2y ago

US's Blinken says no to any Ukraine peace deal that doesn't include total Russian withdrawal

apnews.com Blinken warns Ukraine cease-fire now would result in ‘Potemkin peace,' legitimizing Russian invasion

U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken says the United States and its allies should not support a cease-fire or peace talks to end the war in Ukraine until Kyiv gains strength and can negotiate on its own terms.

“We believe the prerequisite for meaningful diplomacy and real peace is a stronger Ukraine, capable of deterring and defending against any future aggression,” Blinken said in a speech in Finland, which recently became NATO’s newest member and shares a long border with Russia.

113 comments

Bunch of people keep talking about how the US shouldn't broker peace deals and China should. Hypocrisy at its finest.
The fact is, having a third party nation recommendation for peace or no peace is a standard for centuries, and if that nation is a global hegemony with nuclear weapons, then it makes sense.
- People want the war could end, but US won't let it. What hypocrisy?
  
  people want the war to end
  Russia clearly doesn't. In fact they were the ones who started it

Do I understand it correctly, that "total withdrawal" is giving back the regions that agreed to be with Russia, alongside getting the troops back?
- You mean that separatist regions that got installed by Russia and would already have lost without the Russian troops intervention in 2014 - 2015? That regions that have a government of brutal former criminals (that brutally oppressed every opposition)? Yes those too. If the people really want to be part of Russia, they can ask for a fair referendum with international observers after Russia fucked off.
  
  Let's take a look at a few slides from this lecture that Mearsheimer gave back in 2015 to get a bit of background on the subject. Mearsheimer is certainly not pro Russian in any sense, and a proponent of US global hegemony. First, here's the demographic breakdown of Ukraine:
  here's how the election in 2004 went:
  this is the 2010 election:
  As we can clearly see from the voting patterns in both elections, the country is divided exactly across the current line of conflict. Furthermore, a survey conducted in 2015 further shows that there is a sharp division between people of eastern and western Ukraine on which economic bloc they would rather belong to:
  And we can see a few interesting facts about Crimea in a US government study. First thing to note is that it was never part of Ukraine proper. US government referred to it as the Autonomous Republic of Crimea. Second thing to note is that majority of the people in Crimea do not consider themselves Ukrainian, and the biggest demographic considers themselves Russian:
  And finally, here are some facts, as documented by western media, about the regime in Ukraine that you're evidently supporting
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHhGEiwCHZE
  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30414955
  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28329329
  https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/2021-05-04/ty-article/.premium/ukrainian-official-changes-tune-on-unacceptable-march-honoring-ss-unit/0000017f-e0e2-d7b2-a77f-e3e7ee990000
  https://www.ft.com/content/7191ec30-9677-423d-873c-e72b64725c2d
  https://consortiumnews.com/2022/12/29/on-the-influence-of-neo-nazism-in-ukraine/
  https://consortiumnews.com/2022/12/29/evidence-of-us-backed-coup-in-kiev/
  https://gordonhahn.com/2015/05/02/ukraines-neo-fascist-right-sector-claims-responsibility-again-for-2-may-2014-terrorist-pogrom/
  http://www.errc.org/news/anti-roma-pogroms-in-ukraine-on-c14-and-tolerating-terror

It's actually upsetting to read some people defend an illegal war of aggression in this thread. Just practice the golden rule for a change and imagine yourself being in the same situation. What if it was your country being invaded? Would you take up arms to defend your family, your friends, your neighbors? The bombs are dropping everywhere, and you have to hide in basements to prevent their terror attacks from taking away all that you hold dear.
Of course a country being invaded has the right to defend themselves and the right to fight back. The aggressors could end this war immediately but they wont because their leader is an insular autocrat. Isolating himself and giving orders without considering the best for the rest of the world. Devaluing human life from on top of a pedestal. This is the danger what happens when one single individual gains too much power and the rest of the world needs to be unanimously against it regardless of blind idealism.
- I would flee from the front line and I recommend everybody else do the same. Why get involved when states fight over their sphere of influence? Ukraine isn't a state worth giving your life for. US imperial hegemony (a major reason for this conflict) should not be supported. They will abuse any support given to further their own goals and throw you (or anyone) under the bus when convenient.
- Straight up. Israel and Ukraine are under constant attack these days and absolutely not be criticized for defending themselves even if they don't always go about it exactly the right way.
  
  Are you seriously comparing an apartheid state to a country that's a victim of an invasion? Is Israel "defending itself" when it slaughters Palestinian children?

Hard agree with Blinken here.
- honestly, i can't see how any reasonable person wouldn't.
  edit: russia has proven, repeatedly, that they don't honor their agreements. the only way that they won't invade again is if they're kicked out and if Ukraine has a modern military fully capable of kicking russia's ass if it tries again.

Why does the United States get absolutely any say in a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia, there meddling stopped the last peace deals, and this is really none of their buisness. Let Ukraine set there terms and negotiate for themselves.
- While I am at it, The PRC has been trying for months to broker peace and has Russia at the table, why doesn't the US let Ukraine go to the table and negotiate, The United States has no right to be king of the world and has no right to be setting any terms for these talks.
  
  It's very ironic how you are fine with china's involvement but not the US'
- From what I understand, that's the idea. They are just affirming the Ukrainian position and are saying hey, we won't withhold support and force you into a peace agreement where Ukraine would concede land to Russia despite not wanting to
  
  Except that isnt what was said what was said is that the United States will reject any peace treaty that does not include total Russian withdrawal, they are not just giving support in general, or to a point in particular, but dictating a term. This is a conflict that offically the US is not a party to and as such the US should not be making statements like this. Agian in my opinion it should not go farther than "The United States supports Ukraine in their efforrs for peace, and for all reasonable terms they put forward" if they go farther and they wanted to show it in support it would have been "As stated before, The United States suports the Ukrainian position, including the one mentioned by [offical X] on [Day y] that any peace would include total Russian withdrawl" given nither happened, it can only be taken as the US dictating terms for a thing that they have no buisness or right setting terms for

Imperialism is bad even when it's not the USA doing it.
Ukraine absolutely deserves our support in this war.

Ha, the local tankies are starting to find out that they're outnumbered by reddit-fuges. Still, I believe that barring a negotiated peace, the war will continue for many, many years. The alternatives are either Russian withdraw and/or regime change or Ukrainian collapse, and neither seem likely in the near future. Even Kissinger, which is as blood-thirsty as they come, has suggested a negotiated peace, and it's hard to imagine a negotiation that doesn't concede something to Russia. The question isn't a moral one. The deaths will continue to pile up until negotiation begins.
- look, no reasonable person wants war-- but that's the problem: those who started the war and are continuing it aren't being reasonable. And they're not going to negotiate any sort of peace if they don't get what they wanted by stating the war in the first place: a slice of Ukraine. so, also believe there won't be any peace until Russia leaves Ukraine, and that may take years to convince them to do-- at the barrel of a gun, sadly. Possibly a Russian regime change.
  as for the local tankies... i don't know how much of that you read, but when attempts at rational arguments failed, they just resorted to personal attacks and bullying, which is nothing foreign to me. battle-hardened with the most toxic of reddit trolls, it just rolls of my back. :P
  
  Ukraine will at least need to make some sort of compromise over the port at Sevastopol. From what I understand, that's the only port available for Russia's Black Sea fleet. Russia has historically held a naval base there and would likely be unyielding on that point. Forcing Russia to butt out is one thing, but them losing significant amounts of their defense capability is another.
  
  I initially joined lemmy about 2 years ago, and the place was swamped with them. They have their own instance they hide out on, which lemmy.ml federates with but beehaw.org and sopuli.xyz do not. It will be interesting to see how the lemmy landscape evolves as time passes on.

Warmonger. Don't the Ukrainians get a say in whether the US can sacrifice so many people for US goals?

Supporting Ukraine is the only U.S. military action since WW2 that I can truly support. Even our action in response to 9/11 was fucked up.
- Same, its one of the only decisions the US has made that is pretty solidly good.
- This has been a major reality check for me personally. For years I shook my head at the gargantuan US military budget thinking it's ridiculous. Fast forward to February 2022 and I realize it's the US once again cleaning up when Europe shits the bed. Ashamed, thankful and thoroughly convinced we need to spend a whole lot more in defense as well.
  
  Idk about all that. The US has supported Ukraine and I support that. But Europe has stepped up to the plate too. While US refused to provide long range HIMARS, UK provided Storm Shadow. Poland has donated about all it has. Realistically, the US could drastically reduce it's defense spending, provide all the support Ukraine could want, and still maintain the largest military force by a large margin.
- Amazing that you understand that your country has consistently been on the wrong side of history since WW2, but also believe this this is the first time it's not.
  
  What's wrong with helping a country defend itself from invasion by imperial warmongers?
  And to be clear, yes, I am calling Russia imperial warmongers. They have been actively invading neighboring countries for decades to expand themselves. And what is an empire if not a nation built on the conquest of other countries?
  
  Russia was also on the wrong side of history since WW2. When two losers face off, logically one or the other must break their losing streak.
  And as it turns out, the US gets the win. Congratulations.

Wait, I thought Ukraine was a sovereign, independent state. That's what the media been screeching about for over a year. Now it is saying USA is deciding their foreign policy?
Funny that
- how is expressing an opinion equate to "deciding their foreign policy"?
  edit: other than speaking the obvious, of course
  
  Here are some gentlemen "expressing an opinion".
- It's Schrödinger's regime in Ukraine that's both completely independent and does exactly what its western masters tell it to do.

Translation: Blinken says that US wants to drag the war out as long as possible.
- *as long as is necessary. russia can withdraw whenever it likes.
  
  Just like Afghanistan.

113 comments