Seeing a lot of this lately...

The two current candidates are so far apart the people who claim to be undecided are ignorant or stupid, willingly or otherwise. I'd understand riding the fence between Biden and Bernie, even if I've made my choice between them, but between Trump and Biden?

That's the kind of person who is undecided if they want to drive to work or walk down the middle of i-95

Well I hope that goes the right way for you over there.

then they should be doing something to make voters want to turn out.

In Canada at the federal level the Conservatives are on their way to have a majority using this exact tactic, they're voting against anything the government tries to do (even stuff they asked for in the past) and they're promising to make everything better once elected, no one knows how, not even them.

Exactly this. It just boils down to manufacturing consent for the other guy’s terrible policies, and results in hopelessness leading to voter apathy. Braindead strategy with 0 concept of leadership.

I think it depends on the context and the details.

If your sell is “I’m not Mitt Romney,” that is pretty weak, even if you don’t like Romney.

If your sell is “I’m not Donald Trump,” that is a much more compelling thing to consider. I mean the fucker is on trial for and got impeached for some things that are truly heinous to see from a random schmuck, never mind the freaking President of the US.

It's a losing strategy politically because people are too fucking dumb to vote against someone holding a gun to their head unless someone else is promising them a unicorn, but as a potential voter, it's an exceptionally good reason to get off your ass and actually vote for a candidate who can win.

What about “the economy is actually doing great Jack!” ?

It's really hard to vote if you don't have a home address, so those unhoused people don't matter in our system.

Here you go:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_executive_actions_by_Joe_Biden

All of it is pretty decently documented.

Care to offer an actual list?

They gave you a list. You go find the links if you're so hell bent on handwaving them away.

If less people like you voted for trump, he wouldn't have to negotiate with those assholes

I really despise that liars like this exist

Well, horses and dogs both have four legs, so clearly they're identical

So he makes no concessions, nothing gets done, and then we'd be sitting here saying he's not doing enough.

1 he always supported it, so if you say "until" you just didn't care until it went hot, 2 I don't think it changes it that his opponent supports it harder, but it does speak to your options.

Until then he was doing meh. After that he was also doing meh, because that has been the official policy of the US for at least the last 50 years.

So you have either "meh" or "let's do turbo genocide and have oil companies write environmental policy" (not even going into all the criminality). I find "meh" to be the clearly superior option, even if it doesn't align with my politics.

He was doing pretty bad up to that point, thus why his approval rating was dogshit. Gaza simply made him unelectable by those who might've been able to hold their nose to avoid Trump.

Also, many of the things you listed here are basically just "not Trump/not Republicans" in their own way.

• substitutes everything the candidate runs on to "I'm not the other guy", because the other guy doesn't run on those things
• accuses candidate of running on "I'm not the other guy"

I'm Canadian and have absolutely no dog in this fight.

Then kindly shut the fuck up. I'm an American, I've ACTUALLY had to live in this country with Trump and Biden as president, and it's no contest for me. I'd take Biden at his worst over Trump any day. That doesn't mean Biden is good, it means Trump is just that fucking bad.

Are you stupid or do you just watch Fox

There are no good options. Right now it seems they either support Israel or don't support Ukraine. No one is on the right side(imo) on both options. Sanders is the closest but even he wants strings attached to Ukraine aid.

It's pretty rare for anyone to praise Biden on his own merits, especially on Lemmy. So maybe don't get so irate because in comparison to trump, people praise him

And yes you have every dog in this fight, the US is kinda fuckin important for global stability

You're never going to get these people to acknowledge any of this stuff.

They'll still be defending whatever Biden 2.0 clone is in office a few cycles from now because "He only sent half the number of people to the gas chamber compared to [Identical GOP Incumbent]!"

Positive change in the American system usually comes from the bottom up. If you're interested in fixing the system, the first step is to switch your local elections to Approval Voting, probably through a referendum. There's a whole bunch of reasons, and lots of second and third steps, but that's the first one.

It is impossible. Most people don't see a problem with this. Especially the trolls who have more power than they should.

The only time things have even marginally changed in the US there's been violence. Civil rights, suffrage, the labor movement, ending slavery: All of them required thugs cracking skulls before they could happen.

So unless we have about 10% of the population willing to put themselves in harm's way we're stuck like this.

Do you really believe that nothing has changed over the decades? That seems like a very privileged stance.

Sort of. On one side, they already benefit when the system is more fair, while the other side does everything in their power to rig the system in their favor, trying to lock their opponents out of ever having a chance.

Look at what Texas is trying to do. They're trying to lock statewide office behind the barrier of number of counties voting for them instead of population. That way Democrats will never again have a statewide office as all the tiny counties with almost no population are Republican-leaning.

So while one side is happy with the status quo, the other side is fighting tooth and nail to make the rules less fair.

They won’t change it unless citizens make them change it.

They'll send a fucking SWAT team to the house of any citizen tries to change it.

Honestly I’m kind of losing hope that it’s even possible at this point.

At some point, "we just need to vote for the most right-wing Democrat and then blame the leftists any time we lose" is not a productive long term strategy.

You need to study the two parties closely, from honest and reliable news resources. The parties are worlds apart. You will find corruption in any system unfortunately.

Except, as far as I can tell, the system is designed such that citizens can't make them change it-- what are you going to do, vote for nobody and force the government to fix it's shit before electing a new president? I mean, you could revolt but I think we all know how quickly the government would act to squash any meaningful attempt to. And if Project 2025 is allowed to play out, then military can be dispatched to handle simple protests instead of the police, so good luck pressuring the government to do anything at that point.

They already put snipers on rooftops at every University for the Palestine protests. Supposedly this was for public safety as there was intel that things would turn violent, but who really knows the truthfulness of such intel or where the order came down from? When the military becomes your police, this act would pale in comparison.

Remember this when you go to the polls, or when you are considering not to.

Sure. I agree it won't change unless citizens push for a change. But choosing to not participate is not pushing for a change. That's just capitulation. Choosing to not vote is not a signal of protest. It's a signal of someone who doesn't care what the outcome is.

Voting is the first and most basic step in pushing for change. Doing more is good, but you definitely can't skip that step.

We live in a society…. yaaawn….. zzzz

I've been voting consistently in every election since I turned 18 in the year 2000.

There isn't any lube if you lose. And you lose constantly. Depending where you are you lose literally every time. I never voted for Scott Perry but that asshole is still my rep.

And even if you win some court somewhere, or a couple hundred idiots in another state, or lobbyists can decide you don't get lube.

Don't expect lube.

there's primaries

Except not really because everyone said they won't run they'll just let Biden have it

I have never voted for the person I want my state's delegates to go to, because that person lost the primary.

What if I don’t like any of them?

Join the club.

I would play a game that’s more productive and enjoyable.

That's not possible. We voted on what game we're playing and we glued the cartridge into the console. Much to my disappointment we don't get to change the game, or not play, or even ignore it.

It's a stupid world and we all live in it.

But it doesn’t matter, because casting a vote for Ralph Nader from my bright red state of Texas is still the reason Al Gore lost Florida in a 5-4 SCOTUS decision.

Exactly: The system is built to let them win as much as possible. You're not going to ever beat it. It's like Getting Over It with Bennett Foddy except even more frustrating and without the pleasant voiceovers.

That's an early-stage FPTP system. After a bunch of people with minority support start winning you end up with two options, and you vote against the one you hate least because there's not really a choice anymore.

With no offense intended, I feel this could be worded a little better. It could also just be my tired brain, though.

FUCKING FACTS

You know the US does this too, right?

I'm not disagreeing.

Yes, but when we do it it's for the greater good. Not the same.

No, not everyone that disagrees with me is a secret agent. A good chunk of them are. The rest are the idiots that believe and agree with them.

I'm still waiting for a good argument about how no voting or voting 3rd party gets better outcomes.

Maybe I'm the idiot for thinking there might be a good argument for it. Who knows?

"I'm unable to grasp nuance" There's one of you in every thread.

This is the definition of bad faith, kids.

THIS MESSAGE (MATERIAL) WAS CREATED AND (OR) DISTRIBUTED BY FOREIGN MASS MEDIA AS FOREIGN AGENT AND (OR) RUSSIAN JURIDICIAL PERSON FUNCTIONING AS FOREIGN AGENT

Sure.

I want to see who upvoted this comment so I can block them.

Election interference. Disguising yourself as the opposite side you're on is not wanted on any platform.

Literally all you can do is vote against Trump or for him...what the fuck are u smoking?

Dude go back to logic 101. Anyone else you vote for is "against Trump".

Of course, there's exactly one way to vote against Trump, but something tells me you're a rightwing troll or some other kind of dishonest player.

You can, his name is Joe Biden.

Shitty comparison. When people vote blue because it's "not Trump," they typically dislike Biden to some degree. When people vote red because it's "not Biden," they typically do not dislike Trump.

No, Trump supporters are all voting for Trump because they want Trump.

Hoppe

Bruh

Play some sports, little guy

Eh, the founders more or less ensured that a wealthy land-owning aristocracy would be able to overrule the will of the people if need be. That's more or less what the SCOTUS is there for, to ensure things don't get too democratic.

The US was an early modern democracy, but has never been a particularly good one.

It's a shame they made it so hard to modify. Both the 2/3 of both houses or 3/4 of states routes are quite unfeasable when there are only two quite polarised parties... :-/

Even the founding fathers anticipated a lot of reforms and for the whole thing to become obsolete quite soon

...which is why they built a mechanism into it to make alterations. But the people upset about things like the electoral college don't have the support necessary to use that mechanism.

The whole 2 parties thing isn't even in the constitution tho, is it? I'm not American so I might not be as familiar with the details

How is breaking the railroad steike being pro union?

And I bet you’re the kind of person who thinks “bOtH sIdEs ArE tHe SaMe”

No he's right. The campaign itself sells fear of Trump but stops short of calling us Trump supporters. Nancy Pelosi on the other hand accused us all of being Russian bots.

No, but it’s telling that you’re so small-minded that you figure this is a good assumption.

Yes-- campaigns that involve influencing people's opinions with covert guerrilla campaigns across social media with no accountability. Among the other shady tactics in their playbooks.

If you aren't seeing the campaign because they aren't reaching you, you still aren't seeing this, and just being told what to think.

You're basically reiterating my point, but somehow appear to be excusing being a sheep.