Science says teens need more sleep. So why is it so hard to start school later?
Science says teens need more sleep. So why is it so hard to start school later?
132 comments
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Well when you realize we treat school as glorified babysitting and not just education, part of the reason becomes more obvious. Parents work 40 hours so we need kids in school roughly that length of time. Especially when both parents have to work to afford to live.
We need to uplift a lot about the entire system for it to work.
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Especially when both parents have to work to afford to live.
That's exactly the problem right there.
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Also ppl are obsessed with high school sports so that's another reason why they start high school so early (my high school started at 7:45 AM), so there's time after for sports practice.
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But then it's not so much sports. The real cause is it's childcare while parents work.
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In my family member's district, that's not even a consideration. And weirdly many in the district have a shared overall employer and work starts at 5am to 7am for many of them. Leaving the other parent to drop off or making kids ride the bus solo.
The only thing dictating the schedule is sports. You get some parents that complain about everything. Meaning a fraction of a percent will complain about school starting too early, too late, on days it's too windy, on days the sun is too bright, whatever. Parents are super awful nowadays. But all that is noise. The only complaint en mass they get that isn't political/vaccine/FoxNews is sports related. Game started too late/early, not enough fields for all the kids to practice. The million dollar astroturf is bent the wrong way now, and needs maintenance IMMEDIATELY.
There was a high school building that got severely flood damaged in a hail storm. Parts of it are still boarded up and not fixed. But the $30m+ stadium they don't need is almost finished.
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This is it, regarding Canada at least. I took a course called HIstory of Canadian Education, the education system in Canada was created because of rising hooliganism in cities, as rural couples moved into cities and took factory jobs, and left their children home to fend for themselves.
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it's disgusting how we prioritize sports over education at the ostensibly education instutions
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YUP. I went to a small middle of nowhere school that punched far above its weight in academic performance and well below its weight in sports. Sports budget was consistently enormous compared to everything else and then would have massive splurge years on fucking stadium lights. That shit will never ever remotely meet its value but its the agenda.
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I don’t think this is the whole picture, it doesn’t explain why we have such similar school schedules in other countries where school sports aren’t so relevant
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All school schedules historically are because of farmers and blue collar worker schedules.
Now that we've outlawed child labour (well, it's coming back...) and your family's survival doesn't count on getting those crops picked, we now have freedom to choose school hours at any time. Those countries without such strong sports have had few issues moving it to later start. It's the sporty ones that resist.
The poorer countries that still have mostly basic labour students and/or child labour are still on an early schedule for the same reason the more developed nations started out that way.
I'd say the only outlier is China. They start early and go loooooong. That's for bashing in some of the best education at the expense of most other things. There's probably a happy middle ground in there somewhere.
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whose* direct family member
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It's a bit depressing to me that we've known this for at least twenty years, and possibly more and it's still a problem.
A major concern has been busing. Even in normal times, districts use the same buses and drivers for students of all ages. They stagger start times to do that, with high schoolers arriving and leaving school earliest in the day. The idea is that they can handle being alone in the dark at a bus stop more readily than smaller children, and it also lets them get home first to help take care of younger siblings after school.
If high schools started as late as middle and elementary schools, that would likely mean strain on transportation resources. O'Connell said Nashville's limited mass transit compounds the problem.
"That is one of the biggest issues to resolve," he said.
This is basically it, school systems not wanting to buy the extra buses or hire the extra drivers they'd need.
Unfortunately I don't see this ever being solved without a major cultural/financial shift in the USA towards properly funding education. Too much financial pressure to have fewer buses and fewer drivers. If my high school and middle school had started at the same time as the elementary, that'd be like 14 new buses alone at $60k-$110k a pop, not including driver wages and the diesel for each one...and we had more than one high school and middle school in our district. So it'd be more like 50 new buses, just to start HS and middle school at the same time as elementary. The cost would eat smaller districts alive. It'd be several million just to procure the buses new.
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It's baffling how many U.S problems can be traced back to car-oriented development.
Here in Sweden, dedicated school buses are uncommon - getting to school is usually a matter of walking when young, and then using the common public transportation when older, or biking, or a mix of those two.
Here's how I got to school while growing up:
- Years 1 -6: school 0.4 km away, walked or biked
- Years 7-9: school 2 km away, biked or took the bus
- Years 10-12: school 9.1 km away, took the bus to school
Note that this was one of the most car-oriented cities in Sweden of about 100k people, meaning that this experience is probably unusually bad for Sweden.
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I won’t argue that the US is exceedingly car-focused, but that’s partly because distances travelled are greater. When I was a kid, my elementary school was 2.6 miles (4.18 km) from my house, and many classmates would have been even further. I had classmates who had a 45 minute bus ride (time stretched by making multiple stops obviously). While I’m sure 5 year olds can bike 2.6 miles, it’s probably not ideal and certainly not ideal in snow/sub-zero (Fahrenheit) temps. Much of the US is just very spread out.
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When I was at school, the bus was a charter from the company that ran the local public bus fleet. Every other time it was running public routes or just part of that companies reserve.
But this was in the UK, where dedicated school buses are exceptional.
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Yeah you were lucky. I had to take public transport for the number 93 bus. Memories of queuing in the rain.
On the plus side, the bus was filled with pretty Japanese students going from their Hall of Residence to University.
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In the school district that I live in (and where my kids attend school), elementary school starts earliest and middle/high school both start at roughly the same time.
I've found that this works really well since my youngest wakes up and is ready to go earliest anyways, I don't have to adjust my schedule because they're out of the house before I have to get to work and I would need after school care regardless. My older kids can more or less fend for themselves before school so I don't need to worry about them while I get to work before they leave.
If elementary school started at 9 like high school and middle school I'd have to organize care for my youngest both before and after school since I'd be working at both times.
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And now imagine if instead of making new schools in places where everybody needs to be driven there either by car or by bus we build them so the majority would walk or bike as it is the more convient option. Other countries like Japan can imagine. Turns out it's actually better to walk/bike to school even who knew!
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The problem is you'd have to build not just schools, but entire neighborhoods so they are walkable + tunnels under any larger roads between them, or maybe guarded crossings would do here and there. While it could certainly be done, the majority of the US is built to be car centric from the ground up.
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Thank you for the insight! Love reading comments that really get to the heart of an issue without all the emotional crap.
Your comment for example, I had never thought along those lines. Not an easy problem.
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schools are largely daycare facilities for the low/middle income brackets.
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I am like the only parent who is happy with their child's school.
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Because school is entirely geared towards parents. Nothing about school is actually good for the people going through it, but the system doesn't actually care about them, and isn't designed to.
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Nothing? I’d argue that learning mathematics is good for people going through school but then again I’m no expert in education.
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It's not designed to teach mathematics particularly well
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Really? The thing most people end up using the least in their lives beyond an elementary school level?
Math education is a crapshoot for most people. All it does is serve as a way to make them feel bad about themselves for not being interested in what people like you tell them to be interested in.
Thank god computers are putting math majors out to pasture.
No, I'd argue learning history and how to read is more important than anything else the school system provides. It's what follows most of us throughout our entire lives.
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honestly abolish school. I can't imagine subjecting my hypothetical child to what I went through.
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to get them used to being overworked amd underpaid ofcourse
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You jest, but this was essentially the response one parent made when this subject was brought up in our school district.
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They cite one reason, busses, for the issue? With no mention of sports? Bad reporting.
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It should also say not every person has to be at their job at 9am plugging up the road for the same reason said teens are being dropped off by these parents.
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These are just outdated practices left over from previous generations. No one even tries to change them at this point. It would be so refreshing to see these things start to make sense.
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A major concern has been busing. Even in normal times, districts use the same buses and drivers for students of all ages. They stagger start times to do that, with high schoolers arriving and leaving school earliest in the day. The idea is that they can handle being alone in the dark at a bus stop more readily than smaller children, and it also lets them get home first to help take care of younger siblings after school.
If high schools started as late as middle and elementary schools, that would likely mean strain on transportation resources. O'Connell said Nashville's limited mass transit compounds the problem.
Are staggered start times common in America?
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Every school district I've been in does this.
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Very
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My oldest starts school at 7:35 and my youngest starts school at 9:20.
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Where I'm from primary, middle, and secondary school are near each other, use the same busses & staggered start times, and we have no public busses. At least I see more bike racks now than when I attended!
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I can tell you my personal hypothesis as to why it happens in universities:
- Timetabling work 8--4
- Misery loves company
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It has always been about work. It lines up with most morning shifts because no one can afford childcare.
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In my experience talking with school officials and reading between the lines of BS that get fed out by them, you get to take your pick because all are true.
- sports are more valuable than the mental and physical health of all of the students. Boosters bring in fat stacks for the school and scholarships bring prestige and clout when it comes time to justify government spending.
- so the teens can get out of school early enough to be exploited for free childcare by parents.
- so they can be pushed into the labor force after school.
Really all of them are actual reasons that they start so early despite overwhelming research that starting later in the morning would lead to better academic outcomes and better long-term information retention.
Schools in the USA are not about education. They are conditioning centers to "prepare" kids for abusive expectations in post graduation employment.
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Worked at a HS that started at 7 so kids could pick up their siblings after school. Many of them had jobs too - quite a few ended up being scheduled during the last class period too.
Schools in the USA are babysitting to keep the economy going. You can’t teach a class of 30. Students can do everything short of punch a teacher and you have to keep them in your room, so learning just doesn’t happen.
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Because parents would then have to pay someone to babysit and then take their kids to school at the later time in addition to after school care. And why can't parents go to work later? Same reason companies aren't allowing work from home even though it's proven that the majority of people are more productive. The managers need to justify their existence, so they have to have their employees all there at the same time. And for some reason society has decided that morning people are somehow better than everyone else.
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Because kids need to be at school while parents work
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Right, so they get home at 3pm, makes perfect sense
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It roughly lines up with morning shifts, I guess? When I was working at a grocery store our morning shift was like 6-3 with an hour lunch. I don't know how you make sure your kids actually go to school if you're at work by 6, though... And if you work evenings (or overnights, for places that are still open 24 hours) it doesn't help at all.
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After school care exists. Before school care too.
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Easy. Let parents start work later too.
I hate how getting up early is somehow perceived to be more efficient. There's nothing natural about working hours anyway. We could choose to place them when it fits more people.
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First it has to start early enough so parents can get kids off then get to work. Also, extra circular activities like sports and clubs, as well as parents wanting kids home when they are home.
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Because parents have to go to work, and teens with boyfriends/girlfriends don't know how to use condoms and can't get abortions in some states. Also, used car prices and insurance make teens driving to school on their own unaffordable.
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I'm pretty sure it just boils down to hatred of young people. "I had to get up early so you do too."
Which is why I think we should amend the constitution to allow cruel and unusual punishments for people who utter the phrase "build a better world for our children."
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Actual answer one heard that unfortunately makes sense: school sports after class. If you start classes later everything gets pushed back to obscene times.
Personally my high school started a half hour in grade 12. Just that made a world of difference.
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that unfortunately makes sense: school sports after class
I disagree that it makes sense. Get the sports out of the school system entirely and have them be community-based or similar. I think that should apply that to most extracurriculars. I participated in sports, band, theatre, etc. so it's not like I just hated it (I would argue that art, band, choir, gym, etc. are still good to have in the curricula of schools, just not the traditionally after-school part).
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That’s a pretty shit excuse at least for my schools times.
School starts at 7:20ish and gets out at 2ish and football, baseball, softball, soccer, basketball, and volleyball (maybe more idk) games start at 7. We don’t need 5 hours between. Getting out at 4 would not change that. It would just allow those players to get home late as always but actually get some sleep (footballs on Friday so those aren’t huge issues but the rest of the sports are during weekdays, often multiple in a row, which means those kids are tired as fuck.)
Tennis, Bowling, Swimming/Dive, Cross Country/Track and Golf (and any others idk) are all at about 3 which gives students time to get to said place after school lets out. Pushing those to 5 instead wouldn’t be that bad they’d get out at like 7 or 8 and have time to get home, do homework, and still get to bed before 11.
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It all goes back to the farmers. Farmers were up at the crack of dawn to use the light, so industry followed them. Now we're trapped in a circle, following the same schedule because we follow the same schedule.
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Our regular middle schools start late. It can work. The reason they don't do it for high school where it is needed most is sports.
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Easy. School isn't for school. It's a daycare with its hours offset from the working day, skewing early so parents can get their kids there before work. Kids spend 2 hours on a bus and 7 hours in a classroom every day because both of their parents have to work.
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Just wondering friends in Canada and EU - when do your teens start the class day? I don't doubt this is yet another thing US education gets wrong but just wondering how better funded education systems are doing things.
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The UK here. I think classes started for me just before 9 but the school would generally open a little after 8 so parents could drop their kids off.
It's worth mentioning we have a semi functioning public transport system so for all schools in urban areas, teenagers are expected to use that to get to school.
Out in the country school buses are still a thing though.
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UK - typically 9 - 3:30 for primary and 9-9:30 until 3 - 4 for secondary. I live on a street with 1 primary, 2 secondaries and a college, so they've gotten together and agreed to stagger things to cause less disruption during start and end times.
But we also have a public transport system and safe roads that means most kids walk/cycle/bus in.
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Canada - 9
But depending how far away they are they could be up at 5
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Between 8:15 and 10am
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Germany it's 8 am
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Support 1h nap before the actual classes.
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How about a nap time and just extend the day. It's odd to me that school gets out so early anyway.
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Then you’re extending the workday for teachers, who are already underpaid. I’d just start later
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Teens brains aren't wired to go to bed that early. It genuinely physiologically harder for the to fall asleep at the hours they are required to fall asleep to get adequate rest for school. Sure some kids will be perfectly fine going to bed at 10 and they'll immediately fall asleep, wake up at 6 and be fine but a lot of teens and I mean a lot find that to be a Herculean task.
I speak from experience, to this day I cannot fall asleep before midnight unless I've been worked ragged and even then it's difficult. When I was a teen I'd try and get enough sleep I really would but if I was to fall asleep at 10 I'd have to be in bed and trying to fall asleep by atleast 9 but probably 8 and even then there was no guarantees. On average throughout all of highschool I probably got 4 hrs per night.
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Teens are irresponsible, every time there’s a pilot program they just stay up later
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They would just stay up later if they knew they could sleep in. It won't fix that.
Also, If we are going to change it, we need to just shift everyones starting time back an hour so their parents can still take them to school before work. Or possibly drop some time off the workday.
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My response was also along the lines of "just go to sleep earlier". Then I yelled at some kids to get off my lawn before complaining about prune prices.
Jokes aside, I remembered that I'm not really a kid anymore, that I used to be sleepy during the day as well, and that I still couldn't fall asleep before midnight.
I don't have a viable solution for this problem. Going to bed earlier doesn't seem feasible. The only thing I can come up with rhymes with amphetamine.
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I get where you're coming from in that first sentence, but teens are more tired than adults, all things considered. It's a thing we've studied.
We explode into adulthood in just a few years. Growth, hormones and the attendant sexuality and social pressures, all that wears a young person to the bone. Teens aren't lazy, their bodies are kicking their ass. Looking back on the late 80's, it's a wonder I moved at all.
On one hand I say, meh, it's normal, let 'em deal with it. OTOH, I say, can't we all realize the biological facts and make concessions for them? That last part costs real money BTW, there's no magic switch to fix this.
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JuSt gO tO BeD eARliEr
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They would just stay up later if they knew they could sleep in.
A) Not infinitely
B) Not all of them
C) That doesn't change the actual data we have that says later start times are better
we need to just shift everyones starting time back an hour so their parents can still take them to school before work.
Or... we could stop designing our cities so that that's necessary?
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I stayed up late when I was a teenager anyway. My body wouldn't let me sleep.
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Why is it so hard to sleep earlier?
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The sun does weird stuff to melatonin and teenage brains are weird
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We already know that doesn’t work for most teens.
But you were just posting it to feel proud of yourself, not to actually help anyone. If you wanted to help, you’d have searched why that’s not an option.
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Because teachers give hours worth of busy work to try and justify their existance.
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Because way too much would need to be changed for that to work. Here's a hot tip, go to bed earlier.
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Here's a hot tip: We already know that doesn't work for most teens.
But you were just posting it to feel proud of yourself, not to actually help anyone. If you wanted to help, you'd have searched why that's not an option.
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132 comments