What a CASHLESS society REALLY means
What a CASHLESS society REALLY means
282 comments
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To be fair, apart from the privacy aspects, they've chosen some of the worst arguments against a full cashless society. Seriously, piggy banks and birthday cards?
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Normal life. As much as people want to deny it, it’s actually really important.
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I think it's easier for us, as adults, to dismiss those things, but they bring kids joy and an opportunity to learn about the value of money and saving.
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God how we would suffer without piggy banks or garage sales.
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I though this whole post was sarcasm until I saw people's comments taking it seriously. Thanks for bringing sanity to this thread.
Also have any of you heard of instant transfers or crypto currency? So cringe.
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And giftcards will still exist, still traceable though.
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unfortunately. god they suck so much. they're like money, but worse in every way.
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Why do garage sales have to go away, I just went to one and used zelle to send the guy money.
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I was scratching my head with that one too. HOAs are doing a better job at killing the garage sale.
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HOAs only control 25-27% of housing in the US. A number that should be zero, but not enough to kill off all garage sales, by any stretch.
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I use my paypal card reader! Both when holding garage sales and when visiting, it's pretty normal and a lot of people use it without blinking.
If you pearl-clutching Christians fearful of change don't want a cashless society, maybe stop pouring all your support behind the political powers that want to see giant megacorporations flourish and crush out small businesses. The people who want to control your rmoney are not the banks nearly as much as the Walmart down the street that can now take credit card payments simply by glancing at the store as you pass.
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Whoever wrote this has very little imagination. Most of this is already not true
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This is some boomer facebook shit.
I have a Paypal credit card reader I keep with me because I do commissioned work on the side, it's the size of a stick of gum, I can take a payment anywhere, I've paid friends for dinner or other things with a quick tap and use it at garage sales.
Not saying I WANT a cashless society, nor do I think anyone is seriously pushing this issue because if you did away with cash people will come up with something to use as cash the very same day. But I do think this weird image/article is extremely 1-dimensional and likely published in some Christian magazine to reinforce the right-wing fear that anything will ever change at all.
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False dichotomy. Many, even most, of the examples given here could be accomplished in a cashless society (not that I'm actually advocating for one, but this is just factually incorrect).
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Grandma slipped me a secret credit chip connected to an illegal bank account in Panama, with $5 in it. You want a soda or something?
How would you accomplish these things without cash?
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I'm not sure how you would accomplish a secret credit chip, with or without cash, sorry.
Assuming we're talking about granny slipping her grandchild a few bucks though, what's stopping her? Nobody's proposing a system where under 18s are cut out of the economy. Everybody gets a bank account the moment they learn to crawl. Granny just sends the money to her favourite grandkid of the month.
None of this is hypothetical BTW, before you start trying to come up with scenarios why this doesn't work. This is literally the system in Norway.
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Most of these things would be solved with payment apps like Venno or CashApp.
You can also get pre-paid cards to give to homeless people on the street, or use a "garage sale" app that has digital payment options like OfferUp to sell your unwanted crap.
I also wouldn't want the banks to have full control, but I know there are already solutions to most of the problems listed in the image. The only one that seems accurate is the domestic violence one.
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Possibly with the exception of the domestic violence example, the examples that directly reference 'cash' make the least sense. Of course you can't give cash to your grandchildren, there's no more cash!
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When I was a kid my parents controlled my account and would take money out of it sometimes, sometimes to punish me for this reason or that (staying up late sneaking SNL back when it was good, for instance.) What they didn't control is the cash they didn't see my grandparents slip me on my birthday, and therefore they couldn't steal that. Sure "well they shouldn't have done that in the first place," but they did, or "you shouldn't have disobeyed your parents," ok whatever Mom, but I'm thankful I had my secret stash.
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For people who think that Crypto will solve these issues, it won't. In a mass-adoption scenario, a few coins will be accepted as currency while the rest remain mostly useless for commerce. Those orgs behind those coins and their exchange platforms will then become just like the banks of old. Any attempt at democratizing Crypto is illusory, it's a fantasy.
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"Crypto will fix that!"
By having a publicly visible ledger of all transactions ever recorded???
Monero would be the exception
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For people who think that Crypto will solve these issues, it won't. In a mass-adoption scenario, a few coins will be accepted as currency while the rest remain mostly useless for commerce.
That argument is entirely dependent on what the "few coins" hypothetically turn out to be. For example, regarding privacy, Monero is private by design.
Those orgs behind those coins and their exchange platforms will then become just like the banks of old. Any attempt at democratizing Crypto is illusory, it's a fantasy.
Are you arguing that it is inevitable that exchanges, or some other entity, will inevitably gain majority control of the networks of decentralized currencies?
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No government would ever allow coins like Monero to become main forms of currency. The potential for abuse and tax evasion is just too high. They would sooner ban them outright. No legitimate business would accept them then.
Accepting random alt coins would also come with the expense of having to track them and their wallets separately, exchange costs, volatility, etc, so over time just a few will become generally accepted by businesses.
And yes, the most likely consequence of long-term crypto usage is that users will centralize into a few trusted platforms who will get the Lion's share of tokens and power.
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Feel the same way about Linux tbh
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Probably, but at least you can just copy-paste your home folder across most distros as long as they're similar enough. Also your distro isn't quite as important as your personal finances lol. Even in the case of potential security issues, most people would rather have their PC hacked into than their bank acct.
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I live in New York City. The current way to pay for buses and subways is with a Metrocard. You can buy them at some stores and check cashing places, or at most subway stations. You can pay with cash or a card. Now, at great cost, they are introducing a 'better' system where you pay for your rides with a credit card or smart device. They are planning on getting completely rid of the Metrocards. Soon, they will be able to trace anyone's movements.
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trace anyone's movements
There's literally a GPS enabled mind control device in almost everyone's pocket.
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Yes but its not required to get around, airplane mode, and not everyone has their cell service tied to their name, etc.
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This same lame comment gets posted on every fucking internet post about Privacy. Stop it.
Not everyone uses a compromised phone with the GPS turned on all the time. Plenty of us put in effort to mitigate cell phone tracking, and anyone can leave their phone at home to completely eliminate tracking where they go.
FYI there are a number of privacy-focused Android distributions, and lots of options on Apple iOS to disable what can track you. Stop being complacent and protect your own privacy instead of hand-waving away the entire premise of Privacy.
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Yeah and there's a reason you can't drive unregistered and that reason has nothing to do with bad drivers.
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Take off the tinfoil hat, NYC is not planning to get rid of metrocards. The credit card payment ability is just a convenience feature to get more people riding transit.
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I mean, my tinfoil hat is on for the same reason - I haven't been arsed using Transport for London's Oyster card because there's a cost cap placed on all travel paid for by one single card. I suppose my bank has my details already so it'd better that than having another party with my data... and another card to lose, more likely.
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Bruh what you can buy omny cards for cash in stores.
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You can buy preloaded credit cards with cash from convenience stores. It's as trackable as your MetroCard.
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I used my phone to tap and pay back in December '21. Not a new thing.
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Call it what it really is - a backdoor registry.
Guns, books, contraceptives... whatever an oppressive government may be interested in having a registry of, they have one by default once anonymous payments are destroyed.
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Guns, books and contraceptives. Great list.
You forgot 3d printers.
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Yeah. Recent court records suggested the feds do (or did at one point) request purchase records of 3D printers. So those probably are on a list.
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don't worry, the politicians will never block themselves from receiving suitcases full of money
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They don't receive suitcases of money. Their wives law firms get steady business from a network of donors. Their kids get past the fancy school acceptance filters despite being block heads. They're invited to speak at an overseas conference where they do one event and then 30 days of vacation. Their fake biographies of overcoming hardship get sold out and given out for free by their political party. They can trade stock with insider knowledge.
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There famously were some cases in Germany, but yeah, they also did more stealth things, like book contracts for example.
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https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/12/politics/menendez-gold-cash-what-matters/index.html
just saying - they actually, really do receive suitcases of money.
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I love how in a PRIVACY Lemmy community there are people who actually, unironically argue for a dystopian cashless society.
We're all fucked, aren't we?
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No one is arguing for a cashless society though?
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I'm sure someone, somewhere is. The bigger problem is that society seems to be moving in that direction without first having a serious debate about whether it's a good idea.
I take a hard line and hold the position that, if you're in business, you should be required to accept legal tender (maybe only up to a threshold where Know Your Customer laws kick in). There's a strong social value in there being spaces for unmonitored transactions.
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Sweden is a mostly cashless society. Let me try to respond to those points
- In case of domestic violence, you go to the police.
- You can still give individual people money with things like Swish. Yes, even "homeless" people have swish and they use it. Kids of all ages can have swish.
- It costs 0(for individuals) or 10-30 cents(for companies) to transact on swish and minimum transaction is basically 10cents(1sek).
There are privacy issues and it is kinda controlled by banks. Maybe eventually things like digital euro can improve on that in the future. You can have an anonymous digital payment system with near 0 fees, it is just that the governments arent incentivized to do it. Thats where cryptocurrency could fit, if it wasnt a pump and dump, to the moon hellhole.
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Let me try to respond back:
- Depending on your situation, your identity, your society, you cannot always rely on the police helping you. There are lots of documented cases of discrimination (e.g. racism) at police institutions in all kinds of regions across the globe. The companies probably don't want to delete the data any time soon, so there is a chance that this data persists for decades. What if your country chances and starts discriminating or harassing whatever group you belong to? Can you guarantee that your government/society won't flip the switch on any group of society within their lifetime? Can you guarantee that nobody ever wants to visit a country which their group will be discriminated or persecuted?
- If the homeless person does not own a smartphone, how do they receive money on their Swish account, yet create a swish account? How does a person without documents create a swish account?
- In your case, Swish seems to be a digital gatekeeper. What prevents them from going rogue, increasing prices or discriminating people? I recommended reading Jaron Lanier's Gadget for understanding the power of digital monopolies.
If the first point does not convince you, here are 2 examples:
- gay dating apps: It repeatedly happened that information from gay dating apps were leaked, sold or extorted to bad governments. Those governments discriminated or persecuted, in some cases killed people just for being homosexual. Chances are high that a gay person has some digital traces to that, e.g. in Swish. Cashless puts them even more at risk in countries like Egypt. https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/apr/03/jailed-for-using-grindr-homosexuality-in-egypt
- In the 1930s, a lot of Jews in Europe were identified through state documents which (unnecessarily) mentioned their religion. In some locations, brave people protected them by destroying, hiding or faking state documents.
In other words: If your society changes, any data that exists may be turned against you, even costing your life and the lives of your closest people. Avoiding to have this data saves lives and protects minorities.
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If your society changes
This is why I know that I'll end up on a list if things go as poorly as I expect in the USA during my lifetime.
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Swish is partly owned by the Central Bank of Sweden(which is 100% state owned) so it is basically state owned. But as with the digital euro, the private banks play a big part and atm are needed in order to facilitate the digital transactions. This could change in the future.
Your points are societal points and not currency related points. You are right, there are significant issues with swish, you basically need to be a swedish citizen(have a "personal number"). A lot of things in Sweden are gatekeeped by needing a "personal number". This is an obstacle even for other EU(Schengen) europeans.
Societies are built with the majority in mind. There are holes that need to be fixed. But the existence of holes does not mean that they cant be fixed.
As far as privacy is concerned, you are right, this is a big attack on privacy. But it doesnt have to be, it is just that the governments want it to be. Not because of some megalomaniacal genocidal plan but for tax and criminal issues. Could it be used for more nefarious plans in the future? Sure. You can always use a cryptocurrency like monero though.
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I think the only one that doesn't really hold up is 1. There's a lot of coercive control tied up with domestic violence that would make it hard for a victim to call the police for help.
Having said that, in the UK you can open a bank account with a new company in a matter of minutes then transfer money to it and be out of the situation before any paperwork turns up showing what you did.
Many of our banks have specific provisions in place to help victims of domestic violence. Including one that'll set you up with a safe account and an emergency fund that doesn't need to be repaid. https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/tsb-launches-emergency-flee-fund-for-domestic-abuse-victims-how-are-other-banks-helping-arSND8h82lGJ
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In case of domestic violence, you go to the police.
This was such an oddly specific "worry" that it kind of plays the hand of the target demographic as well as the intention of the snippet. Along with the weird bits about birthday cards and ice cream, it just screams propaganda for midwest Christian-leaning grandmothers and housewives.
Right-wing, conservative Christian housewives who hand-wring about everything ALL put away stashes of money to hide from their 1-dimensional husbands who are usually somewhere on the abusive spectrum. I lived much of my life out in the outskirts of cities where the rednecks nest and breed, there are some very predictable stereotypes out there. One of the most common talking points on the far-right Christian slice of America is the perpetual warning that the Anti-Christ is going to take control of all the money and bring the entire planet under his control, and he will enact a one-world currency, take away everyone's cash and guns and then everyone will have to get some chip in their wrist and that will be the Mark of the Beast, blah blah blah, fear-mongering and superstition and mindless worry.
Nobody will ever take away physical money entirely because the moment you do, people will invent one. So if you don't want unregulated Nuka Cola bottlecaps being traded for goods and services in your country, you need to maintain an official currency.
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In case of domestic violence, you go to the police.
What a bizarre disconnect from reality. You have waaay too much confidence in police power (and assumptions about actionable evidence), capability, and motivation, and no idea about battered women living in fear of the next attack, which a restraining order does not necessarily stop, if you can get one, especially if the next attack is a bullet. A cop who checks on a battery victim will be told “that big bruise on my cheek is from falling down the stairs”.
Domestic violence victims need options. You’re advocating for taking options away. That’s fucked up.
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Conservatives making things up and getting mad about it
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huh? anyone can dislike going cashless, since when do conservatives care about domestic abuse victims for example? conservatives generally perpetrate domestic abuse!
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This domestic abuse thing sounds to me like a "pull up yourself by the bootstrap" situation kind of myth. Are there women who can stash thousands away to prepare to flee, but cannot somehow have a bank account? That sounds so unrealistic, it seems to me more of an excuse to tell abused people they are just "not trying hard enough".
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indeed. This was recently surveyed in fact:
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well they can't say the parts they're actually angry about so we get this bullshit roll.
it's very much like racism, they won't come out and say they don't like people of color, they'll simply come up with a dozen ways to discriminate against them but say it's personal freedom, etc.
they're angry about not being able to pay people under the table, about not being able to skim the petty cash etc.
downvoters, debate, show me I'm wrong lol
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... but what if I was in a place without mobile phone reception and nanna wanted to buy a toy from a homeless person having a garage sale to give to my kid?!
See... you just haven't thought this whole cashless thing through.
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Not that I think society should be cashless but why couldn't you donate to homeless people and do garage sales in a cashless society?
Pretty much everyone has a phone here, including beggars and homeless people. It's a necessity these days.
My country is basically cashless (as in almost no one uses cash and quite a few stores don't accept it at all) and we just send money with an app that almost everyone uses. It's easier than cash, bank transfers, and cards. It's also instant.
Hell, I have even gotten some money from my grandparents that way a few years ago.
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It might be theoretically possible where there is cell service, but keep in mind that a lot of homeless people do not have and are unable to get bank accounts. De-banking can be and is used as a tool to control people generally. Being cashless might be benign if you are in a situation where the banks, financial apps, and governments can be trusted not to weaponize their absolute control over everyone's money, but in many places they cannot.
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They could make the digital money invalid at stores they don't like, they could make it invalid for buying something they don't want you to buy
Credit card companies already do this.
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Well I think banks have a few laws that prevent those things. But remembering the Pornhub incident where MasterCard and Visa stopped their partnership to strongarm them. In that case the motivation was child safety and not greed. But it was a display of power.
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If you deposit your money at a bank, or PayPal, or some online digital bank transfer service,** you do not have your money anymore.** They have your money.
Now you have some kind of contract that says they'll give you your money on demand. But sometimes they won't give it to you when you want it. If any judge or cop wants to see every person or business I've ever transacted with the bank will happily give it over.
On the other hand, cash is cash. If I possess it, then I have it. And nobody gets to know how much, or how suspicious, or with whom I'm transacting.
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On the other other hand, in the U.S. if you are pulled over by the police with cash, they can choose to seize that cash just because carrying cash looks suspicious. They don't need to charge you with a crime. If the cash was in a bank, they'd need to go through a lot more process to seize it -- the cops typically can't just walk into the bank and demand it.
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Yea, but that's a different problem.
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If you deposit money at a bank, it is covered by federal deposit protection insurance (up to some limit that varies by country but generally in the range of $100k-$250k), so you are guaranteed to be able to get it back no matter what. Even if the bank fails. Banks are subject to extremely strict regulation to protect consumers and make sure you have access to your funds
PayPal is not a bank, it's an EMI (e-money institution), but those are heavily regulated to protect consumers. Your funds are not covered by deposit protection insurance, but as an EMI they have to keep your money in a safeguarding account at a real bank and they can't use it themselves, so in case PayPal fails you will still get your money back. Revolut in the UK is another example of a non-bank EMI
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If you deposit money at a bank, it is covered by federal deposit protection insurance (up to some limit that varies by country but generally in the range of $100k-$250k), so you are guaranteed to be able to get it back no matter what.
Time matters. Those insurance claims take months to process and they only cover bankruptcy (which is the least likely reason a bank denies you access to funds).
The copy of my ID card that the bank had on file expired. I renewed it on time but did not think to update the bank with a new copy. The bank’s way of communicating to me that their records of my card were out of date was to freeze my account. Boom, just like that, I have no money all of the sudden. I don’t recall the time of day it happened, but if it had happened on a Friday night I would not have access to my money until I appear in person at the bank Monday morning --- assuming it’s even possible to get off work. At that time, I kept an empty fridge.. only eating on the go. Had I not had cash on hand, getting food could have been a struggle.
Even if the bank fails. Banks are subject to extremely strict regulation to protect consumers and make sure you have access to your funds
LOL! Those so-called strictly enforced banking regs are not for us. Banks are scared shitless of AML/KYC shit hitting the fan. Banks laugh at the consumer protection variety of regs with reckless disregard. It’s a joke. I’ve reported banks in breach of consumer rights. The bank’s regulators do fuck all. One reculator responded to me and said “why don’t you switch banks”. I shit you not. That came from a regulator who’s job it was to enforce a law that the bank was breaking.
PayPal is not a bank, it’s an EMI (e-money institution), but those are heavily regulated to protect consumers. Your funds are not covered by deposit protection insurance, but as an EMI they have to keep your money in a safeguarding account at a real bank and they can’t use it themselves, so in case PayPal fails you will still get your money back.
No, that’s not how it is. PayPal has a reputation for copious extremely out of whack “anti-fraud” false positives. I was burnt by it. Paypal blocked my acct and kept my money. There are many similar complaints.
https://git.disroot.org/cyberMonk/liberethos_paradigm/src/branch/master/rap_sheets/paypal.md
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Sad to see all the Monero fans and no GNU Taler fans here
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Yeah, it's popular among the crypto folks. But GNU Taler has advantages over Monero. Buyers are also untraceable, but sellers are not. So they are taxable, which is pretty neat. The EU and Swiss governments are experimenting with it and for them the taxation part is kind of valuable.
Edit: Ah, and it also doesn't rely on a blockchain, so offline transactions are feasible etc.
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Spot on. The wild part is that people will still justify it and even hope for it. The replies here are evidence of that. You can't fix stupid, sadly.
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Some restaurants deliberately stopped accepting cash to exempt homeless people from patronage. Imagine being so gross that you change your policies to bar people from getting food.
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Is that the real reason? Or because it's a) safer for the shop (no cash on hand) and b) much simpler for the staff (no counting money, figuring out change etc...)
Not everything is purely about being evil you know....
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I don't wear earbuds to make it easier to ignore people who try to approach me on the sidewalk, but I definitely appreciate it when I ignore them and they move on. Both can be true at the same time.
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yeah, a shop near me started accepting cash again after being cashless for a while.
why?
because their staff were being abused by a few people.
now it takes them more time (read: costs them more money) to count and sort the money, and they have to store it, which isn't safe, so they need to spend more money on security. Oh, and banks aren't open outside business hours, so someone needs to leave the shop to deposit money (which takes time and fuel, both costing money).
Suffice to say, they are unhappy about using cash again.
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Imagine being so gross that policies are changed to bar you from getting food.
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We aren't at the point as a society to be fully cashless. Maybe someday it could work but I think that day is very far away. Look how fucked up even the most basic parts of society are. We can't even get societies and cultures to live together in peace or something that resembles balance and harmony. Lack of privacy and security is holding back the star trek future. Trying to make these good intentioned theoretical changes in society before society is humanly ready will fuck us all.
I think humanity is a lot further behind than most think. ... And it almost feels like social life and community is getting more and more primitive, wild, and fragmented as time goes on. These different future paths are marketed from and for them, the corporations and greedy, not for the benefit of us.
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Some places are basically cashless already though, look at Sweden
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There are many places in larger cities that will or accept cash. Many do it the name of safer practices (can’t be robbed if you ever have cash), but it’s still leading to the same outcome.
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They're protesting an awful lot for something that is so far away
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We need cash but these are just silly reasons and hurt the idea more than they help
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Debit is cash but
We can tap for yard sales and homeless people
People include gift cards in birthday cards or etransfer
You could do that for your child’s teeth
Oh no, what will i do without a ceramic pig
Last 4 points I’m sure you can figure out also aren’t true
And if you’re worried about being tracked then surely you don’t use a phone/go online/appear in public
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cash is to currency what monero is to crypto, couldn't live without either
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I've always wondered how hard it is to mine monero. Any experience with mining it? Sounds like an interesting side project.
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if you're interested in mining find a mining pool, solo mining's just not worth it, unless you have 6+ gpus
here an official guide: https://www.getmonero.org/get-started/mining/
here a mining calculator: https://www.coinwarz.com/mining/monero/calculator
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I've been cashless for about a decade now. I have no problem with donating money, giving or recieving monay as a gift. I never give the homeless money, but I often buy them food. Why couldn't you buy or sell something to people? You can easily transfer someone a small sum of money using their phone number. Same with garage sales. When was the last time You saw a Piggy Bank?
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Some people already live in a cashless (and moneyless) society already - the homeless and those who are incarcerated. Also children. They tend to barter and trade for stuff. It's not that crazy of an idea, most people figure it out.
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Thank you for you're intelligent and insightful comment
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no.
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Marketplace is illegal now? Also, if everyone is cashless, don't you think garage sale people accept cashless?
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Where does it say marketplace would be illegal? The bank fraud thing seems like a stretch but technically possible and that be the same risk at a garage sale.
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This is so myopic. Most of the world can send money via email. None of those things in the bottom will go away, save for a few tangibles. The gestures and transactions can still absolutely happen.
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Every single point raised in this post is already solved with current technology.
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The author has never seen a check.
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Yes, I'll gladly deposit this check into the bank for homeless people. Right after I give half of it to my friend whose partner harasses them and controls their accounts
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the bank for homeless people
Which is a real thing, in this hypothetical.
Right after I give half of it to my friend whose partner harasses them and controls their accounts
The accounts they know about.
Even if you still scoff at these: that's two out of nine. The rest are pretending people can't give money to other people... for some reason. Three of them are just rephrasing "no garage sales." Yeah, you can't sell your couch for a bit of cash if there's no cash, but you can still sell your couch, for money.
Bad arguments for good conclusions are still bad arguments.
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- Banks have full control of every single cent you own.
• Every transaction vou make is recorded.
That sounds like a fair deal to me!?
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Really?
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Not really, no. Imagine a "/s" at the end of my post. :)
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I think we need to ban cash
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Crypto solves all these issues. Can't wait for cash to finally die for good.
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LOL.
LMAO, even.
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Crypto is this:
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Can't wait for crypto to be fully adopted
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So that everyone can see everything, instead of just the banks.
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There are advantages. All bribes are visible to everyone.
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Monero my friend, monero
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Dude, crypto is pretty much dead.
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BTC is breaking price records as several world governments start to officially adopt it as an ETF, and this guy says "crypto is pretty much dead".
My fucking sides. Get real, my dude. Crypto has never been more alive, and this is just the beginning. Check the price if you don't believe me.
Fucking LOL
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"No cash donations to hungry homeless you pass"
i.e. Drug addicts and mental patients that you keep giving money to, so they tell all their friends and you start stocking up on vagrants in the area.
Stop fucking doing this. Volunteer at a soup kitchen, give homeless food, etc -- stop giving them cash to spend on drugs and alcohol. This just enables their own self-destructive habits and doesn't help them.
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They’re having a shit life. If a dollar or 2 here and there helps them have a less shitty imma do what I want with my money.
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Homeless in Oslo take card
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mental patients are self destructive in the same way cancer patients are.
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Dear Faust, this is worst human I met today.
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Dear Darwin, this is the most naive human I've met this week.
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282 comments