What do Hexbear's think about the Catalunyan independence movement?
What do Hexbear's think about the Catalunyan independence movement?
I'm torn between "Every people deserves the right to self-determination" and "Catalunya is richer than Spain, so it's the bourgeosie wanting to split off from the poors and pay less tax"
I'm sceptical about independence movements in general. Overwhelming majority of newly independent countries go absurdly nationalistic and anticommunist. The only ones that turned out to be at least acceptable were explicitly leftist from the beginning.
Read Stalin's Marxism and the National Question. https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1913/03a.htm
Nationalism derives from the bourgeoisie and intellectual middle class that develops as a result of capitalism, but national oppression can make it a cause of the working class. Not all "nationalism" is the same and must be evaluated dialectically on a case by case basis
But it goes both ways when the bourgeoisie use nationalism to keep its control over the working class even after successful secession. In fact, the same nationalism can swiftly go from somewhat positive to very negative thing, like Polish nationalism that almost instantaneously went from national liberation goals to anticommunism and national oppression against ethnic minorities in newly independent Poland.
independence movements in colonized countries, even the ones that went left afterward involved to some extent rightist nationalists. the only event conforming to your general rule is the dissolution of the USSR, which distinctly marginalized the left since the left are the ones who were overthrown. other countries it's not so discrete, look at Africa or South America, leftwing and conservative independence movements have both been successful, and have often overthrown each other after independence.
Independence movements in post-WW1 Europe also mostly produced right-wing nationalistic countries with short-lived Hungarian Soviet Republic as the only exception (that got crushed by other newly formed countries).
Former colonies is murkier question, but even there things often didn't improve for the left (although interference from imperial powers often played a decisive role in shifting the political dominance to rightists there).
The bolsheviks botched the national question but 90% of the left-I-interact-with (to save on overgeneralizing) doesn't want to talk about that. Seeing people push national liberation as a core tenet of communist theory nearly gave me a stroke the other day. There's a reason all those SR's created under the guise of the USSR became hyper-reactive the second the larger force of soviet socialism fell away. I'm with Luxembourg on this one
apparently the anarchists are supporting independence, maybe they figure they can take it over afterward lol. but beyond that, i think my desire to see the Francoist monarchy & sucdem cowards eat shit is greater than some bourgeoisie getting some wish fulfillment. at the very least it'd be republic
The CDR had the chance to do something very based, that's true
"Every people deserves the right to self-determination"
Here's the thing: this isn't really true, is it? There isn't really a universal right to "self determination", if there was we'd have to acknowledge the right of those successionist yahoos who want to true some random county in Montana into AnCapistan to legalize child marriage. We recognize people should be ruled by a government that represents them, and in examples like colonialism that right is being blatantly violated, but that doesn't mean every group of 10 or more people who are unhappy with their government has some universal right to form their own little country. If we did the whole world would be a patchwork of micro-nations the size of Rhode Island.
at minimum theyre getting rid of a monarchy, which i consider to be an improvement
But if you recognize the right of self-determination for yahoos that want child brides, that is negating the self-determination of the children that are victims. What would be the problem with a patchwork of micro-nations? These nations could form federations or whatever to complete projects that may take the resources of a large nation, or whatever reason there would be to want large nations versus micro-nations. They could form alliances that say "we don't like micro-nations that have child brides and shit like that" and they could fight against that. But then you basically have a United States sort of thing.
But if you recognize the right of self-determination for yahoos that want child brides, that is negating the self-determination of the children that are victims.
Do children have a universal right to self determination? We protect children from abusive and neglectful parents but we do also recognize that good parents have some authority of their children. We don't let children run away and join the circus or eat nothing but candy till they have diabetes.
What would be the problem with a patchwork of micro-nations?
Cuz it tends to create ethnic conflicts and war. Yah know like in Yugoslavia. That's literally where the term balkanization comes from. Plus few places are totally ethnically homogenous, what if my home falls in the border of one micro nation despite me preferring the government of the micro nation just to my south? What if my village is split 50-50 between two ethnic groups, which micro nation do we join?
These nations could form federations or whatever to complete projects that may take the resources of a large nation, or whatever reason there would be to want large nations versus micro-nations.
This is how most democratic nations already work though, they divide their territory up into regions that have some local autonomy in political matters.
if there was we'd have to acknowledge the right of those successionist yahoos who want to true some random county in Montana into AnCapistan to legalize child marriage.... every group of 10 or more people who are unhappy with their government has some universal right to form their own little country. If we did the whole world would be a patchwork of micro-nations the size of Rhode Island.
Yeah but those aren't a people.
Now if you ask me to define "What's a people? What's a nation?" I can't give you a cut-and-dried definition that will fit all cases. If you want to say ten people are a nation it's a clichéd old schoolground argument (parodied in Ulysses: "A nation is the same people living in the same place. —By God, then, says Ned, laughing, if that's so I'm a nation for I'm living in the same place for the past five years.") but use common sense. Catalonia has a language and hundreds of years of history. The Kurds have a language and thousands of years of history. Ten people in a township isn't comparable.
Every people deserves the right to self-determination
I’ll support a nationalist struggle if it directly helps the left but I feel like anything in the white/european sphere outside of the territory wanting to do a USSR 2 should just be ignored. Like how does an independent Catalonia get us communism? It’s just going to be another state in the EU, maybe left leaning but it will still be capitalist. Look at Ireland, the IRA is fucking dead, even if they got back north Ireland at this point it wouldn’t fucking matter as it’s just libs running it.
This says the IRA run the biggest party, idk: https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2023/07/22/inside-sinn-fein-the-men-and-women-behind-irelands-biggest-political-party/
Sinn Fein is sucdem, the Ira lost much of its Marxist roots before the troubles even started. And sure they are left for Western Europe, but Ireland is largely irrelevant now to modern leftists. Their support for Palestine is nice but it’s a mostly empty gesture, they still have an Israeli embassy ffs. Ireland has been integrated fully into the imperial core like South Korea was in the 21st century.
at minimum theyre getting rid of a monarchy
I think that independence would entail a great economic recession, seeing how companies relocated to other parts of Spain leading up to the (shitty and unserious) referendum. The EU said they wouldn't allow them to use the Euro if they got the independence IIRC. Even if they got it on favorable conditions, it wouldn't really make a substantial difference, they could be "bullied" by Spain as much as they are now, but with more symbolic sovereignty, maybe? Spain has the bigger companies and Catalonia would most likely be forced to trade with those, while critical industries like energy, telecomms and transport are private, so the ownership probably wouldn't be transferred.
I wouldn't take Catalonian independence too seriously, although I think some liberties should be granted. The concerning part is conservatives who are frothing at the mouth at the weakest independence effort, calling it "Spain's doom" or whatever tf, and at absolving some politicians who were initially accused of rebellion (as if they were armed) and finally charged with sedition, despite there not being much violence apart from some protests. They also disregard how ~50% voted for independentist parties on the elections leading to the referendum, wanting to sweep those people under the rug, as if that could be equated to solving the problem.
As someone who grew up in a exclusively Spanish-speaking region, I get how these reactionaries come to be. They think Catalonia/Euskadi/Galicia is just another region and "is Spain and therefore they must speak Spanish" (which the constitution says), completely unaware of those regions' history and context. I would dare say the majority of parents who want their children being taught in Spanish (something right wingers are very loud about, as all classes are given in Catalan/Euskera/Galician) are just (Spanish) immigrants. Most people there are born speaking their language and die speaking their language, just like the Spanish-speaking regions do with Spanish. Their languages were outright banned for centuries since 1715. No wonder lots of anarchists were Catalonian and Basque. Never mind the obvious asymmetry of having to learn a completely external language (external to the community, specially in reference to rural areas, which are the most pro-independence). Though I don't think this is a pressing issue, I still believe better policy should be implemented, either Switzerland's or Canada's way. Of course, there are other factors to the respective national identities, but to me it seems the most visible.
On the other hand, there's also that petty-bourgeois "we are paying for the rest of the country" line of thought. Again, the largest independentist party by far is right-wing. This may have been exacerbated by the economic crisis, austerity politics post-2008 and the general hostility coming from the right-wing government, but don't take my word for it.
I admit, I'm not an expert in the subject, so feel free to correct or dismiss me.
nationalism bad, big nationalism worse than small nationalism. everyone secede from everyone and we all get a vote in the UN.
I wont even begin to entertain the notion of my personal UN membership, until i'm guaranteed a permanent position on the security council, veto power, a snazzy little hat, and a plarque reading in charge of anarchism on my desk
I will accede to this as long as I can have the same, except the plaque reads "CEO of gender"
prefer the catalhoyuk independence movement
Basque independence movement has better vibes, no I will not elaborate
Hot take but Catalonian isn't even a dialect, it looks like it's just an accent. If you go on catalunyan wikipedia it is identical to spanish with just minor spelling differences (that they seem to forget to use occassionally). Like if Catalunyan is a language then New Yorker and Bostonite are languages.
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Support because fuck Europe, let those bastards deal with secessionist movements trying to emulate it for the next fifty years. Nice bit of irony after forcibly colonizing the rest of the world.
However if I lived in Europe I probably would not support it lol
The less Spain the better
Good take