 months.
- Yep. If we want far left, we need to do what the far right did. Vote consistently and persistently for wing candidates and then vote for the extreme when they chance a run.
  Anyone pretending this is bad is a short sighted fool at best. We will never magically get left wing extremists. They need a foundation of left wing to build off and that means compromise and frankly if you're against this compromise you're not a leftist, you're an idealist idiot that will be played.
  
  Except that is the opposite of how the Right works. Contrary to what Liberals tell themselves, Republican voters need to be wooed, Democrat voters fall in line. If a national Republican candidate isn't anti-abortion, the evangelicals might not show up, if they aren't anti-tax and anti-welfare, they loose "business Republicans", and they need to scaremonger about things such as immigration to rile up other parts of their base. That is why you don't have every Republican presidential candidate saying things like "Look, we have to appeal to moderate Democrats. That is why we have to expand welfare, access to abortion, and make it easier for immigrants to come in. If you believe in conservative values, he is still the lesser evil than the Democrat, despite being pro-welfare and immigration, and you only have two choices"
  You are reversing the causality as why Republicans don't have the same level of "Vote Red no mater who" and voter shaming and have to keep moving right to keep their base engaged.

"Pro-democracy conservatives" in an antifascist coalition, y'all crack me up sometimes.
- Some Republican Secretaries of State, Mike Pence, military leaders, conservatives in the Justice Department, and similar not-real-inspiring-politically people were some of the most important ones who put the brakes on Trump's previous attempt at a for-real fascist takeover. Without them, I think there is an excellent chance that it would have worked, and we'd be currently living in a society which doesn't have functioning elections or protections for political speech in media or on the internet.
  I do understand that our elections and our media right now are not fully free. But that doesn't mean every point on that spectrum is the same. People on the left sometimes like to say Reagan or Bush or Trump 1 or Obama or Biden are so oppressive that it all might as well be fascism, but people who lived through real totalitarian rule further down on the spectrum would tell you that no, no it is certainly not.
  
  Any of those Never-Trump Republicans going to vote for Biden? They seem to be very silent.
- Check out The Bulwark. It's basically a bunch of people who still consider themselves conservatives but exclusively vote Democrat because Republicans are insane and/or fascists.
  
  And mad props to them for going against the cult. They're still moist likely regressive assholes, but they're principled regressive assholes and I can respect that.
- Eh. This describes my Dad, I guess. Life time "fiscal conservative" that voted Republican his entire life except 2016 and on. Possibly 2008 too, he was outraged at Palin and the Tea Party.
  They exist.
  But he was never a republican for the social conservatism side of things. Never watched Fox News or Rush Limbaugh or any of that garbage. And votes blue down ticket too because he accepts that the entire party is corrupted now.
  
  This is exactly why I can respect older, actual, conservatives and not the hate/fear driven fox viewers like my own father...
  The older conservatives generally came to their conclusions in some ways "on their own" while current magas are just being emotionally manipulated and propagandized like crazy...
  Obligatory: I FUCKING HATE PROPAGANDISTS!

I've never voted in an election where I wasn't voting for policies I disagree with.
These kids need better civics education so they know we don't get nice things in America.
- Genocide as a policy you can respectfully disagree with
  
  The only illusion is that genocide was ever not an American policy. Talk to a Native American about it.
  
  But you don't have to!

The MAGA had slowly coming into view *chefs kiss *

I'm looking at my calendar and wondering, it's not November right? It's still June, or isn't it? As an outsider, why are American leftists basically being called fascist enablers when they are only protesting and demanding reasonable, better policies? And yes, they leverage their only political power they have in the USA, their vote, in June months before the election, to get better policies. Wow what an undemocratic move of them.
Now they are demonized for it, at the same time I've seen nothing here last week when Biden enacted a right wing immigration law with an executive order. So it's okay to try to sway republicans, even though the GOP has racist views on lock as their USP.
It's like they are Schrödingers leftists: powerful enough to prevent Biden from being reelected and it's totally their fault if Trump wins, not the democratic party, but not powerful enough to receive any compromises because they are such a small voter base and so radical with their demands of stopping a genocide and protecting illegal immigrants.
- I'm far left. Anti capitalist. Anti authoritarian. But, there are groups on the left or masking of leftists very heavily pushing people not to vote for joe biden in the upcoming elections. They, whether real leftists or not, are not just protesting. I don't love joe biden. I didn't even vote for him the first time. I knew he would win my state and voted 3rd party. But mass rhetoric to protest vote for no one or someone else risks leaving us with donald trump.
  
  It's called pressure to force him to make change. He's got plenty of time to not support a genocide before November.
- ? And yes, they leverage their only political power they have in the USA, their vote, in June months before the election, to get better policies. Wow what an undemocratic move of them.
  Yes, congratulations, you have suddenly become aware that building support for an election starts slightly sooner than a week before election day.
  It’s like they are Schrödingers leftists: powerful enough to prevent Biden from being reelected and it’s totally their fault if Trump wins, not the democratic party, but not powerful enough to receive any compromises because they are such a small voter base and so radical with their demands of stopping a genocide and protecting illegal immigrants.
  Have you not noticed that elections in the US are typically won at or under single digit percentage points? If you're 3% of a coalition that wins by 1%, you're big enough to sink the entire coalition if you throw a hissy fit over being asked to join up against a literal fascist, but not big enough to warrant losing the support of, say, 40% of the coalition.
  So yeah, both "The far-left is a small part of the coalition" and "If they don't vote for the coalition, there's a good chance we lose and fascism wins" are not mutually fucking exclusive.
  
  Yes, congratulations, you have suddenly become aware that building support for an election starts slightly sooner than a week before election day.
  Thanks, Pug. I wasn't aware.
  But to be serious, these posts like yours started at the primaries, even longer before the election than now, with the same messaging: Leftists that don't want an even bigger shift to the right in democratic policies should not complain, or else they are at fault for Trump term number two. That's crazy. Maybe, just maybe, the DNC can do something themselves to prevent Trump. Instead of blackmailing supporters, they could do something these supporters like.
  If you’re 3% of a coalition that wins by 1%, you’re big enough to sink the entire coalition if you throw a hissy fit over being asked to join up against a literal fascist, but not big enough to warrant losing the support of, say, 40% of the coalition.
  If someone is only 3% or even lower of your base, but you depend on them or else you don't get the majority, these 3% don't just get a 3% say in the coalition. The majority has to make bigger concessions than they want. That's how 2+ party coalitions work in other parliaments. Smaller parties aren't just there to be dragged by a chain to vote for everything the bigger party/parties want them to, just for little treats here or there.
  Also, I don't think only 3% want a ceasefire or don't want republican immigration policies enacted by their own candidate, it's considerably more people.

what the fuck are you on
- He does nothing but post negative about leftists. This is just who he is. A sheepdog alienating everyone to the left of him and herding others to the right.
  
  I've tried to get them to understand that maybe their strategy just isn't viable if their goal is to get more people to vote for Biden, as they instead serve as a giant wedge, but they basically said they didn't care and leftist votes don't matter.
  They have actively contributed to Lemmy.world's Red Scare, where even Anarchists are called Tankies.
  
  classic liberal doing the GOPs work for them
  
  I get what you mean, but there is a real problem among the left. In Germany we had these massive protests against Nazis and for democracy. It was beautiful, finally all kinds of people united against anti-democratic sentiments. We had green voters, conservative voters, labor voters etc. all walking for the same cause. Except for the ultra left. They had to boycott the protests because there were so many CDU (conservative) voters among the people. Way to fuck up something beautiful for something so petty.
  This kind of behavior is exploited by the right. It's way easier to unite people via hatred than it is to unite the left.
  
  Most of you aren’t leftists.
- A desire to see fascism defeated and have my life end somewhere other than a concentration camp, even if it means a milquetoast neoliberal wins?
  
  I'm voting for Biden, but I'm under no illusion that neo liberals can fix fascism. Seeing Macron faulter to a more powerful Le Pen should serve as a warning to progressives.
  
  Do you seriously think that everything's peachy after Trump loses? That all the fascists just stop pursuing political power like after the emperor was killed in Return of the Jedi?
- Biden's meme-team hard at work I see

Given the attitudes on this platform I'm bracing for the downvotes, but I genuinely wish you and others like you would stop trying to (nearly daily) insult/shame others into voting the way you want. You should watch this video by Bernie Sanders about winning votes for Biden on merit and logic. Note that he never uses insults, and the reasoned arguments Sanders has been making for months convinced me to stop telling people to vote 3rd party months ago. I'm now willing to ask people to vote Biden in spite of my reservations - not because Biden is great but because Trump absolutely cannot be allowed to win.
You and others with the same views could try that approach as opposed to reflexively calling everyone who brings up concerns or expresses reservations fascists, complete idiots, bots, and so on. I have no clue why so many people on Lemmy believe that incessantly attacking everyone who disagrees with them with the most extreme accusations they can muster makes their position welcoming or attractive. I won't speak for others but I was won over by calm reason, not being called slurs every time I opened Lemmy.
- not because Biden is great but because Trump absolutely cannot be allowed to win.
  Oh, here I thought my argument was something else.
  It's funny, though, because when you emphasize that Trump can't be allowed to win, the chorus of the MLs and their defenders is "HE CAN'T JUST BE NOT TRUMP, THE LESSER EVIL IS STILL EVIL".
  You and others with the same views could try that approach as opposed to reflexively calling everyone who brings up concerns or expresses reservations fascists, complete idiots, bots, and so on. I have no clue why so many people on Lemmy believe that frequently insulting everyone who disagrees with them with the most extreme accusations they can muster makes their position welcoming or attractive.
  I'm not trying to attract MLs. MLs and their useful idiots are lost causes. This isn't about convincing people who are already set in their ways - it's about warding off the braindead points of propagandists so everyone can see what they are before making the mistake of buying in.
  
  "I'm allowed to call people idiots, fascists, etc. basically daily because I can justify it." Everyone willing to dehumanize and denigrate others has what they believe to be validating reasons. I can't stop you from trying to win people over by insulting everyone who disagrees, but I wanted to be a voice asking for kinder, calmer discourse a la the Bernie video I posted.
- not because Biden is great but because Trump absolutely cannot be allowed to win.
  I hear all the time "Biden can't run on being not Trump".
  And Biden is great. He's done a crap load.
  
  Biden has done some good things. I disagree that he's great. If you want specifics, the first 90 seconds of that Sanders video is him detailing several grievances I agree with in a clear, concise and fairly complete list. However, to quote Sanders: "But while we may have our disagreements with Biden, it's important to take a minute to think about what a Trump presidency would mean to our country, and in fact the world."
  I know what needs to be done which is why I stopped encouraging/supporting 3rd party or undecided voting months ago. I could go on a lot longer, but that's the bottom line. I'll join the effort to stop Trump - just don't ask me to agree that my concerns are invalid or have been adequately addressed.

No. People upset with genocide are not Trump supporters. This is bullshit meant to deflect and defend a fucking genocide. No matter what hat they wear.
- I literally tittered like a schoolgirl observing how many yelling-guys from the meme are in this thread with their short top level comments. Taken in aggregate it is funny to me like “oh shit this meme hit a nerve it looks like”
  Nobody said don’t be upset with the genocide. They said let’s elect the guy who’s doing a poor job trying to stop one genocide, and not let the guy win who wants 10 genocides.
  
  Lmao no. You can try to walk it back but we've all been here. We're not dumb and we weren't born yesterday. Nobody is refusing to vote for Biden because he supports a country. It's because he supports and covers for them committing a genocide.
  Conflating protestors with trump voters is just the cherry on top. This is what genocide denial looks like.
- Which one? Sudan? Nigeria? China?
  
  the one that the 51st american state is committing.
- Yeah… most of you are. Because runners that aren’t- aren’t screaming at the top of their lungs to not vote.
  Only an absolute idiot would think that not voting will bring change. And I’d like to imagine that TRUE leftists aren’t idiots.
- This is bullshit meant to deflect and defend a fucking genocide.
  You want to clarify where Israel's ongoing genocide is defended or deflected from?

Another PugJesus post bashing leftists.
- Its all he does.
- Apparently, bashies aren't for fashies. Bashies are for us. 😭
- The only problem with the meme is he's calling tankies leftists.
  Tankies aren't leftists.
  Edit: cry more, tankies
  
  Actually I don't think that is the problem with the post because it perfectly illustrates that many who bash tankies do so as a proxy to bash leftists. This is just a mask off moment.
  
  There's more then one problem: the Democrats that support a cease fire are not in frame because they're not sitting at home watching Biden.

- Protesting against genocide means we should be starved to death? What's next? Vote correctly or get the rack?
- While they exist, real ones are actually fairly rare.
  Most of what you see on the Internet, are Russian/conservative operatives trying to convince people not to vote antifascist in November.

Not in picture: the majority of Democrats that support a cease fire.
- Biden supports a ceasefire. The only people resisting a ceasefire are Netanyahu and the Republican party.
  
  He supports a ceasefire only if his Israeli overlords accept it. He won't attempt to use any leverage such as our munitions supply to Israel to attempt to force it though.
  Still far better than the orange man who would outright assist Israel with exterminating Palestine.
  
  Biden has been improving his position, but he needs encouragement. That is why I say there are Democrats not in picture: a bunch of us are still protesting and writing. The letter responses have improved from "we need to take out Hamas" to "we we're working with coalitions to get aide in".

You better watch out PugJesus, I just got accused of being a bot in another thread for having this point of view 😂
- I'm used to tankie whinging about how they can't support fascist regimes without being called out.
  
  I hit em with the “maybe your views are just unpopular?” and have yet to see a response…

If the 'anti-trump coalition' consists of people voting entirely to avoid a trump presidency, why does the coalition building only consist of capitulation to the views of the anti-trump republicans
- Because a split on the left, in this case, guarantees a right win. You should, however fight for what you think is right on all days of the year, not just on election season.
  
  If "we have to vote trump out of office" is the platform and everything else is immaterial, why not run a more progressive campaign instead of trying to win the vote of people who won't vote Dem again
  
  This. What you can vote for in the election depends heavily on what happens between elections.

"Antifascist" holy shit that's funny.

Lol, dems and "Antifascist coalitions"

Absolutely. Remember everyone: some of the people wearing your colors are only pretending to be on your side.
Don’t evaluate sources for loyalty; evaluate ideas for validity.
Know your own values, and get good at thinking critically. Then double check everything that you think, and that others are saying, to find out if there are any bugs or malicious code, changing outcomes away from what it should be per your values.
- Yup.
  I fully support a cease fire, but I also put ZERO blame on Biden for what another democratic country does.
  People blaming Biden for Israel are either trolls or massive morons that do not understand geopolitics.
  
  People really put America in the center of everything and act like they must do everything while also being angry at them for being the international police.
  Russia has a hand in Israel and the middle eastern conflicts as does China and India and Saudi Arabia. Why is Joe Biden responsible for everything? Congress is more responsible if anything deserves scrutiny.
  Calling him Genocide Joe because of another country's actions just exposes someone's stupidity and inability to view situations as complexly as they actually are.
  That said fuck Israel and Bibi can suck my turds I'd toss a brick at that fascist fuck if given the chance.
  
  Exactly this. And they’re beyond reasoning with. Best to just ask them who has a better chance to win in November and watch them squirm out of the conversation.
  It’s a lot easier to call them out for what they are this way than it is to argue with them.

I'm not from the USA. We have many Parties here, so maybe I'm out of touch a little.
But is it really that bad to vote some small 3rd Party? I think it's a big problem for Democracy if you only look on the two big parties. Yes it's completely unrealistic that a 3rd party gets enough votes to be the Government, but why be part of this Problem? And isn't a Vote for some small party STILL better than a vote for Trumps Party? Where is the difference to that my 0,001% goes to the Democratic Party or a smaller party? It's still 0,001% less for Trump.
Also, I just checked this Wikipedia Article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_the_United_States And based on this list, some small parties actually have some seats and even have some mayors somewhere. So it seems like the vote is not 100% wasted.
Isn't it better for Democracy to look on ALL parties?
The Party in Germany I'm a member of sadly lost their Seat in the European Parliament this election, but this will not be a reason to just give up. Even with only one single seat, the party actually did much Important work. So I will not move to a bigger party now. I will talk to many people and advertise my party and try to get us back on a seat next time.
Like I said, maybe I'm missing something in USA Politics. I don't know much about your system. Could someone explain to me why it's such a hated move to vote a 3rd Party in the USA? From my European viewpoint, I don't see why not. I'm here to understand.
- At scale the US system has too many layers of abstraction. We are not a direct democracy once you pass the small scale elections you mentioned. Those abstractions combined with first around the goalpost winning makes it so statistically the chance of third party success rounds to 0. So if you vote 3rd party in a major election when you otherwise would have voted Biden then you helped Trump because that 3rd party vote's only impact on the election was to reduce Biden's total by 1.
  The only chance 3rd party has of gaining ground is if we switched to ranked choice voting as this would allow people to realistically gauge and react to support for 3rd parties without aiding the major party they dislike in the meantime.
  Also need to ditch the Electoral College as it is the worst of our voting abstractions that is only amplified by gerrymandering.
  
  The way you put it, I would hardly even call it a democracy. Or let me rephrase that. It's a democracy but a really broken one.
  So the system would have to be fixed. And of course that won't happen because it would damage the parties that would need to fix it. Yea... really complicated.
  But at least locally, it should be fine to vote for 3rd parties. I see many seats there. You should try to get the choice in the places you can. (as long as the small parties aren't even worse, of course)
- You are not wrong, but missing essential context. The American electoral system more or less ensures there can never be more than 2 competitive parties in any given election.
  In some cases where republicans are not competitive, voting third party may be a reasonable strategy, but this is usually only the case in local races in very partisan districts.
  If you want multiparty democracy (which I agree would be an improvement), it’s far more important to advocate for electoral reforms that would allow such a thing than to actually vote for third parties. To do so actually gives up your influence and can be an act of self-sabotage, even if your goal is to support third parties.
  
  The American electoral system more or less ensures there can never be more than 2 competitive parties in any given election.
  Wait. So even with a larger amount of Votes on a 3rd Party, they would only allow the two biggest Parties in the Congress? I hope I just totally understood you wrong. Because if that's what you just said, then this is REALLY undemocratic.
- And based on this list, some small parties actually have some seats and even have some mayors somewhere. So it seems like the vote is not 100% wasted.
  On the national level, it's wasted. Essentially, the system used in the USA is called First Past The Post - the majority (or plurality) winner of the vote gets the office. No proportional representation. That means when there are two parties which are near clinching a majority (as in almost all national races here in the US), votes for a third party are wasted.
  
  But isn't that a big problem? This way, you always have to vote for the least bad outcome. Because as far as I often read, both aren't that great. If everyone only votes for these two Partys, I would hardly actually call that a democratic choice, and you keep this Problem going and going this way. Nothing could ever change.
  Yes, as a silent 3rd Party voter it's impossible to change anything. So you would need to have speak up. Speak about this problem. In my View, Americans are shooting in their own leg my hating everyone who is voting for something different.
  Wouldn't it be better to have a third, or heck even a fourth party with seats?
  In Germany, our Government even is always formed by two parties together. I think this is really good. This way, one single ideology doesn't have too much control over everything.
- But is it really that bad to vote some small 3rd Party?
  Not at all, 0%. But there's an order of operations. Work for ranked choice voting, work for outcomes on a smaller scale where a third party can gain functioning influence, work to pressure the Democrats to back away from some of their more fascist-y policies (which sometimes involves wielding threats of voting in particular ways that they might not like), work for better outcomes in ways which don't involve politicians at all.
  All of those sound great to me. Working for a system in which things can exist that aren't our current displeasing duopoly actually sounds like a critical part of making the whole system work again. But choosing to have 0 influence on an important (crucial) outcome, risking a total catastrophe, because you wish something better existed, seems pretty foolish in comparison to actually working to make that better thing exist for real (while avoiding catastrophe in the meantime).
- There is exceptional nuance to this question, so I will try to be direct:
  Essentially with the way elections work in America: the political parties form their governing coalition prior to the election.
  So a way of thinking of it is that functionally a political party in Europe is closer to a caucus in America.
  Third parties as a result are typically considered as extremists, ungoverable, or something to that effect: right or wrong. Even Independents unaffiliated with a party overwhelmingly caucus with one of the two parties anyway.
  The two party system effectively forms a permanent "Incumbent v Opposition" dynamic. So what can happen, which happened in the 19th century: is one party supplants another that fails. (Republican Party replaced the Whig Party over slavery issue.)
- Isn't it better for Democracy to look on ALL parties?
  I think so, yes.
  However, we have never had a third-party president (except for George Washington, our very first president, in 1789). Third-party presidential candidates are not taken very seriously, and usually just seen as “spoilers” - candidates who don’t have a serious chance of winning themselves, but can gain enough votes to cause either the Republican or Democrat candidate to lose.
  Third-party candidates get only superficial news coverage, and often aren’t included in presidential debates. Neither of the major parties want more competition, so these things are unlikely to change anytime soon.
- Most major progressive policy in the USA originated from third parties, including social security, 8 hour workdays, and women's suffrage.
  The major parties became tired of losing close races, so they adopted third party platforms. So no, it's not at all bad to vote third party in the USA, this server is just heavily Democrat.
  
  I don't have the feeling it's just this server. The opinion I also always get on other Social Media is that everyone who votes for a 3rd Party in the USA is seen as an idiot by most people.

Nowadays voting is only step 1
- yup, and people seem to not want to make step 2.
  just step 1 and gloat about it.
- Well, that's always been the case. But it is still an important step when there are only two candidates on the ballot, and one will severely damage left causes.

And at every other time of the political cycle they will be on and on about how they're the only ones who really take the threat of fascism in this country seriously.
- I mean, they claim that now, even as they say "It doesn't matter if a literal fascist gets in power; support for anti-fascist coalitions is unforgivable!"
  
  In the run-up to the 1932 German elections, the left-wing party was still calling the establishment-left party the "main" enemy, and fighting them in the streets and siphoning support away from them by running their own candidates in three-way elections that also included Hitler. A few years later, most of them were dead, since they were the very first of his targets, long before the Jews.

Hell of an antifascist coalition that throws its weight behind a party and candidate funding and arming and denying a genocide.
- In this shit universe you have to be pragmatic sometimes and pick the less fascist person to prevent even worse fascism. Nobody like it, but here we are.
  
  Okay. When do you have to be pragmatic and draw a red line? Where is that red line?

Party that supports multiple dictatorships pretends they don't like fascism

Oh no, another PugJesus meme post! Let me prepare myself for the out of touch opinion that he needs to express so much everyday: 🛏️😪

Count me in on the couch please, BRB after I donate another $4.24 to Biden.
- We're all in together to defeat fascism. We can tear each other apart over any differences we have after. 🤝

calling leftists fascists is the height of political illiteracy.
- Political illiteracy accusations from someone who thinks that Trump didn't try to stage an autocoup? Bold move.
  
  i think if he wanted a coup he could have had one. what he actually wanted was some showmanship and what he got instead was an unruly crowd.

fascist* coalitions. nothing antifa about it.
- My understanding of the comic is:
  The complainer is holding a MAGA hat so extrapolating that he actually is a MAGAT, he is letting the mask slip and admitting that MAGARepublicans are fascists, and people willing to vote for Biden are opposed to fascism.
  Is it your position that people willing to vote for Biden are fascists?
  
  no, my position is that he is not antifascist.

If genocide is a red line for voting than every citizen who has voted within our life time would have crossed it. Our whole political system upholds genocide from local to presidential. A red line and acceptable are not actual synonyms like you are inferring. I do things I don't find acceptable all the time because they are better than the other option and its less acceptable to allow the alternative to happen. I can have gencodie and fascism in america or just genocide. Neither is acceptable. One will happen whether I make a decision or not.

I love this meme

- We got one boys!
- When there is not enough popular support for the "best party", and revolutionary overthrow is non viable, then the "true mark of anti-fascism" is knowing when to vote for the least bad party and then continue campaigning and canvassing to pressure for better policy and candidates
  Its disgusting and it feels terrible, but (speaking broadly) if the progressive voter base leaves the a country's primary "left leaning" party, then the party will reach instead for center right voters to fill that gap, driving the party further right.
  I won't tell you prescriptively who to vote for, but please, give it some thought in good faith

Vote for Hitler and start a antifa club! All the cool kids do it!
Just be sure to endorse Genocide while you antifa!
- Every candidate supports genocide in either Ukraine or Gaza... except Bernie sort of.
  
  Bernie supports Israel. He went mask off at the start of the Genocide.

Rather than smugly shaming leftists who draw the line at genocide, you could instead spend your time pushing Biden to stop the slaughter, which would instantly win votes. It's telling that you don't 😉
- Another pro-Biden liberal trying to push leftists to vote for genocide. (They won’t, sorry)
  Funny, last I checked the terminally online MLs were advocating letting Trump win and genocide flourish.
  
  The genocide is flourishing right now, and the worst way to persuade a politician is to promise you'll vote for them no matter what.
- iT'S TeLlInG ThAt yOu dOnT
  What is it telling of exactly? Is this meant to imply that pug supports the Israeli campaign? That they're also a genocidal madperson?
  If you'll humor me for a moment... What happens if progressives pull support for biden and he doesn't change his position? What is the outcome of that scenario?
  
  Given two ways to help Biden win the election:
  Pressure Biden to stop the genocide.
  Pressure people to support Biden even though he'll continue the genocide.
  When someone chooses 2) and not 1), it's telling me that they'd rather see people accept Biden's Zionist goals than see Biden accept popular will.

- I suppose we should protect your garbage views?