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Why is TikTok seen as privacy invading and bad, but Facebook is fine?

I'm not here to claim that Tiktok is completely harmless, or that it's even a good site. I'm sure they absolutely do collect as much personal information as they can, and I'm sure they give it to the Chinese government whenever they ask. But I don't understand how Meta and Facebook are meant to be any better? There's always a lot of hoo-haa going on with politicians promising to ban tiktok, and (at least back on Reddit) everybody's vowing they will never use tiktok because it's such a privacy invasive site. Yet I never see anybody going up against Facebook, at least the average person, but they collect just as much personal info and I'm sure hand it over whenever any government agency in the US asks them to

It kind of feels to me like this is some sort of country thing. China is bad, so they shouldn't have your personal info. But the US is the last bastion of free speech and privacy, so their companies would NEVER dare to invade your privacy, and their government would never abuse their power to get people's personal info

I'm aware Lemmy probably isn't the best place to ask since most people here seem to be deep into open source software and often privacy focused (so I suppose wouldn't use either) but this also feels like the only place on the internet I might actually get an answer that isn't just "TIKTOK BAD". If you refuse to use tiktok but are ok with Facebook - why?

112 comments

  • Real quick --> these discussions tend to spiral off into bad faith arguments and whataboutism, I'm going to try and avoid that

    I think there are a few things that come to mind for me, and I apologize for this being very disorganized

    • Both are bad and privacy invading, I avoid both as much as possible
      • facebook where I am (and likely through north america) is more embedded in how we communicate. Both individually, and with companies/institutions. This isn't a good thing, but it's what has happened.
      • I don't post much or at all on either, and I use the web browser when possible. Unfortunately, I'm forced to use facebook stuff more than I am forced to use tiktok (which I don't think happens at all)
      • Because TikTok is newer, it's also easier to restrict it. I think if Facebook tried to enter today, we'd push it away much harder
    • Is one actually worse? Maybe, but I'll defer to people that know more. I think on the app level, TikTok collected more data (and types of data) than the apps for Facebook products.

    For me, it's less about who is getting the data than what data is collected. Especially because once the data is collected, it won't necessarily stay with the one entity. I wouldn't be surprised if both Facebook and TikTok benefit from the data that the other one collects, making that point somewhat moot

  • TikTok is owned primarily by western investors and it's board is majority American. Usually I would be here to give the contrarian opinion that the government that is most likely to harm you is your own and that the majority of people would be better off with a non-cooperating country having your data. However, TikTok is just as likely to hand over user data to the US as Facebook is. It's the worst of both worlds.

    1. Facebook is old and shown itself more and more shitty over time. TikTok happened to be this way from the start, as it's how users could allow it to be when it launched.
    2. TikTok is viral, no one cares about Facebook outside of Facebook.
    3. Rational and irrational dislike of distant China. Local issues aren't reacted on as much as they are routine.
    4. Both harm to the kids as it's popular with them most and cross-generational confusion between zoomers and older people.
    5. TikTok is not a classic social network with friends, groups, chats, blogs but more of a content platform with it's own distinct format of content, genres, them not being to everyone's taste.

    I don't use neither. Not for security first, but rather because I can't find there something interesting for myself. Not my things.

  • First, Facebook isn't "fine" by any measure - That's what you call a false premise. Tiktok sees more scrutiny generally, initially because of rightful skepticism of a platform beamed into children's brains, with partial ownership by the authoritarian government of it's parent country.

    That initial well-founded distrust, along with things like this early on, "TikTok memo directed censorship of users deemed ugly, overweight, or disabled, and banned users for livestreams that criticized governments" were then perpetuated by the lazy, ignorant blind racism from the American far right because they were tools to hate then by people like trump.

    P.s. Here's that article

  • Personally, I think they're all bad. the US is not nearly as bad as the CCP is, in regards to privacy and what they do with personal information. (the US might wish it had china's capability, though.) the CCP uses digital information to the extent of having an AI that watches everything you do- including CCTV recordings and everywhere you physically go; tracking what doors you use, in a broad surveillance campaign. (frequently, Uyghur Muslims are targets,).

    They also have agents show up to live with you- if they think you're particularly... whatever...

    China also uses the intel gleaned on TikTok to target people of interest; etc, and you're an idiot if you think TikTok's data it gleans on you doesn't go straight to the CCP. It also gets alot more information than you think- including other devices on your network, etc.

    All that said; Meta/Facebook, twitter. Whoever. They're all selling their data to the CCP, too. and to the US. And to everyone else.

    if you care about your data, the only real choice you have is to not use those services. at all.

    • You're a bigger idiot if you think US is not nearly as bad as the CCP. People actively avoid anything that's closely connected to CCP. Chinese products are considered poorly built by default and appsconsidered malware and all the propaganda around makes anyone cautious of getting a "Chinese" phone or anything. US has been caught numerous times with backdoors and NDA contracts with the social media networks.

      Most people can avoid chinese tech companies and products by just looking at their brand names, US tech companies? not so much. Smartphones wouldn't work properly without connecting to Apple or Google networks. Android users can install ROMs but Apple is just damn useless for privacy (unless you swallow their blue pills wholesale).

      Just because China is open about their surveillance network doesn't mean other countries aren't. Anytime US companies are found to be spying, it's "corporate shit" and "greed", or some numbnut would say "capitalism", but things like Government having a closed backdoor to everything, no one fucking bats an eye. Ever. and is swept under the rug. Double standards much?

      Your arguments are just talking points you're fed that make you feel better about yourself. Fuck China and fuck USA. US has been fucking medling with countries worldwide with their surveillance and shaping narratives with social media companies to benefit itself. Going as far as to perpetuate genocide and violence among people, you guys fucking deserve Tiktok.

      • the US actively censors literally everything it's citizens see? (1, 2, 3, 4,)

        The US dissappears it's own citizens if they rock the boat too much? (1, 2, 3)

        Your arguments are just talking points you’re fed that make you feel better about yourself. Fuck China and fuck USA. US has been fucking meddling with countries worldwide with their surveillance and shaping narratives with social media companies to benefit itself. Going as far as to perpetuate genocide and violence among people, you guys fucking deserve Tiktok.

        It's hilarious that I more or less acknowledged that the US is also spying on it's citizens. The distinction is what the US then does about it. It doesn't make random kids dissappear because they likened Xi to Winnie the Poo. It doesn't make kids dissappear for criticizing the CCP, or even calling it's sitting president a mass murderer.

        As for meddling in other people's business. Well, hate to break it to you, the only people not doing that wish they had the capability to do that. And you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. Same goes with global surveillance. Same goes with meddling, too.

        Welcome to the modern world, where there are no heroes. hope Xi remembers to pay you this week. I wouldn't be too loud if he forgets, though.

  • China is the enemy, therefore when they do it it's bad.

  • Tiktok is bad because it's Chineese, Facebook is 'good' because it's American.

    Alas, that's all.

    I used Facebook because everybody I know uses it. My wife and me are the 1st to delete that account, as we hate the constant tracking of Facebook. Alas, Google is even worse, but as Android user we're linked to that. I'm trying to minimize contact there as well, but it's hard with purchased apps and content.

    For some strange reason having your own country or 'friendly' countries and their companies track you is 'good' and when less friendly countries or their companies do that it's 'bad'. When somewhat privacy minded, all tracking is bad.

    When someone tels me they have nothing to hide, I'll ask if they would like a camera in their bathroom or bedroom, as they have nothing to hide. All say that's an unfair comparison, but it shows that there is nobody that has nothing they waht to keep private.

    For me, US companies are even worse then the Chineese ones, as US companies will try to enforce US law and morals upon it's users. (But I don't trust either)

    • For the most part, I 90% agree with your stance. However, you can't take the statement "I have nothing to hide" literally to the extremes. That would be suggesting that the person is okay giving you the passwords for their bank accounts under the guide that they have nothing to hide.

      It's a common colloquial expression which expresses how one accepts the situation as is. I've got nothing to hide doesn't mean that I then consent to a strip search or house search, those are uncomfortable and inconvenient. You can't always apply the same single justification to support multiple separate events, because you need the full context. Imagine "can I borrow a dollar? sure thing, you're my friend" Well whoops, you've now just given your friend complete reign over all your money for as long as the friend title exists

      A more accurate interpretation here is "They're not collecting any information that I'm embarrassed about"

      Sorry, language is messy and oftentimes there are differences between literal and intended meaning. I just wanted to point out why it is indeed, an unfair comparison. You can achieve your point without attacking someone's (as I argue) correct statement when taken in context, since your underlying point still stands that the majority of people have some limit of sharing information that they would not be comfortable with.

      • For the most part, I 90% agree with your stance. However, you can’t take the statement “I have nothing to hide” literally to the extremes. That would be suggesting that the person is okay giving you the passwords for their bank accounts under the guide that they have nothing to hide.

        Nop . that's not what I meant. What I indicate with the camera in the bathroom is, would you trust the government to be able to watch to keep you safe and do a perfect job at keeping your data safe? Over here (Netherlands) it's even illegal for the government to fit camera's on spots where they can look into houses. (those video doorbells are illegal as well and a pest)

        To use your anology, would you be at ease when your banking website is forced to use http instead of https because https is encryption and encryption is bad, so not allowed by your government. When you use encryption, you have something to hide (your banking password) and thus are a criminal. Would you accept that situation, knowing that either de government can collect all your data or a company or even worse, criminals?

        A more accurate interpretation here is “They’re not collecting any information that I’m embarrassed about”

        When they collect 'all data', there is bound to be something you wouldn't want to share freely, say your banking password. (amongst others). People always have something to hide, even as simple as being in the street while picking your nose when a google maps car drives by (let alone kicing that nice neighbour while married).

        Knowing that government/companies/criminals can take/gather information from/about you without telling you exactly what they do with it (even when you trust them enough to keep to their words) is bad.

        When I ask you for your banking password it's your choice to either give it to me as you trust me (bad choice, but your choice). When companies entise you to give them access to all information they can gather (including your banking password) and then dowith it as they like takes away the choice.

        Sorry, language is messy and oftentimes there are differences between literal and intended meaning. I just wanted to point out why it is indeed, an unfair comparison. You can achieve your point without attacking someone’s (as I argue) correct statement when taken in context, since your underlying point still stands that the majority of people have some limit of sharing information that they would not be comfortable with.

        Yep, language is messy (especially when the language used is not your main language), but I use the literal meaning to point out that everybody has something to hide. How they look underneath clothes is for most a pretty private detail they share with a limited group of people. Giving a company/government access to those details are generally accepted as bad, but most don't see data gathering as taking away privacy rights, as long as it's 'for a good cause'. Privacy should never be taken away from everybody because 'the cause is good' or given away easily (and no, neither tiktok or facebook are a good cause).

        Everybody has something to hide, so it's everybody has the right for privacy. That right can be revoked under very specific curcomstances, but only when there is enough cause to suspect criminal behaviour.

  • One other reason that I'm surprised not to have seen anyone has already brought up is the degree of government involvement. There's the perception (whether it's true or not) that a business run in China is necessarily on the lookout for the government's best interests and possibly directly interfered with by the government. The same perception says that's not true in America, where the only time the government is involved is through direct known legislation & regulation, or via espionage operations done against the company's will. There's an absence of fear that, for example, the company will be manipulating its algorithm for the government's gain. (Instead, it's purely manipulated for the company's shareholders' gain, which is oh so much better, right? Right?)

  • That's because all those boomers don't use TikTok so it's easy for them to say that "it's bad and privacy invading". However, when you have to accept that the platform you rely on so much is bad, it's not so easy to say "it's bad and privacy invading".

    • TIL people born before 1985 are all boomers

      • Nop, Wikipedia shows that the term is dependent on the country and/orregion woth for the US being the '40-'50 the period, most ending tha boomer period before the '70s and fance being the only one as late as '73 to end that period.

        That it's highly misused by the last generations as they don't understand the earlier ones. It would be just as bad to call everybody born after '65 milennial.

    • WTF would you rely on tiktok/facebook for something (or anything)?

      I rely on my phone to be able to call somebody (or emergency services) when I need to, I rely on my transport to get me where I need to go and I rely on the grocery stores to provide food (alas, garden is not ig enough to grow it myself)

      Anything on internet is optional, very entertaining and fun, but optional.

  • Because CHINA BAD even though they are an ocean apart from you and can't jail you like your own government.

    • America is not even my country, so yeah, bad and bad, as both are not companies from my country. (and even companies from here would be bad, my data, hands off)

112 comments