Car dealers say they can’t sell EVs, tell Biden to slow their rollout

If they can't sell it, then they'll lower prices and people will be able to buy them.
I doubt the profits are so hard to come up with considering the wild CEO pay and record profits everyone's bragging about.
- Yeah lol... Why curb supply to artificially keep prices high? Sounds like a antitrust issue.
  
  We can keep producing mass amounts of EV’s; we’ll just store them all in caves in middle America.
- Just bought an EV from a local dealer. Went in on Saturday because they had a 2 month used listing on their website for about 10k under MSRP. They told me, oh no that sold, but please check out the new cars. I entertained them and told them they'd need to bring down the price 10k to get me to sign because it's simply out of my price range. They also mentioned these things (ioniq 6) are selling extremely quickly and they only have a few on the lot.
  They insisted and played games for a week, with offers OVER msrp, so I let them waste their time. They pushed me to come in, so as I was about to sign, I told them, actually, no. I need an offer 10k under MSRP or I'm leaving. At this point that was a 15k cut. They've now wasted a week of negotiation and suddenly found the used one I originally requested, but it was at their off-site lot.
  We drove over there, and it was a large 5 story parking deckcompletely filled to the top. They even had cars parked in front of cars. They tried one last game and made me wait for 3 hours to get it out.
  All that is to say, let the fuckers bleed. If they can't afford Christmas, maybe they need to learn what the fuck capitalism really means. If they can't afford new years, it's time to make a new resolution and if they can't afford spring break, it's time to find a new job.
  
  That's straight up bait-and-switch! Good on you to hold them to the original advertisement.
  they need to learn what the fuck capitalism really means.
  Eventually, they'll move inventory to other dealerships (and the scrapheap), fire-sale the rest, cover their losses, and make room for new models. Dealers are amazing at colossal inventory stunts like this.

- I've been eyeing an Ioniq 5 for about 18 months now and just checked local pricing again and they haven't budged an inch on pricing (even now with 2024 models being sold with 2023 models left on the lot) nor are they even carrying inventory outside of the most expensive trim packages of Limited AWD. I'm interested in range, so I'm wanting a Limited RWD but they aren't being stocked.
  This article screams "I'm not doing my job and it's all your fault!"
  
  There's a 2008 style crash coming in the credit market for cars. There's a lot of subprime loans and a lot of car companies that got into financing that shouldn't have. Wait til they really get squeezed. Who am I kidding tho, they will just ask for a bail out.
  
  The dealer near me has added an extra 5 grand for market adjustment too.
  
  Meanwhile, up here in Canada I put a down payment on an IONIQ 5 Ultimate Edition (Canadian equivalent of the US ‘Limited’ model) back in early April 2022, and it still hasn’t been ordered, because Hyundai decided to flood the US market while stiffing the Canadian market.
  Hyundai (and other EV makers) are fucking around, and then blaming the market.
  
  Issue is the dealership deals made with the auto manufacturers. Inventory on hand is often times (not including some of that bs that had dealerships marking stuff way over msrp) only set up to make the dealership a few thousand in profits.
  For any major price reductions that are really needed, the auto manufacturers would have to be giving the vehicles to the dealerships for less money.
  In other words, ford will have to drop prices for dealerships to drop prices.
  
  This is bananas to me. The new model is out but last year's model isn't discounted? No wonder nobody likes dar dealers.
- Saw one dealer do that to a Honda civic r then brag they got someone to actually pay it
- Shit dealers (and especially the sales people) tend to not at all be trained on how to sell these cars, and can be openly hostile towards people interested in them. EVs don't make them as much money on service.
  
  They can be trained all day every day, but if they know their profits are lower they'll do anything they can to avoid having to work with EVs.
  
  New car sales people do not give a single fuck about whether the car comes back for service. They get paid for selling cars, full stop. It's possible that management is making ICE car sales commissions higher than EV; that would create an incentive to push ICE.
- They'll also fail to mention that it's the fastest growing new car segment. They may not me moving as many as they want, but they're definitely moving.
- I don't know how it is in the us but here in Germany many (single-brand-)dealers are also licensed mechanics (for that brand) - and since EVs are taking much less repairing than traditional cars they are basically shooting themselves in the foot by selling them
- Yeah, smthg smthg capitalism, smthg smthg free market, amirite?
  
  Don’t forget “too big to fail.”

Straight up don’t give a single fuck what car dealers want. If they could all go out of business I’d be a happier person
- Hi you pulled your car in, nothing is actually wrong with it but we looked at it from a distance and you need new air filters. That will be $375. I can make you a good price, I got it down to $373 because you’re a good money bag, I mean client.
- Oh no! But won't someone think about what the rent-seekers need? They worked hard for years to capture government regulation allowing them to be not only middle-men, but the only middle men allowed! How can they be expected to turn around and do what the government asks? This is a travesty!
- I have hated every single car dealer I have dealt with, even my high school friend, but somehow my Nissan dealer was such a nice guy. He never found anything extra and always gave the straight forward solution, I only worked with him maybe 4 times for the 5 years I owned the car, but my bill was always <$100.

With 30% markups? No, you cannot.
- Car Dealers: But what about my cut for bringing absolutely nothing to the table except being a con-man??

EVs require much less maintenance...dealers make much of their money from... maintenance! So they mark up the sale price to compensate for their lost revenue.
The solution is selling cars without dealerships, but our helpful state legislatures have made that illegal in many states.
- And you need a safe place to charge it. Like a garage. I can't afford a house so why would I buy a Nissan leaf (any cheap ev)? I can't just run an extention cord out an open window. I also can't just leave a wireless ground pad charger plugged in unattended outside. It's all linked, nothing happens in a bubble.
  
  I don’t know about other chargers but my Tesla charger is designed for outside use and can be configured to only allow my car to charge
  
  I can’t just run an extention cord out an open window.
  This is exactly what my neighbor does in his apartment.
  But he has a driveway, so it's not like he's running it over the sidewalk or anything.
  
  I don't think this is what you meant, but you can charge an EV using a conventional wall outlet.They even have adapters that will allow you to plug it into a 240v outlet (like for a dryer or oven). I'm not saying this makes them more accessible, I still think the upfront cost of owning an EV is too high, but it is possible.,
  
  With decent range, you can charge once or twice a week at a fast charger (while doing groceries or posting video games) or there are public chargers every couple of blocks. No need for a home charger (though it's definitely more convenient).
  
  Other wires come in and out of your house. It's not hard to drill a hole and insulate it.
  
  Why can't you run an extension cord out an open window? Do u not have windows or something

Maybe roll out some models people can afford? It's all SUVs that start around $45k, but they built only a few of those base models. The ones actually available are premium trims that go for $65k and might peak around $100k. They were able to sell out for 6 months, and then that market was saturated. Now they stand around asking why nobody buys their cars.
- Also maybe don't make me buy a car through a dealership. Why can't I just order and car and it gets delivered to my house instead of making me pick it up from a dealer that gets to charge whatever they want for being a middle man on top of the cars already being too expensive.
  Side note and probably hot take but I think if manufacturers were serious they would be rushing to phase out most of their combustion vehicles. If people want a new car it's going to be electric and if they don't want EV then they can find a nice used car and pay a premium for gas.
  
  Laws have to change for direct sales of cars, mostly at the state level. Dealership owners also happen to be big donors to state elected officials.
  
  Dealerships in the US are a cartel backed by the government. Multiple states have laws banning direct sales - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes
  
  I would like an electric car next, but I live in an apartment where I couldn't charge it.
- Oh man I would love an affordable Honda e in North America. I've seen them in Europe. What a nice little car.
  
  Move to Europe! And get free medicine as a bonus.
- Huh? There are a ton of small EVs that are much cheaper than that. The Nissan Leaf, for example.
  
  I think a lot of dealerships in the US won't have Nissan Leafs since they are too cheap and therefore, the profit margin is thinner.
  If they had space for 500 cars that they want to sell over a few months, and they were all going to be EVs, they'd want all 500 spaces to be Audi e-trons, Mercedes EQS' and Cadillac Lyrics, because those cars are worth more. Thing is now, people don't want to pay that much for an electric if they are on the fence about trusting the tech or getting used to charging etc. So there's a sales slump. Dealers are sitting on a ton of mid to high end and are looking to blame anyone but themselves for the slowdown in sales.
  Just my thoughts on the situation anyway.
  
  Nissan leaf, Chevy bolt (which won't be sold next year) and...??? Everything else is at least 35k starting.
  
  Nissan Leaf is 41k MSRP in Canada, I've never paid over 14k for a vehicle. Willing to go in to 20s for an EV because of the gas savings though.
  I had saved for an EV for my last vehicle purchase but then the pandemic hit and I started working from home, was driving very little, and I instead used that money to improve the efficiency of my home and upgrade the furnace to heat pump, replace some windows, etc. The amount of ghg's offset just from not using propane to heat my home vastly outweighs the amount I'd offset with an electric vehicle. I think people need to think about what makes sense for them, an EV is a luxury purchase, but if you're lucky enough to own a home then there may be better uses for that money.
  So instead of a nice 50k EV I bought a Fit off someone for 8k, then I bought a $900 shitbox Fit for parts. Costs $70/mo in insurance and I put about the same in gas per month. I will likely improve my home's efficiency further if driving habits remain infrequent rather than buy a product like a car.
  
  I'm holding out for a proper hot hatch. Something like a VW Golf or Mazda3. Leaf is a bit too small.

Well, maybe if the price of cars wasn't so fucking high, they'd be able to sell more of them. But nope, corps gotta get those record profits in, while underpaying every single [non-executive] worker.
- Seems telling that they stated they're having 100-200% employee turnover. Those are insane numbers.
  
  But are they "we're going to run out of workers" bad?

I don’t see any problem with removig car dealers. Just phase out of existence no one will miss them.
- What about Rocktober savings, and flailing tube person vendors?
  
  They can diversify into Inflatable flailing squid vendors!
- Civil liability. You cannot sue in state court without personal jurisdiction over the maker, you know, in case they make a car with a fuel tank that explodes everytime you tap the fender or something. However, if they have a physical business footprint in the state, it's fair to sue them there.
  It would be the end of auto recalls, and soon after the end of auto safety in general, because the makers would force their cases into whatever singular federal court that they pick and just whittle away the law of product liability one case at a time, sort of like how Republicans file all their challenges to federal immigration laws in Brownsville, Texas. Elon Musk would love that.
  E: I see we're just downvoting things we don't understand this morning because we don't like car dealers. That's discouraging. I'm encouraged by a 2021 Supreme Court case, Ford Motor Co. v. Montana that seems to have returned some sanity to personal jurisdiction in product liability cases. Still, a physical presence in the forum state, even if it's by an independent dealership (not a requirement in all states)--which stands in the shoes of the maker due to its equitable and contractual privity--is the lodestar of personal jurisdiction. Without strong long-arm jurisdiction, regular people are further doomed to the recklessness and wilfull disregard by which manufacturers will sell products in order to maximize profit.
  
  Dealerships aren't owned by car companies.
  
  Can’t this be solved by updating requirements to allow vehicle sales?
  
  You're saying that a customer can't sue companies that don't have a physical presence in their state, but because they sell their product though an unrelated third party I can sue them? I'm not a lawyer but that sounds like bullshit.
  The real reason for the continued existence of car dealerships is lobbyist money. The NADA is very politically spendy to maintain their members' legally required middleman status. And it's bullshit. I can buy a laptop directly from Apple. I can buy a bicycle directly from Cannondale. I legally CANNOT buy a truck directly from Ford. I can configure it etc online but the order is then sent to a local dealership for processing and they can add whatever "fuck you because we can" fees they want.

Give me a solid car with an electric motor, but all old-school buttons and knobs in the cabin instead of a touchscreen that will be out of date in 5 years and cost 10k to replace if the kids get their grimy hands on it.
- My ideal electric car is basically an 85 GTI with an electric motor, but they’re all SUVs
  
  Yeah, I'm disappointed that the evs that are actually so simple are micro cars with an in-town-only top speed and they're only available in Europe.
  Closest thing in the US is a Nissan Leaf with a battery upgrade.
  
  And let me rent an extra battery pack for long trips. I only need 40 miles day-to-day, but I gotta go 300 for Christmas.
- You know there are absolutely zero controls on privacy for Tesla telemetry data. It’s wild to me that a car that is really quite a bit simpler than an ICE car is required to be perpetually online. That said, I saw there’s a company trying to offer electric retrofits for ICE vehicles, primarily classic cars, but that’s likely to be closest to what you want.
  
  You got a link or company name? That sounds very interesting for classic cars.
  
  It’s wild to me that a car that is really quite a bit simpler than an ICE car is required to be perpetually online.
  Well it would be wild if it was true. Car drives just fine without an internet connection.
  there are absolutely zero controls on privacy for Tesla telemetry data
  Another wild claim, what is it based on I wonder?
- I just had my screen replaced because the L in LCD started oozing all over. It was $2200 which didn't include the radio that cost an extra $500. So, not 10k, but not cheap either. On the plus side, outside of New tires, that's the only thing I've done to the car in 8 years.

How about people pay attention to local elections? The reason we are not seeing funding for EV infrastructure is most small towns can be bought by the local dealership family who would rather see continued profits from ICE vehicle maintenance and not investments into EV infrastructure, then it conviently sides with this bullshit narrative of nothing can be sold and we have no infrastructure so give up on EVs.

Henry Ford designed the Model T to be a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person. Volkswagon designed the Beetle to be a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person.
The first car company to design an EV that's a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person will sell lots of them. Profit per car may be lower but perhaps we need to set the need for maximum profits aside on this particular issue?
My raises aren't even CLOSE to keeping up with inflation. Rather hard to splurge on a fancy EV with tons of high-tech nice-to-have features that are just going to break anyway. All I need to do is to get from point A to point B and have AC, heat and a half-decent stereo system.
- set maximum profits aside
  Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
- He'd be rolling in his grave if he saw the clickwrap agreements they have to get in a modern car now. Can't start the ignition without sharing your personal data with the car maker and 799 of its "partners."
  
  Henry Ford? I think he'd be more likely to be impressed and jealous. He made an affordable car because no one had thought of selling the ability to buy a car in addition to the car itself in his time.
  
  Tangentially related, there's a supermarket chain in my country that requires you to hand over your personal details to even apply for a job. The rough wording is something like: 'all your personal information in perpitutity but only internally and with people we do business with.' Except since selling my personal info would be a business transaction that clause includes potentially every human being on the planet.
  
  Rolling in his grave in excitement you mean?
- I'm putting money on Toyota and their Panasonic batteries to build something like a Corolla EV for $25k USD 400 mile range.
  Infrastructure is going to have to keep up too. Unless you are in a progressive/new/expensive apartment/neighborhood has reliable access to chargers that's going to have to change before you can start selling EVs to lower and lower middle class. Right now they only make sense of you have a garage to park in.
  
  Toyota is a bad bet when it comes to EVs.
  They clearly have no interest in selling them.
  
  Toyota has been claiming that since 2010. They are no closer to a "solid state battery" that they have been raving about for the last 13 years. They don't even sell electric cars in Japan!
  Toyota is widely considered to be the furthest behind the technology curve of all global car manufacturers, aside from maybe Lada.
  
  Also power generation capacity needs to increase for everyone to drive EVs. Just think of all the power that is currently handled by burning gas in personal power plants.
  Though some of that will be mitigated by less need to refine gas and transport it to every gas station.
- Out of curiosity, how much would it cost for you to consider an EV affordable for the everyday person?
  The Chevy Bolt has been around for years and can be purchased new for less than $30k. Same with the Nissan Leaf. That's a pretty attainable number for a lot of working adults, and that's assuming you buy brand new. Multiple 2020 Bolts are available near me for around $20k. I'm seeing Bolts that might be another year or two older as low as $15k
  I'd argue that price isn't the thing keeping people away from EVs. You can buy a relatively inexpensive EV if you want to.
  
  I'd argue that price isn’t the thing keeping people away from EVs. You can buy a relatively inexpensive EV if you want to.
  Not him and it may not be the only thing, but it's a main thing.
  30k is a lot for a new car, and most EVs I've seen start at 30k.
  You can buy a used ICE car you can get years out of for less than 10k. Financially savvy people know that the savings in gas will take years to recoup depending upon how often you drive the car.
  Then there's depreciation because a used EV with limited range is practically worthless, replacing a battery in one can run up to 15k, and Chevys in general don't hold their value.
  Now is price the only thing? No. I personally also am a little hesitant to buy one and the hidden costs of having to upgrade my electrical in the garage in order to effectively charge it, and I suspect others have similar concerns.
  All that said my next vehicle will likely be an EV, and I really hope Honda gets its act together because if not I'll end up having to go with someone else.
  
  For comparison, Chinese companies sell EVs like hot cakes in Asia for <$15K. They sell it even cheaper in the mainland.
  
  $15,000 is a cheap affordable price.
- 😡🤬 How dare you suggest we buy Chinese electric vehicles
- There's an Australian company targeting that market, although AFAICT is vapourware so far, and imo a little too low performance for the price
  https://ace-ev.com.au/

Bullshit. These dealers don't want to sell EVs because they can't bait you into a sales pitch 4 times a year with free oil changes.

Car dealers are just a legal & institutionalized cartel.

Maybe it’s because cars suck now: filled with spyware, massively complex systems that aren’t better at doing car things than similar systems in the 90s, and with a price tag that considers this garbage as worth something to the consumer.
- I sincerely wish that were the case. The proliferation of Ring doorbells, Alexa speakers, and overall lack of tech literacy really hampers any signs of general outcry. Our collective screech barely registers as a whimper in the grand scheme.
  
  I mean that’s my disappointment with the new Tacoma that’s coming out soon. It’s great that they have a hybrid now, but it’s full of electronic crap now that used to be mostly isolated to certain components.
  Now the entire gauge cluster is a screen, it’s sad.
  I was legitimately going to buy a brand new one in the next year or two when I’m back in the US, and I’ve never bought a new car. now I guess I have to get a 2023 model or earlier. I bet any of the 2016-2023 generation lasts longer than the 2023-2030ish generation.
  Honestly I don’t even like trucks but the biggest pull for me was that the Tacoma was still pretty old school for a new vehicle, and that it could go anywhere kinda rough.
  
  There was another thread here on Lemmy where I talked about how my parents installed a wired intercom in our house so they wouldn't have to yell at me when they wanted something and someone replied that they just use Alexa to do that and I wanted to hit my forehead on my keyboard.
- The same thing happens in ICE vehicles. The issue here is that they marked them up an insane amount, refuse to learn about them, and actively discourage people from buying them.
- Spoiler alert: cars have always sucked.
  Inefficient drain of public and private money. Demand better public transportation.

Fascinating, have they tried sucking less?
- No.

If they can’t sell them then let companies sell without a dealership! Sorry your scammy business isn’t working anymore either clean your nose or get out

When GM killed the Bolt, I tried to buy one at two different dealerships near me. One wanted a $10k premium over MSRP and the other wanted $8k.
They also both had a non-negotiable "security" etching added and wheel protection whatever that I had to pay for.
It isn't that I didn't want one, it's that your dealerships fucked it up.
Honestly, may have settled for MSRP, but they wouldn't budge. Fuck off.
- There are tons of used bolts at the electric car dealership near me, I think they start around $15 or $16k.

The infrastructure isn't there. I live in an apartment (and likely will for the foreseeable future), and there are no chargers here.
The option of a (practical) electric car does not exist for a sizeable portion of the country. The fact that they're really expensive is actually secondary considering they're just a non-starter without the infrastructure.
- Even worse, my former apartment complex had EV chargers that you paid for at 8x the rate of electricity making it more expensive than gas. There were no other options to charge your car. But when I locked in my lease all they advertised was that they had EV chargers. Not the credit card required or price.
- I think this is ignoring the fact that the average americans daily milage is so little (around 30 miles)that an electric car can be topped up off a Level 1 charger. Even more if you can get a level 2 charger.
  So for most americans average driving, an electric car would be a boon, even if no independent in the wild infrastructure/charging facilities existed.
  
  OK, but if you live in an apartment, where do you plug in that level 1 charger?
  
  TBH if your daily mileage is only 30 or so miles, then you can do all of that on an electric bike.
  
  I replaced 90% of my driving with an electric golf cart
- And you think this was an accident? Car companies have been stalling every charging station they can. This is why Tesla went on their own.
  
  Oh I don't doubt there is a lot of dirty pool involved. Tesla's hands are nowhere near clean either. But it doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the day, shit's not anywhere near ready.
- This is why I have a hybrid and not an EV.
- This isn't an unsolvable problem though given demand.
  Assuming you're in an appartment with dedicated parking, it's not crazy difficult or expensive to install some lvl 2 chargers, the real blocker here is demand, if residents aren't demanding it the building isn't going to supply it.
  If you're stuck with street parking, you're right, your use case isn't best suited for EVs right now. But this case also isn't a huge portion of vehicle owners, so it doesn't seem like justification to stop rollout.
  
  Ignorant on the levels, but I thought I read it WAS crazy to install all that infrastructure. Gas stations apparently struggle to get it done.
  Maybe I read about the next level
  
  I'd be curious to see real stats about how many folks in the US have a car and any practical access to a charger, even if somehow we convinced landlords everywhere to install chargers or the govt footed that bill entirely. I suspect it isn't the minority you think given the current housing situation in the country.
  Even so, we seem agreed that a massive infrastructure improvement would be needed to make this at all practical. It looks a lot like pie in the sky to me.
  Of course the elephant in the room is that the battery technology is the more overarching issue. I don't need a gas station in my parking lot because it takes me about 3 minutes to fill the car with gas. If it took 3 minutes to charge an electric car, they would be closer to parity. Currently they are far, far away.
  Is it possible to get around some of that issue by changing tactics / planning ahead for longer trips and trying to secure a full charge by then? Possibly, but not practically. I'd also argue that technologies that ask people to change established behavior without benefit tend to fail (and there is no direct benefit to the consumer with an electric car).
- 65.8% of Americans own their house. EV sales rates aren't anywhere near that. Lack of being able to charge at home is not the primary issue.
  
  I'd be curious to see how many apartment dwellers are buying brand new vehicles as well. I suspect it's at a rate lower than home owners.
  
  While your larger point is valid, it's missing some important context. I haven't seen the data, but I suspect that it says 65% own (vs renting) their primary residence, not that 65% own a single family house suitable for home charging. This figure would include houses with street parking only, off-street parking unsuitable for charging (e.g. carport, or a detached garage without electricity), and critically, condos. Condos often have the exact same restrictions as apartments, even if you own the living space. In the opposite direction, it doesn't count the rented homes where you could charge.
  Now, all of that being said, you are correct that it's not the only (or perhaps even the biggest) obstacle to moving entirely to EVs. Countless gas vehicles are sold daily to people that could absolutely charge at home. But it does freeze out a large market segment, whom I suspect are more interested in EVs in the first place.
- You don't need to have chargers on site. You just need charging locations that are fast enough. Teslas already charge from empty to almost full in about 15 mins.
  
  It's 0 to 200 miles in 15 minutes in ideal conditions. Really good, but no reason to set unreasonable expectations.
  In my experience, it's closer to 45 minutes to go from 15-20% to 90% in my Model 3. The supercharger's fastest charge is when the battery is less than half full. After that, it slows down to protect the life of the battery pack. If all you need is enough charge to get home to your own charger, it's entirely possible that you can be in and out in 10-15 minutes.

- https://electrek.co/2023/11/29/car-dealers-falsely-claim-voice-customers-push-slower-electric-car-adoption/
  However, what those dealers are leaving out of their argument is that BEVs are not the only vehicles sitting unsold on their lots.
  In fact, new-vehicle inventory is at a two-year high, according to Cox Automotive research.
  As of the start of November, new-vehicle inventory volume in the US was sitting at a record 2.4 million units. It is safe to say that those are mostly gasoline-powered vehicles since the inventory level is currently higher than the number of EVs that the US will produce all year.
  The truth is that the current interest rates have affected all automotive sales, EVs or otherwise.
  It’s true some of those people who placed reservations for EVs last year are reconsidering their purchases now, as highlighted by the >group of dealers, but that’s not because they are not interested in EVs anymore. It’s because they can’t afford the several hundred >dollars more for the monthly payments now, thanks to high interest rates.
  Some wont Stock them https://electrek.co/2023/05/09/us-car-dealers-evs/
- I legitimately want to know the source for "they can sell them, they just don't want to order what people want to buy."

I loved my Volt... Charged overnight in a normal 110 outlet got me the 43 miles to work and back (after about year 5, not quite the whole way) but I could still decide to go on a 600 mile road trip spur of the moment. Had to give up the 2014 in 2023 when a full charge wouldn't go 20 miles. ☹️
There is no PHEV comparable now, though! Made the switch back to full ICE and I hate it.
- I have a 2017 bolt EV - bought used, not one that is advertised as having great mileage even in 2017. I routinely take it 400-500mi plus drives with one or maybe two charge stops for vacation and family trips. Middle of ME to the southern tip of NJ. My home is somewhere in the middle.
  Charged off my 110 outlet since I got to car (about 4 years) up to last month Oct 2023 when I got a 220v outlet installed as part of another project. One charge was enough for the week. Occasionally I'd plug in at work or at a friends. Worst case actually pay $5-9 for a DC quick charge if I know I'm doing a long drive. All that is way easier if you just have a place to plug in consistently at home.
  I don't get the negativity most people have twords EVs. Everyone is astounded when I say I just plug it into the wall and have to plan longer trips slightly more, like that's not news anymore.
  And there's a bunch more DC chargers than when I first started driving an EV - so it's wayyy easier for new folks to adopt.
- It sounds like you could've taken that car back for a warranty claim.... depending on your state it should be able to do about 30 miles after either 8 or 15 years, and your was doing less than 20 at 9 years... I assume you were in an eight year state?
  Having said that, draining the battery fully every day will absolutely kill it. It's not good for the battery to be empty that often... an EV with a 300 mile range and the same driving pattern could probably go well over a million miles on the original battery. That's far longer than the typical life of a modern ICE engine (unless its an engine specifically intended for commercial fleets - those last longer).
  Of course, a battery that can do 300 miles is very expensive.
  
  This is the real reason I think high mileage batteries are important... I think most people don't need 300 miles, but a battery that can do that can also be charged to 60% or 80% and charged before going below 20%, which should dramatically improve its life (saving the full capacity for the once in a while longer trips)
- The Prius Prime isn't too different, in that it's also a compact PHEV although the battery range is a bit shorter.
- Hyundai Ioniq PHEV is I would say even better.
- That's the problem. They're basically totaled once the battery is worn out.
  
  Well Ive not quite made it to 100000mi on the odometer. It's likely I'll be able to take it to 200000 with the same sort of range I have now... So that's about 10-12 years of life for me without a worry. Maybe it goes more, maybe I get in an accident before 2029 (10years of use and I'll be around 150000mi or less).
  Ive heard people are scared of the batteries. But that fear doesn't match what I've experienced. I had a recall on mine that was not big deal. it's really not as concerning as it's made out to be. I'm mostly hoping there's a better recycling system in place when I do actually need a new battery, just show I know the old one is taken care of properly. But likely the rest of the car will wear out first.
  Ps I don't drive much during the week, longer weekend drives, and then long drives a few times a year.
  
  I mean... Same with a gas engine for most cars. And the batteries are expected to last about as long as a gas engine.
  
  That person had a PHEV (2014 Chevy Volt)... It was not totalled, they can still drive it on gas, and the battery is only 16.5kwh, so if you wanted to replace it (though you don't need to), its only like $5k.
  
  So true! ☹️

I would like to buy an electric car but I will not because;
I don't have a garage.
I live in a very wintery climate and don't trust the battery to take it/don't want to heat a battery
The closest chargers are at least 50 km away in other towns
My house has 60 amp service (upgrading that is on the todo list, but it's a long list)
I don't trust the battery to last longer than the life of the lease
- Most of those fears aren't completely valid anymore.
  You can park it outside.
  winter gets you less mileage but not the end of the world, some of the fastest growing EV markets are cold countries.
  You might be surprised, a lot of grocery stores and even workplaces have some basic charging capabilities. Plus you can charge at home.
  If you have an electric dryer you can charge your car overnight, just don't do both together.
  Batteries will outlast any lease, if you're looking to get 10-15 years out of a car that would be understandable, but if you're leasing it won't be a problem.
  
  I don't think it's unreasonable to expect 10+ years or more out of a car without shelling out a large sum of money for a battery swap. This is probably my only concern. Repairability and the cost of those repairs.
  
  If you have street parking in a urban area there's a good chance you can't get a outlet connected to your car without running a extension cord from your window, across a sidewalk, and then to the port.
  
  I live in a small town in a rural area. There is one charger in my town, but it's at the county building and is for county employees. There are chargers at grocery stores, but those are 50kms away.
  My house still has a fuse box, I don't have any available holes. The whole system needs changed and I will, but that's $10k and that's not a very exciting purchase.
  I guess I didn't mean lease, I meant financing. I definitely hope to have a vehicle at least 7 years. I just upgraded my paid off corolla because we needed all wheel drive vehicle for our winters here. Otherwise I'd have kept it till it died in 20 years (corolla joke). The electric car would have to be comparable to that and I'm not sold that they will be. We bought one of the few cars available to us without a multi month wait.
  I'm sure many of my fears are unjustified, but I require further evidence. I'm not an early adopter type.
  
  Why is everybody so erect for EVs? They save you gas and some maintenance, but that's about it. They increase tire wear for sure, and weigh a heck of a lot more which wears the roads down quicker (roads wear with the cube of weight). They use less gasoline at the expanse of the poor third-world countries which front the environmental cost of mining and battery production, not to mention their archaic worker's rights.
  In 20 years, we'll realize that EVs were probably about as bad as gasoline vehicles--what we should be focusing on is public transportation and updated city design to reduce our need to travel in the first place.
  Sure, a split of electric and gasoline vehicles is beneficial, but they're not the environmental panacea they're being pushed as. So please keep the whole picture in mind when you're telling people to suffer and sacrifice to give up a cheap, convenient gasoline vehicle.
- I charge my car off of a regular outlet outside in a very cold climate, and charging like that will actually likely make the battery last quite a while. The only way to find out for sure is to wait, but it has been 4 years and the battery hasn't lost any capacity. My car also has a 320 km range, so even in your scenario, if you charged 50km away and came home, you'd still have 270km of range.
  I think you may have given too much weight to FUD about EVs from companies that would like to see them fail. I've seen a lot of concerns posted online that just don't practically matter, once you actually try it. There's also some really nice minor things about owning an EV, like not having to breathe in toxic fumes when walking around the car. Especially nice if you have kids that are right at the level of the tailpipe.
  It is also fine to wait a bit, of course. In my area chargers are springing up in lots of places, and I think we're not far off from a tipping point away from ICE cars, which will spread even to rural areas pretty quickly when gas stations start becoming unprofitable.
  
  Good to hear. I fully expect our next car to be electric. Funny enough, the only gas station in my town just announced it was closing this year (the tanks are outdated and the company isn't replacing them). Perhaps I made the wrong decision buying another ICE vehicle. Won't be the first time I was wrong.
- Good news! I've got information relevant to you. I grew up in a locale that would drop below 0F for most of the winter. It was NORMAL to get an oil heater and plug it into your 110v 15amp outlet outside.
  Well with EV's you get that same cable, and plug it in and it accomplishes basically the same goal but for the battery instead of the oil. Even better it trickles "fuel" into your "tank" over night.
  Or if you splash out dolla bills, you can get a dryer plug installed (240v 50amp) which fully charges your EV in a couple hours and keeps it nice and warm all night.
  Everything else is the same, you put snow tires on it, drive to the slopes, skii all day, drive home....one difference though, its heat is available within seconds unlike my old car which took 10+ minutes in subzero temps to heat up and blow warm air. Heck, my EV has heated wiper fluid. That's pretty cool.
  oh... and here's some extra cool parts.... if you do the Airbnb thing somwhere, your "fuel" is included. Just plug it in to their 110v outside outlet. When driving back down the slopes, you know what it does? It CHARGES THE CAR! You get free "fuel", just for driving back down the hill.
  In all seriousness, a couple road trips with mine, in both 100+F and below 32F, I found out that all of those things don't matter. Yes winter tires wreck the efficiency, yes cold wrecks the efficiency, but it's still well over 200+ miles. All the extra convenience is so nice, that you really don't want to go back.
  One example, I drove the same route to the beach at different times, one in the winter, I got there with 31% battery remaining. The same trip in the summer I had 55% batter remaining. So, like 1/3rd a tank of gas left, or half a tank of gas. Both are FIIIIINE. Know what I didn't do? Go to the gas station. I just plugged it in to the slow ass 110 wall outlet since... I'm at the beach for the weekend, in an airbnb... I don't know how long it took, because it was charged when I was ready to leave. Honestly, how do people not see how convenient this is?
  Battery life is pretty widely available for Tesla's at least since they've been around for over a decade now. And like any car, it depends on how the owner drove it and maintained it. Some last forever, some are trash within years.
  
  It's not a oil heater, it's a block heater, it heats the prestone.
- Most ev's dont charge with more than 7 kwh and habe active battery themp controll.
  Dont worry your phone is not blowing up in under 3 years and those batterys get mistreatet.
  I also highly recomend lobing your employer for a charger at the workplace.
  
  My boss is a total asshole. I'm self employed.
- Block heaters are a thing for decades and no one worries about needing to keep the oil warm. Don't see how warming a battery is any different.
  
  I don't use a block heater. I don't have a heated driveway. I don't have heaters on my eaves. I don't heat a bird bath. I don't have exterior flood lights. If I can help it I don't run heaters outside where I am not. I said in the OP I don't like the thought of throwing electricity into the wind.
- You must not be familiar with North American power systems. I would bet the op had single phase service providing 220 or 240 volt service. 60 amp service is outdated, 100 amp is basically the minimum and 200 amp is common.
  
  The guy who replied is correct. My house was built in the 50's it was upgraded from 30amp service and the aluminum wire was replaced with a "state of the art" 60amp fuse panel and paper wrapped wire at some point. Not that much of an upgrade. To use large motors at home you put a penny under the fuse /s. I also don't have any space left in the panel so.....
  I misspoke saying lease, I meant finance. I like to keep things as long as possible.
- The closest chargers are at least 50 km away in other towns
  Most people would never use a charger only 50km to their homes, since they charge it overnight at home. Most EV owners only use public chargers a handful of times a year, actually.
  
  What?
  
  How will it be fully charged at home in the morning if the last time I charged it was a minimum of 50kms away?

I want and have wanted an EV since 2013.....can't afford one. So to be clear, it's not a matter of wanting, it's a matter of making an affordable one.
- You could drive from New York to la in a model three with about twelve 30 minute stops. Given that it's a multi day drive, you can even fold a charge or two into overnight parking. While that is more than a gas car, it's not horrible.
  New York to Miami is about six stops. I would have to stop around the same amount of times in my relatively fuel efficient ice (30 mpg), though (some) of the stops would be significantly shorter.
- BYD have made great strides in that area. good, cheap EVs.
  
  $32,000 minimum is not even close to being cheap

Supply and demand, right? Surely they'll get cheaper, right?
- Nah, dealerships don't actually want to sell EVs because they make most of their money with maintenance, and with an EV there's basically barely any.
  
  Exactly. I've loved mine, only maintenance has been updates for the software, and occasional tire rotations.

Car dealers don't want to sell EVs, it's a lot more work for them
They can sell an ICE vehicle within an hour of a customer showing up on the lot.
EVs can take multiple days and sit downs to try and sell because people have questions since it's new and they want to understand the details before purchasing.
That means less commission, so salesmen try to avoid selling people EVs over ICE vehicles.
- Also less money on repairs. ICE are in the dealership shop ten times as much.
- Dealers actively steer customers away from EVs because they are low maintenance.

I would have bought a plug in electric, but my apartment didn't like the idea of me throwing extension cords out my second story window.
- No one expects they should be able to install a gas station in their backyard to buy an ICE vehicle. The issue is infrastructure.
- Even with an outlet who wants to slow charge a plug-in EV? The infrastructure isn't there and the cars are too expensive.
  
  Slow charge is probably fine for a lot of folks. If you have a 240 mile battery range, travel 30 miles in a day and charge 80 miles overnight, you are at full charge from 0 in about 5 days.
  No plug at all though means you don't charge at all, and commercial fast charging isn't that much cheaper than gas.
  
  They should make batteries that swap out completely so you can load a fully charged one in in a few seconds and let your old one charge while you're off driving somewhere else. Or you just exchange the battery permanently like with some propane tanks.
  
  Most people who have an EV now are slow charging at home daily. And seldom need to use a public charger for their daily driving because of that daily overnight slow charging.

Dealers are waiting to see it the country becomes a full on fascist, road warrior, shit-hole country or continue on a path to a modern first world democracy.

There's a huge wave of anti ev propaganda coming out. Beware.
- but anti-EV is kinda pro enviromental in this case, since we shouldn't be pushing EVs on everyone, we should be pushing for an excellent public transportation network.
  
  We can do both.
  
  Individuals can choose to drive an EV. They generally can't choose to upgrade public transit to serve more people.

You're not gonna sell shit with jacked up sky high prices, even more so in a time of high interest rates. We see your lots are full of unsold cars, both ICE and EV, so maybe it's time to bring prices back down to Earth.
We really ought to change the laws to allow for direct-to-consumer car sales. Dealerships are scummy motherfuckers who are perfectly happy to be a middleman and rip people off.

Gotta push the EV infrastructure harder. No good pushing lots of EV cars when the infrastructure isn’t there to support them. Can’t charge at work. Can’t charge at your apartment complex. No charge at the shopping areas. Etc. Other than the high initial cost, I’d suggest that the inconvenience and irritation of trying to locate charging along with range limits is a major factor in people not wanting EV.
- This is the #1 reason I won't be able to get an EV any time soon. We live in a townhouse, and while the HOA gracefully 'allows' us to install chargers (because its illegal for them not to allow it), the way the rules are set up it's practically impossible to actually install one.
  For example, here's our bylaws regarding EV chargers:
  All Charging stations require approval – The application should discuss where the charging station will be mounted, the type of post used to mount it, and, in the townhouses, the path that the charging station wiring will use to get to the common ground. The townhouse owner is also advised that the installation of a charging station on HOA common ground requires a legal agreement between the HOA and the homeowner regarding maintenance and liability of the charging station.
  Chargers of 120V (Level 1) or 240V (Level 2) are allowed. It should be noted that while it is possible to use a 240V extension and there are some 240V extensions sold as charging cables, at this time, the use of such extensions is illegal in Maryland and will not be approved in an application. All 240V outlet plugs must be directly wired to the electrical panels of the house.
  Under no conditions is it acceptable for a charging line to be stretched across a community sidewalk. For a temporary installation of less than 6 months duration, residents may apply to have permission to place a tube under the sidewalk in order to run a 110V extension while their permanent charging station is installed.
  All permanent electrical lines must be buried in conduit according to code and go under any sidewalks, ramps, or gutters. No 240V electrical wires are permitted to be installed under community sidewalks.
  A charging station must be placed inside a single parking space. It cannot straddle the dividing line nor can it be centered in the parking spot as that would interfere with the numbering of the parking space.
  For single family homes a charging station can be mounted directly to the house or garage or mounted on a post that allows easier access to the parking spaces. If post mounted, it should be mounted in the half of the driveway that is closest to the house.
  There are a number of things in there that are contradictory. You can install a L2 charger, but if you're in a townhouse, you're not allowed to wire it up using 240V. You also can't place it on your house, because the cord wouldn't be able to reach and that's not allowed anyway, because it'd cross a sidewalk. Neat.
  
  Exactly right. The next best step would be for businesses to install them for employees and customers, but that’s a big expense and maintenance problem.
  I really don’t know what the answer is. I’m completely for EV, but the unpredictable ,or lack of availability, of charging is a big deal.
  
  Honestly that seems like a pretty bog standard set of requirements for electric vehicle charger. Any electrician should be able to put together a little plan for your HOA. I don't see why you think that this is an impossible requirement.

- That is categorically false and it's dishonest to suggest so.
  GDP is at the highest rate in years. We are at full employment. Participation rate is the highest it's been in 50 years. Wages outpaced inflation while inflation was crazy high helping debtors and the working class at the same time.
  Your ideology blinds you.
  
  Do you have a source on “wages outpac[ing] inflation”?

Sell EV’s under $30k and you’ll sellout!
- The Bolt? Sorry, they are getting rid of that for a few years. Hell, it took a lot for them to even agree to bring the damn thing back. They were going to kill it despite its popularity.
  
  GM is bringing back the Bolt next year with a new battery design.
- It's ridiculous how bad EV prices are. They think 2 years of wages for a sedan with leather seats is reasonable
  
  Ah you mean sedan with "vegan leather" or normal people would call it plastic :D
- Do they even sell ice’s for that?
  
  Average vehicle sale price in the US in 2023 was just under $48k… so only if you buy used.
  
  Several brands have base models at ~20k plus tax. Nissan Sentra, Chevy Trax, etc...
- You can get a base Tesla model 3 for under 30k with the federal incentive right now. Go to the website if you don’t believe me.
  People still don’t understand that EVs have a total cost of ownership that saves you 10-20k over the life of the vehicle compared to an ICE vehicle. Now the sticker prices are getting cheaper than ICE vehicles and people still can’t get past the expensive versions from a few years ago.
  If you’re waiting for Ford to offer a sub 30k vehicle, you’re going to be waiting a while. They seem to be giving up on trying to get to scale on production and won’t bring costs down on the numbers they’re pumping.
  
  Oh I’m not in the market, and that’s still a lot of money. Thanks for that, because someone will find it useful.

Car dealers are useless middlemen that should be put out of business.

despite our economic prosperity
Fuck you. I could barely afford a Honda Fit.
- It's the super wealthy that are being prosperous meanwhile the rest of us are getting fucked.
  Meanwhile every EV on the market is sold as a luxury car and they can't grok why the fuck nobody's buying. Gee I fucking Wonder...
- It was the largest auto I could afford
  I like the car a lot but being 6'3 on long trips is not fin
  
  Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
  https://piped.video/gkBqVVbnZ1c?si=7p5mJ5qpsgvNdC-3
  Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
  I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
- More economical and practical than any electric car on the market lol. Too bad they stopped selling them in the states.

I want an EV but the only affordable option is Chevy and somewhat the Nissan Leaf. Every other option is way to expensive. If my current car died, I guess I would buy one of them. But I'm going to drive it into ground or until sometime else affordable comes along.
- I think driving your car to the ground is the most environment friendly approach anyway regardless of the type of car you'll buy next.
  
  On the other hand, I'd assume if the old car is functional, they'd sell it to someone who would then "drive it to the ground" (or sells it to another). It's environmentally friendly as long as the car is used by someone
  
  With regular electronics you'd have a point.
  But the thing with cars is that there is a giant aftermarket.
  Basically, if someone buys a new one at the top, they sell their used car to someone else, who sells their car to someone else, who sells their car to someone else, ... until one old mangled and polluting car at the bottom gets scrapped.

Give me an EV without a massive center console that blinds me at night. Remove all the "smart" features like lane assist. Give me a fucking dumb EV
- This drives me crazy. Take a solid platform like the FRS.. electrify it for something equiv to 300/300 and give it a 200 mile range. No fancy interior, lots of plastic, no lane assist etc. It would be fun and affordable. Same platform could be used for a more refined crossover.
  I feel like Honda really should have done some type r civic thing but with electric.
  
  I fucking love my frs. I can't stand seeing the interiors on even just fancy ICE cars now, much less electrics. My wife's traverse has a horrifically unintuitive touchscreen interface for the radio and rear A/C. My car is like the last of a dying breed. Have almost 150k miles now. It's a dream.
  
  I really do think this will happen in the near future. Right now, every company is targeting the high end segment and slowly making it's way down.
- The only one I've seen is the VW "e-up!".
  
  I'd take an electrified peoples wagon
- Upcoming Citroen e C3 - which Murica will prob never get
- The smart features aren't really that much extra. You are basically just paying for a couple extra cameras. The software part is scaled across all models.
  
  Yeah on a Tesla, other reputable manufacturers use radar and lidar as well as cameras and even microphones. Plus the software, a high end GPU. That right there is a 10k package at minimum. Also the labor of routing wires for all the equipment
  Seriously where do you get your information?
- You're right. As a Tesla owner there's every reason to want the power, range, and maybe a couple of the features but with tangible controls etc
  The Kia/Hyundai offerings are probably your closest bet.
  I almost never use the assists. I don't mind the idea that if the computer sees a looming impact it will brake for me though.
- I have dark mode and auto dimming on my huge center console monitor. It's a non issue. The only thing it really shows is my car on a map and what is playing on Spotify. I never look at it or am distracted by it when driving.
  I do feel like there is room for a nice super simple EV with minimal/no screens and only the features required by law. It would need quite a few buttons for windows, heated seats, heated steering wheel, defrost, climate control etc but it would be quite a calm experience I think not having a huge monitor there.
  
  Maybe to you, personally I'd rather have knobs and buttons on my console. Way less detracting and easier to operate without taking my eyes off the road. If I need a map, I have a GPS in my pocket where I can easily adjust the brightness or turn off the screen and follow the spoken directions. I have a 2016 Veloster and that has the biggest screen that should be in a car, also isn't there to operate the cats functions. Also have a 2021 Tuscon and the infotainment system is a fucking abomination and is just horrible to operate and drive at night with
- My wife really likes the lane assist feature on her car. She says it helps her be less distracted when she drives.
  
  I live out in the country where none of these features work for more than 2 min. Most cities around me are the same. Its a near useless feature that only cost (WAY) more for me
- They have night settings just like the infotainment centers in ICE vehicles. They also have dimming functions if you have such sensitive eyes you can’t stand even a small amount of light coming from the console. This is not a real problem. This is you bitching about stuff you don’t want.
  
  What if I want to change the interior temp? Am I supposed to pull over stare at this giant monstrosity if a screen? Right now I can simply turn a dial.
  This has to be the worst defense of a sub standard idea that is a computer screen for a center console

It may also have something to do with all the announcements about changing the charging port. I wouldn’t buy a car when I know they’re changing g that next year. I mean, it’s about time, but that’s going to deter buyers
- I look forward to buying an EV with a usb-c charging port.
  
  I am sure they come with carplay
- That and the slow rollout the manufacturers have done in moving to EV.

You can't sell EV's because:
1: too expensive to buy new 2: if you live anywhere that's not a big city, or you have a garage, there is basically no electric chargers for you.
The city I live in (~30k people) has 6 chargers total. None of them are superchargers. Wait times are already a sticking point in the best case, nevermind what the wait times would be if everyone where I'm at had an electric car tomorrow. The whole downtown would maybe gridlock just because of people waiting.
For comparison, there are probably 2-300 gas pumps around the city. 5 gas stations within 5 minutes of where I am, all with at least 8 pumps, all well used. People are not going to get EV's unless there is an infrastructure that is equivalent to gas around where they live.
And that infrastructure is not gonna be fun to get going.
The average person living in the city can't really use them with street parking, can't always guarantee a spot after all, and installing a personal one for yourself all but requires a personal garage, which locks out the people who live in poorer housing.
Lots of people in my city and I suspect many others live in trailer parks with low/fixed incomes, having just a simple driveway. Where are they gonna get the thousand or two to install a Level 2 charging station? My mom and dad certainly don't have the money.
Expecting the EV companies to make the infrastructure with the money they get just from selling EV's is gonna turn into one gigantic chicken-and-egg problem. The government is going to have to do it, and anyone who's not living along an interstate can see just how much benefit they are personally getting from it so far.... (hint: none)
- You don't need a level 2 charger at home. You don't need gas stations equivalents. EV companies won't make infrastructure, because we've already built tons of infrastructure for EVs and it's called the electric grid. Everywhere has electricity. I was recently in a very remote area for vacation in my EV, and just plugged my car into a regular outlet to charge it up. To get there, I stopped for lunch and plugged my car in at a supercharger while I ate.
  Target is putting in superchargers at lots of their locations around me. Other places are or will follow suit. If you can't charge at home, you'll simply stop by the store/mall/whatever, do your normal shopping, and have your car charge in the meantime. Or you'll charge at work, or any number of other places.
  EVs aren't hard, they just require a mindset shift. People worry about this and that, but it's because they haven't actually tried it and have given too much weight to FUD spread about EVs.
  
  100% agree. For most small commutes, 110v outlet is just plenty but let’s all flip out until then. Is a level 2 at home handy, sure, required nope.
  The amount of misinformation, FUD, and just plain lies is mind boggling.
- A second hand Renault Zoe can be had for about £5k. MG4 for about £25k if you insist on getting new. I appreciate these may not be options where you live but the prices are coming down if you're willing to look beyond the traditional brands.
  What these articles fail to mention is that it's the "legacy" brands like Ford that are struggling. Brands like BYD and Tesla are doing just fine and are struggling to keep up with demand in some cases.
  Also, you charge at home.
  The infrastructure where you live doesn't matter. The infrastructure where you're going to or on the route might matter if it's far away enough.
  I live in a town with a smaller population than yours. We have 2 chargers at 50kw, which is pretty slow by modern standards.
  So far I've used it once when testing that the car was working okay when I first got it. That's it. Never used it since. Because I charge at home.
  Nearest super charger is around 50 miles away. Which is fine. Because I'll always leave with 100% charge.
  I've never waited for charging. Probably because I own a Tesla and have access to their super charging network which was about 50% the reason I got that over the Ioniq 5 or Nissan Aryia. I look forward to the competition getting better and my recommendation being beyond "get a Tesla if you're worried about charging".
  And yes, I have done long trips (at least by UK standards) and I have needed to charge before I got home. But the car's range is bigger than my bladder's/stomach's range so frankly I would have stopped anyway and the car took care of adding charging stops for me.
  I have seen people queuing at non Tesla chargers and can only assume it's a frustrating experience. In the UK new chargers are being opened at an impressive rate (up ~40% on last year, IIRC) so hopefully that issue won't be so bad in the future.
  It's not there yet, but the problems are getting solved and the prices are coming down. If you can charge at home then it's probably a good option. If you can't, that's another matter.
  In the same way you don't care about MTU settings to get the best out of your Internet these days, you won't care about the issues with charging and prices soon. It will suddenly get better and nobody will even notice or care anymore.
  
  I don't think the vast emptiness that is the US translates well to the UK. By area, New Mexico is almost the exact same size as the british isles, and it's only the 5th largest state. I've done 400+ miles in a single day of driving many times. The furthest I've driven in a day was close to 800 miles.
- You really can't expect equal infrastructure to gas when so many people can charge at home and that's enough for the vast majority of driving. DC fast charging is for road trips and people who can't charge at home for whatever reason (mainly apartments). Yes, I understand they exist.
  That said, the home modifications needed are often overestimated. I got a 50 amp 240V outlet installed in my garage. One electrician quoted $1300, but GM has a promo for a free installation. That guy quoted $1800, but GM paid it in full. More importantly: my panel is on the other side of the house. They had to run about 50 feet of wiring through my laundry room and up to the front of my garage - hardly a typical scenario when so many people have the panel in or near their garage already. That was for a huge circuit that will basically last me forever. But honestly? So many people grossly overestimate their needs. Even a little 16A 240V outlet would be just fine for most people, most of the time, and that's really not much different than adding a normal outlet in terms of cost. Speaking of normal outlets, even that can get you a few dozen miles of charge overnight, every night, which is pretty close to what an average person drives over a year.
- If a person in a trailer park is buying a brand new car from a dealership they can afford to have a level 2 charger installed. But also a lot of people are fine with just a normal plug.
  There will NEVER be an equal amount of chargers as gas stations simply because it's not necessary. Most people charge at home.

When I bought my Volt 10 years ago, I knew more about the car than any of the dealer sales people. I doubt the situation has changed much. That being said, I would hesitate to recommend an EV to a non technically inclined person, because the charging situation is still rough even in CA. Stations are often broken, or the billing doesn't work, or they are in inconvenient areas. Gas is still the idiot proof option. We will know we're really in the future when you can go to most grocery stores or strip mall and charge with tap to pay (no stupid app to pre-configure). There has to be 95% reliability. Right now I'd say about 1/5 of stations I visit have something wrong with them in terms of no internet connection for billing, slow charging, illegible UV-damaged screen, or just outright broken hardware. https://heatmap.news/electric-vehicles/nema-14-50-mobile-charger-lucid-air

car dealers literally don't need to exist and make the buying experience worse for everyone

Translation: Car dealers don't make as much money from EV's.
Car sales is a racket anyway, the dealers make too much money, the car manufacturers make too much money, and with the prospect of a new technology that costs more they've realised that they can't charge as much more, meaning they profit less.
Price is not proportional to cost.
The biggest crime is the villainisation of haggling. Price must be negotiable for a system to remain fair.
- Yeah, hate haggling. Never know if it is actually a good deal, and tracking prices and deals is so unreliable compared other goods with the way those have historic price tracking recorded on sites like camelcamelcamel or keepa. Keeps consumers in the dark with only a broad idea of what isn't a scam price and making the experience as exhausting as possible to extract money from them.
  
  If it's cheaper than the list price, it's at least a better deal.
- Car sales is a racket anyway
  Correction
  Cars are a racket anyway
  EV cars are better than ICE cars, but the biggest problems with cars are so much bigger than the type of engine they use. As grateful as I am for EV cars being a thing sometimes they just feel like a distraction from solving the actual fundamental issues around transportation.

I refuse to buy a DRM infested iPhone / un-rootable Android on wheels with data hoarding spyware and no access to service manuals, parts or service tools. Also decent build quality without excessive and inappropriate use of plastic.
My car is a not a 10 year disposable item. ~< 2008 era cars for me.
I'd argue that cars becoming part of the disposable economy is even worse for the eNViRoMeNt.

A problem with EV is those cars are infected with DRM.
Remember tesla deactivate DLC ?

Are hybrids still a thing?
- Yes the new Ford Maverick has a hybrid option and it's been selling very well.
  
  So well in fact that if you want one you probably can't get one, unless you are willing to pay 20% over MSRP for a used one. And now for 2024, the hybrid drivetrain is no longer the standard and is instead a $2500 upgrade. I wanted one but honestly fuck Ford.
- Saw a article of a pickup the other day that was an electric driven vehicle with limited miles and a diesal powered generator that would charge the battery. Total range was 500 or so. Wish I could remember what it was, it sounds like evidence of what you were looking for.

Wasn't there a story like a week ago about dealers sabotaging EV sales?
- Article: Electric vehicles are hitting a road block: Car dealers
  
  Thank you!
- A couple of them. This is more fuel to the dealership dumpster fire.

I've totally got the money to buy a new car. My 2005 forester is getting long in the tooth and i'm ready to replace it.
I want a smallish car with the same basic features: AWD, 4door, boxy rear so I can toss a full size mtn bike in there, good in the snow, etc.
My distinct impression is that the manufacturers want to sell high end (all the options and $$) but don't give a shit about usability. Chevy volt comes close but can't take a bike.
- I wouldn't exactly call any car that you can throw a full size mountain bike in the back a "small car." I could barely do that with my old Subaru outback.
  At this point in time, you're going to be looking at a Kia Niro (sans awd), Subaru Solterra / Toyota Bz4x, plug-in hybrid Crosstrek, EV6, EV9, Ioniq 5, Volvo EX30, C40, XC40, Polestar 3, and Tesla model 3 and Y.
  But really what you want to do is to put a hitch on the back with a hitch mounted bicycle rack. They cost about 4 to $500 for a full install and will let you carry a bike without needing a huge car.
  Your other option of course is a pickup truck like a Rivian, Lightning or Cybertruck but those will set you back probably $75,000 to $100,000.
  
  My 2005 forester is much smaller than many other cars out there. It takes a full size mtn bike just fine. The real key is the boxy shape. The EV9 is bigger but not by much and might be worth me checking out. thx.
  I really appreciate having the bike inside after a ride allowing me to stop for food or an errand on the way home.
- Just buy a toyota sienna and come over to the dark side.
  the gentle sound of a smoooooth sliding door reveals an entire living room in the back of the minivan (what the hell how much space is there back there is that a pool table??), lounge music begins playing
  come in... you know you want to
  would you like... a vacuum massage? The center console comes stock with a nice hose.
- Yeah the options just don't exist yet especially under $35k new what would you buy?
- Look into a Leaf. I love mine. Hatchback trunk with fold down rear seats will fit you bike. I've had mine since 2019 and love it.
- Hyundai Kona electric is a good option.

They refuse to learn about them and actively direct people to ICE vehicles. No shit they are having a 'hard time' selling them. They have tried less than nothing to sell them.
- I have Ford hybrid manuals. It won't do you much good on the cost of the tools to work on them. Best advice on hybrids is to learn how to disconnect your battery before servicing your vehicle.
  If you can afford the 3k tool then it is only 1k per year :D

This year, 18% of all automobile sales worldwide were electric cars. In the US, that's about 7%.

I agree with them but not for the reasons they would like, less pushing of EVs more pushing of good public transportation.

"And then not only are EVs more expensive, but their own salespeople are untrained. They don't even know how to answer most of the questions they get. A lot of them have 100–200 percent turnover of their sales staff in a given year," Reigersman told me.
This seems not good. I might have been slightly more sympathetic to the dealers before reading this?
- Lol yeah, I've worked in a dealership. I was fine with it till my foreman got fired because he took all the blame from customers instead of staff.
  Anyways when they were interviewing his replacement I started looking for a new job. I got into it with him because he wouldn't even listen to anyone talk about pay raises.
- High turnover in sales has been common for forever in some dealerships. Many salesmen work only commission so they hire more than needed, don't train them and let anyone who doesn't meet quota go. Meeting quota is impossible because there are more salesmen than needed, and you need years to build up a following of loyal customers (most customers are not loyal no matter what you do, but the few who are go to the few long timers) . Non loyal customers like to think they are buying from the new salesman so long timers have a set of business cards without a name on them to hand out.
  The above is what I remember from an Edmund's article from around 2000 when they hired a new writer and the first story was to get a job selling cars to find out what it was really like. I doubt much has changed. (Not all car sales are that way, but many are, and that is reflected in turnover)

I'm not buying an EV not because of lack of infrastructure or lack of interest, but because the product sucks.
I'm not buying a gas car either for the same product sucking reason, and an active desire to never purchase a gas car again.

I just leased an Ioniq 6 from a Hyundai dealership end of October. The salesperson was great, but she didn’t know anything about EVs, especially their own. She even admitted it was the first one she’s sold.
I went back a week ago and found the same 5 Ioniq 6’s sitting there. I’m pretty sure they’ll stay there for quite a while.
- She even admitted it was the first one she’s sold.
  She hasn't even sold that one, since you leased it instead of buying it.
  
  Fair enough, I went lease because everyone’s going NACS soon.

Wow angling to pass lawyers as the most reviled profession in the country huh?

car dealers bring as much value to society as landlords. it's a negative value.

Fellas, fellas, please. I assume you, I wouldn't buy the gas one either.

This is the best summary I could come up with:
After making record profits in the wake of the pandemic and the collapse of just-in-time inventory chains, they're now complaining that selling electric vehicles is too hard.
Almost 4,000 dealers from around the United States have sent an open letter to President Joe Biden calling for the government to slow down its plan to increase EV adoption between now and 2032.
More and more car buyers are opting to go fully electric each year, although even a record 2023 will fail to see EV uptake reach double-digit percentages.
Mindful of the fact that transportation accounts for the largest segment of US carbon emissions and that our car-centric society encourages driving, the US Department of Energy published a proposed rule in April that would alter the way the government calculates each automaker's corporate average fuel efficiency.
Over the summer, industry analysts at Cox Auto made plenty of headlines with data showing that new EV inventory was growing.
Helpfully, the dealers published a complete list of the 3,882 signatories, making it very easy for people to see which businesses are opposing action on climate change.
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