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If you ask me, the point isn’t to not vote for Biden, but rather to show him that’s vote for him isn’t automatic just because the opponent is Trump. Maybe if Biden listened when a lot of people said he was too old and lot people said don’t give Israel weapons used to kill women and children he wouldn’t be in this predicament. It’s funny how the leftists in do the same thing they always do that only works for millionaires work and then get mad at the working class when they don’t vote for them.
The Democrats chose Biden in 2019, 2020. The thing is, the Democratic party is, itself, right wing. Neoliberalism is pretty far right, it's just not crazypants far right than the Republican party.
If you're EU centrist, you don't have a voice in Washington. Heck, the Democratic party is looking for ways to oust Occasio-Cortez and Sanders, no matter how popular their positions might be.
Don't vote for Biden, rather vote against the GOP. Any vote for a Republican is a vote to end democracy and let them rule as autocrats. Any vote against the Republican party (specifically your one vote for the next popular guy -- that is, the Democrat) is a vote to hold onto the US' meager democratic features.
If you're wanting to make a statement, your vote for officials is not where to make it, no matter how fervent your feelings about it. Elections are where you get to choose between King Log and King Heron. (And Heron will eat all the frogs.) Make your grievances known through other activism.
Engage in mutual aid now, so that you don't have to engage in sabotage and resistance against an overwhelming foe later.
If you want to make a point your vote in the only place to do it. Sure you can march in the streets for party change, but if you are going to vote for the person anyways you won’t be taken seriously. The point of all this is to show Dems that a Biden vote isn’t guaranteed like they think it is.
As I said, your vote isn't for the Democrats, it's against the Republicans.
The first amendment right to petition our representatives for the redress of grievances is a right with no teeth. Our representatives cannot listen and retain their career. This is an example of regulatory capture and government failure.
But activism is not just about sending messages to officials, rather it's about resisting, whether causing inconvenience through civil disobedience to organizing to outright sabotage (such as blowing up oil pipelines ). If you cant participate in civil action yourself, support those who do. Materially, if possible, but even thank you letters and cookies can help.
The US is dying. But we can hang on until the GOP dies first, or we can let them take over and burn out in a blaze of facism and war, in which case you can be sure Palestine will be razed to the ground.
In the meantime, the Biden administration is arranging for air drops and trying to secure an armistice, no matter what a dick Biden is, the White House seems aware the clime has change regarding universal tolerance of the Palestinian holocaust.
A democracy where you vote against a candidate is a failed democracy.
I agree! But it is the state of the federal government in the US. Then again, at the point they included the Electoral College and the 3/5s clause in the Constitution, the democracy of the US was made in bad faith anyway, at least it was founded as a means by which aristocracy ruled without a permanent king.
But any election system that uses first-past-the-post voting is going to ultimately fail as a democracy, since they always reduce to two party systems. One-person-one-vote means you'll always be voting against the worst evil by voting for the next guy, and it is an indictment of the US that we've not been able to get any election reform through. At least not in federal elections. Some states have made a little bit of progress.
It's also telling that SCOTUS is able to veto anything or even legislate from the bench when a group controls a majority of the judges, such as the Federalist Society. Yes, the US system sucks, which is why we're stuck surviving it, rather than striving to change it for the better.
At what point would you not vote for Biden in order to stop Trump?
Not sure the tipping point, but being named Bernie would do it for me
Did voting for Biden stop Trump this last election? How many times are we supposed to vote Democrat against our own interests and better judgment until Trump is successfully stopped? What about when Trump stops being the face of fascism, an ideology and not a man, and the fascists prop up another candidate? Will it always be "neoliberalism or fascism" every election from here until fascism wins anyway because neoliberalism doesn't work for the majority of people either?
Did voting for Biden stop Trump this last election?
Um, yes? It didn't stop Trump from breathing, but it stopped him from being president this term. Even if it somehow eliminated Trump, there is always the next Trump. There is no point where we can stop fighting to preserve past victories, even as we fight for new ones.
How many times are we supposed to vote Democrat against our own interests
None. Voting Democrat is always in your interests. (At least until something major changes) Voting corrupt Democrats out in primaries is even moreso. It would be nice if we lived in a system that can support more than two parties, but we don't.
Will it always be "neoliberalism or fascism" every election
That's why we fight to take over the Democratic party. Every obstacle to defeating Democrats in primaries has a corresponding obstacle to winning a general with a third party candidate. Winning as a third party is both more difficult, and more risky.
You want a shortcut, but there isn't one.
I don't have much to respond to because I appreciate what you've said and even agree for the most part, however:
Voting Democrat is always in your interests.
The Democratic party is not some force of good, and their administrations and policies still harm the working class and other marginalized groups. They just manage to do less harm and placate us slightly more than their primary opponents.
Voting democrat is more in my interest than voting Republican, but not as much as having an ancom in office. It is not in my interest in general, as I will still be shooting myself in the foot because it's better than having someone else shove electrodes into my brain.
You may say that it's the effect of "corrupt dems," but that's a myopic understanding of the party and its motives. It is an ideologically driven party, it's just that that ideology is an uncomfortable truth: liberal capitalism. In service of that, it allows the input of marginalized groups, but will never allow us to gain full autonomy and control over our own lives as that would not serve capital.
I refuse to buy this narrative that any progress be made has to be made under the banner of a particular party/organization/group.
This "they'll win anyway" is some miserly nihilistic take - we've won against the Nazis before we'll win again.
"how many times are as supposed to vote to prevent the fascists from gaining power?"
Until you can no longer physically vote.
You are part of a society that still allows you to politically organise around your beliefs, so get involved in your local politics and help bring your vision of a better future to more people - change doesn't happen by itself.
Join a union. Get out there and make it happen.
Please do not project onto me when addressing my questions/comments. Just because I get frustrated with "vote blue no matter who" rhetoric online doesn't mean I cease existing offline; I do have a life irl where I have been occasionally known to engage in my community and political projects.
“how many times are as supposed to vote to prevent the fascists from gaining power?”
despite the quotation marks, that is not a question I asked. Please do not put words in my mouth
This “they’ll win anyway” is some miserly nihilistic take - we’ve won against the Nazis before we’ll win again.
I am not a nihilist, and, based on context, I don't think you meant that word anyway. Perhaps "defeatist"?
Paraphrasing me as saying "they'll win anyway" in regards to fascists (nazis or otherwise) strips what I said of important context: my point was that if the rhetoric stagnates in the choice of "neoliberalism or fascism" the fascists will eventually get a win for two reasons:
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the status quo, neoliberalism, isn't working out for the majority of people, and historically whenever that happens, societies undergo major upheaval. If the public only ever knew two options prior to that revolution, they—as a mob, not a collection of rational individuals—will take the second
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It frames the fight in such a way where the fascists "only have to be lucky once. You will have to be lucky always."
I didn't project beyond what conclusions your comment lead me to.
Please do not put words in my mouth
See, if I were to quote you directly I would have done it like this.
Instead I used quotes without the indent, to paraphrase you in a way that I thought both accurately condensed and focused what you wrote in a way that highlighted what it came across to me as a ridiculous question.
Given the threaded discussion structure where anyone can go back and see exactly what a person has written, the idea that I am somehow able to misrepresent you is a rather odd take.
Perhaps "defeatist"?
No.
Sounded more like existential nihilism to me.
Paraphrasing me as saying "they'll win anyway" in regards to fascists (nazis or otherwise) strips what I said of important context.
You literally wrote
until fascism wins anyway
But I did strip the context of neoliberalism because I answered it a sentence later by urging you to get involved to make the world you want.
There's nothing "lucky" about voting, anymore there's lucky in cleaning. You either clean or you'll live in filth. You either defend your rights or you have them eroded and taken away.
The Republicans were not always fascists and the Democrats were not always so neoliberal which means things can change if enough people get involved to change them.
Unions, local elections, political activism etc all matter.
You don't expect perfection, you get involved and you vote in the public transport analogy.
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Yes. Exactly that. Our federal elections have been corrupt since the 1800s. The Republican effort to curtail the Democratic party and erect an autocratic state started in the 1960s (though there were earlier efforts in the 1920s and 1930s).
I get that it sucks that the US is not at all what we were promised it would be, but letting the Republican party destroy the Democratic party is only going to make things way, way worse for the majority of Americans. And civil war and its aftermath is going to take decades (if not over a century) to resolve.
The French Revolution started in 1789. The Third Republic was founded in 1870, between which the guillotines had to be rolled out several times, and Napoleon had to go to war with the rest of Europe. When the two-state system falls in the US, you can expect chaos and bloodshed for the rest of your life, including kids prostituting themselves on the streets for food (what was seen in post-Soviet eastern bloc states after the USSR fell in the early 1990s). It's going to be grisly for anyone who doesn't flee abroad, and for some who do.
As per Bertrand Russell, war doesn't decide who is right, only who is left. And this includes civil war.
Very bleak and demotivating, thank you
I have no interest in motivating revolutionary efforts that will lead to disaster.
The truth of the matter, is we're flying blind when it comes to moving the progress of a society forward: The promise of politicial power is overwhelmingly tempting, like the One Ring. And like the Ring it also lies. Most revolutions that aren't suppressed are followed by a run of short-lived oppressive dictatorships.
Meet the new boss: Same as the old boss.
Let's not do that. The thing is, we dont know how. Our theorists like Marx, Smith and Kropotkin each had only a piece of the elephant, and we don't have enough historical data to show how to prevent those with power from consolidating it into rule by the owning class yet again. Democracies are often formed when everyone in the nation is related to the casualty of a recent war and they're just tired.
I've had fantasies about putting together an ironclad batch of constitutional clauses and guaranteed rights (a thing Napoleon did to rally the people to his imperial claim). But it's difficult to gather a cabal of legal experts, or even create a webclient by which to crowdsource it. I can't even promise that would work.
I can't say I know what the solutions are, but those seeking rallying speeches typically get themselves slaughtered in a doomed revolutionary effort. Suicides and rampage killings continue to rise.
Putting your energy into a mutual aid effort in your neighborhood will make real but local differences. But it takes multiple exponents of such an effort to bring about revolution. Civil war is quicker, easier, more seductive.
That’s the problem, though, isn’t it? Biden is expecting people to vote for him just because he’s not Trump. And the fact of the matter is, if the goal was to defeat Trump, Biden wouldn’t run. So why is it selfish not to vote for Biden, but not selfish for Biden not to run and let another candidate with a much better chance of defeating Trump run on the ballot?
but not selfish for Biden not to run
How is that an argument to not vote against Trump?
This is your argument, tell me if I"m wrong: "I will not vote against Trump because Biden acted selfishly."
To point out the obvious, nobody prevented anyone else from running for president. Several people did and Biden has beaten them all. How can you expect someone to beat Trump who can't beat Biden?
First of all, I never said I wouldn’t vote for Biden. Second, I don’t want Donald Trump either and we have a better chance of not getting him without Biden. So yes, it is selfish of Biden to make the move that increases our chances of Trump. And telling everyone you have to vote Biden when they have seen his actions lead to death and destruction of their families and families’ homes in Palestine isn’t going to work. It’s not Dems vs. Republicans, it’s rich vs. working class. And Biden and Trump only care about the rich.
The point is to vote for him but also maybe not vote for him?
Doesn't seem like that's much of a point to me.
The US is dabbling with fascism from many different angles. GOP is all about US fascism. The Tankies support foreign fascism that's in opposition to the US. Rightwing extremists say Biden is far left. Tankies say Biden is right wing.
Are you so upset over Gaza that you want the same thing to happen to US cities? This is a possible outcome of allowing authoritarians to run your country.
Am I upset that women and children are being murdered? Yes. I guess you’re ssying I’m supposed to be fine with that. Sorry, I can’t be blind to atrocities just because they aren’t happening in my backyard. Seems like you are. You know that you can be against Trump AND murder, right?
Sure it's fine to be upset, but being upset 100% of the time means you're vulnerable to emotional manipulation and become disconnected from reality. Trump supporters also have good reason to be upset about current economic conditions, don't they? But they're upset at the wrong people because they're blasted with emotion non-stop and don't ever think about how things are.
The political leadership of Hamas are billionaires living in luxury in Qatar while their people die. The local leadership in Gaza living in underground bunkers that keep them safe while the people above them die. They use religion to justify their actions. Like all authoritarian regimes they are very good at propaganda to keep their population in line and to gain support from foreigners.
This fascist organization launched an attack on October 7, 2023 where they went into villages and murdered women and children. How upset does that make you? Apparently not that much, which is concerning. The goal of this attack was to start the war you're seeing play out now. During that attack they took hostages to force Israel into a ground campaign. Ground campaigns in a densely populated area is known by everyone to result in the highest amount of civilian casualties. Hamas knew this, it's what they wanted. Because they can use this to create effective propaganda.
The emotions you're feeling is proof of the effectiveness of Hamas's plan. They made this happen to make you sympathetic to them. And because of how effective this has been they will likely do it it again.
In a few decades time when this all happens again, you'll be saying the same things to the younger generation as I'm saying to you now. This cycle won't end until we have a generation that can see they're being manipulated. Unfortunately you're not the generation that will end the cycle of violence. Maybe Generation Z+1 will be the ones that won't fall for the propaganda. If we survive that long.
Are you seriously trying to say that if people are upset that innocent Palestinians are being murdered, they are being manipulated by Hamas? Dude, I come from a Jewish family. I’m pretty sure Jews know a thing or two about systematic extermination. You’d be the person telling Jews that being upset about concentration camps means they’re playing into political hands. What happened to the Jews at the hands of Hamas is terrible, and I wish it hadn’t happened, but just because innocent Israelis were killed doesn’t mean innocent Palestinians should be killed in retaliation. Even if the goal is get Hamas, you don’t do that by attacking areas where innocents are and where innocents will get killed. And you don’t deprive Palestinians of food and water. I just heard yesterday that Palestinians have been reduced to eating grass because the food they have been eating (that is normally given to animals) has run out.
Now, there is absolutely no doubt Trump is a terrible person, and I will be voting for Biden, but I can certainly see why people who have seen their ancestors and families die at hands of Israel, would not automatically want to support the man who is continuing to give the money and weapons being used to do that killing. I hope you never have to go through what the Jews and Palestinians have been through, but I also hope you have some perspective in the future.
I want to be clear that this is a discussion and I am not trying to call you bad person (or anything close to that or of the sort). I just want you and others to understand why people would be hesitant of a Biden vote and why they aren’t supporting Trump just because they are.
Dude are you saying Trump voters don't act against their own self interest because of propaganda? So why would you think your ethnicity makes you less susceptible to propaganda.
Your social media is probably full of "news" items telling you to not vote for Biden because he's an evil demon the same as the MAGA social media feeds. Probably sewing the same distrust of "mainstream media" as their feeds are doing.
I've had discussions with the "genocide joe" types and discussions with the MAGAs. They are the exact same kinds of discussions. Same outrage same distrust of anything that doesn't fit the narrative. Same ignorance, same disregard for self interest thinking it's noble act to make things worse.
Honestly, the Palestinian movement is a violent blood and soil antisemitic movement. They're good at propaganda because it's what fascists do. Even Jews fell for this kind of thing the last time it happened. They only hate the
CosmopolitanZionist Jews, you'll be ok as long as you go along with them, right?When my Grandfather's generation was done with the country that was spouting this kind of shit last time the cities of that country looked a lot like Gaza does now. They put fascists in power, we all hoped that movement would fizzle out but it didn't. The world would be better off if Hamas didn't exist but it got too much outside support to die off on it's own. Maybe this conflict will at least weaken them enough so their River to the Sea movement will die out. Or maybe it will continue because of outside support. Which case this all happens again in another generation.
So tell me do you want this to happen again? Support Hamas and it will. So if you support Hamas, and that results in this happening again, who's the one that's really promoting genocide? It ain't "genocide joe" who's doing everything he can to end it.
Ah but you're too upset to even consider how support for a Palestinian movement that has refused to separate itself from Hamas makes you complicit in genocide. That's an accusation you like to throw at others, and you're too emotional to consider your own actions. And always the point of fascist propaganda. Too emotional to think about the repercussions of your actions.
Ok, well, if you think the Palestinians and Jews are to blame for all this, we have nothing else to discuss. I no longer think you want to have legitimate discussion. Personal advice, be less bigoted the next time you want to discuss this.
What's bigoted? Thinking that Palestinians are people and are therefore responsible for their actions?
And I did mention that Palestinian fascism has a lot of support from the outside. Oil rich assholes, Iran, naive westerners. Lots of outside support which keeps Palestinian leaders corrupt and authoritarian. Which is the major obstacle for Palestinian statehood. Not that most people care about that, it's only maintaining a righteous anger that matters, right? Hamas might've faded from existence if it weren't for this.
See the emotional narratives have gotten you so wound up you don't have any rational arguments anymore. So just default to calling anyone you disagree a bigot and refuse to think about anything that conflicts with your emotions.
Make your own decision: see the facts not the talk. Biden in Europe is considered full right or at least center-right. And we have fascists all over Europe.
Biden in Europe is considered full right or at least center-right.
This is talk, not facts. Yes if you're in a bubble where everyone is talking the same way, it might feel like a fact, but that's all just talk and feelings. In the end all of politics is just talk despite what the ideologues might tell you.
I'm telling you, as a Spaniard, that Biden is not left wing. And the same could tell you any French, German or Italian. Except for the far right nuts.
Yes, you're saying your opinions. Are the opinions of Spaniards somehow more relevant than other people's?
No. But can give you a different POV. And is one that almost all in Europe share, that US politics range from center right to far right. Even US expats share that POV.
It’s funny how the leftists in do the same thing they always do that only works for millionaires work and then get mad at the working class when they don’t vote for them.
Will you please phrase this another way? For some reason I am unable to parse it.
What I mean is, it’s funny how Leftists support millionaires/billionaires and fuck over the working class and then are surprised that people don’t like it. If we had a progressive candidate people would be happier, even if they don’t know it yet. Bernie Sanders tried that and was defeated when the Dems made sure Hillary won despite everyone saying they wouldn’t vote for her. It’s time to stop repeating the mistakes of the past.