1y ago

Oh cool, a sword of detect evil

117 comments

Back in 3rd Edition D&D there was a spell called "Holy Word" that could kill non-good creatures within a 40 foot radius of the caster, if the caster was sufficiently high level relative to the creatures. Good creatures were completely unaffected.
When tightly packed you can fit about 2000 people into a 40-foot-radius circle (total area is 5000 square feet). So one casting can deal with the population of a good-sized town. My gaming group speculated for a while about a society where it was a routine ritual to round up all the peasantry and nuke them with Holy Word to keep the population clear of evil. Never incorporated it into any campaigns, though. It's a bit of a sticky philosophical puzzler.
- This is a weird one because despite being a "good" spell, it entails the mass murder of innocent neutrals. It really doesn't seem like a good action to me.
  It seems like anyone who was okay with this would fall to neutral or evil simply by virtue of being okay with mass murder, and in turn fall victim to the Great Neutral Purge.
  
  Indeed, hence the sticky philosophical puzzler. I would think that the clerics themselves would start getting affected by the spell. Fortunately (for them), the effect of the spell when cast on someone of the same level as yourself is only deafness for 1d4 rounds. The Church could probably cover that up.
  There was another interesting related situation that came up in an actual campaign I was in, involving the Blasphemy spell (a variant that only kills non-evil targets). My party and I were in our "home base", a mansion belonging to an allied NPC noblewoman, planning out our next excursion. A powerful demon we'd been tangling with attempted to scry-and-fry us, teleporting in and nuking us with Blasphemy. Unfortunately there were a lot of low-level NPC staff working in the noblewoman's household and the spell wiped them out instantly... except for one guy, who happened to be of evil alignment. He survived the encounter because of that.
  Even though his alignment was evil, though, he'd never done anything wrong and didn't seem like he had any reason to do anything wrong in the future. So we weren't sure if we should fire him or what. It wasn't illegal to simply be evil, you had to actually do something evil before you could be punished. We just warned him we'd be keeping an eye on him, in the end, and kept him on staff.
  
  I feel like there might be interesting ways to deal with it. Perhaps the mass killing of neutrals only ever happened the first time, which could have been many generations ago and under singular circumstances. Since then, only the odd one here or there ever dies during the purge. Perhaps it's been decades or centuries since anyone died to the purge, reinforcing belief in it's effectiveness as a basis for a pure society. It may have been so long that people wonder whether the purge is even real, or just a traditional ceremony carried out annually based on old myths. Then one year, it wipes out half the city. The party investigates?
  
  What is being good except having self-imposed restrictions to avoid doing something evil? This spell seems perfect. There will rarely be a time where a good aligned character could justify using it in an overpowered way. If it were inverted then you would see evil characters using it all the time. It's a self-imposed balance. You have a very powerful tool, but you must avoid using unless absolutely necessary.
  
  Almost as if the whole objective good vs bad system is kinda poorly thought out...
- Only good? What about neutral alignment? (if that was a thing)
  
  I hate these filthy Neutrals, Kif. With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals, who knows? It sickens me.
  Here's the SRD entry for the spell. It definitely nukes the neutrals.
  The evil equivalent is Blasphemy, which nukes all non-evil creatures. Yes, the neutrals get it from both sides.
  Then there's Word of Chaos and Dictum, the Law and Chaos equivalents of those Good/Evil spells. Neutrals, believe it or not, death!
  Pick a side, you neutral scum!
  
  I hate these filthy neutrals. With enemies you know where they stand, but with neutrals, who knows? It sickens me.
- Another aspect of the puzzle is that not every evil deserves death. A bum who does minor theft almost as a habit, a hateful bitter man who antagonizes everyone but obeys the law, a teenager, a greedy business person who employs half the town but makes everyone's life a bit worse, and so on.
  Good should have the self restraint to not go straight to murder.
  
  a hateful bitter man who antagonizes everyone but obeys the law
  As one of those hateful bitter people in the eyes of others who still is lawful, I emphatically tell you that we are evil and absolutely would and should be killed by Holy Word and other such spells.
  a teenager
  Wait, what?
  Actually everyone on your list should be killed by that spell, even the teenager though I vehemently disagree with that.
  Like you can sit there and quibble about what is actually evil or not but this is magic, and what matters is what the majority of people consider evil, and they all hit the mark. Most adults are ageist bigots who'd wipe out all teenagers on a dime if they could, for example, even though that's pretty evil.
  Good and evil are honestly pretty meaningless.
- I'd say "kill 'big' evil, stun 'normal' evil" would be a better spell.
- Situations like this give me the inclination to treat D&D Good™ and Evil™ as physical properties rather than moral tendencies. D&D Good™ that is a little too eager to murder beings labeled as Evil™ falls short of what I would consider good. If someone used such power to kill someone who is a pathological liar and petty thief, that wouldn't seem good to me even if that person could be classified as Evil™ as the system defines it.
  Then again while to me such act seems evil, I don't think I could call the caster Evil™ because D&D explicitly endorses killing Evil™ creatures as a Good™ act. Since the 1st edition, the purest paragon of Good™ that is the Paladin wields a weapon to kill.
  
  5th edition has done it better with the addition of "unaligned" to the mix, IMO. In order to have an alignment - even a neutral one - you need to explicitly dedicate yourself to that alignment, or be supernaturally bound to it such as with angels and demons. I would rule that these spells don't affect the unaligned.
- Chaotic good Santa Claus?

The sword's power changes with time, and as it racks up more kills. Soon, it gains a +1 to attack and damage. Then, it can become wreathed in flame as a bonus action. Then, it grants advantage to checks made to locate creatures. Then, its base power inverts and it can only kill non-evil creatures.
Do not tell the player about that last one. Insist to the player that it works exactly as you first described. The Paladin can kill innocent shopkeepers and little old ladies, but cannot kill this assassin working for the BBEG.
Will he question his own stab-first ask-later methods? Or will he turn evil without even noticing?
- I personally hate this kind of twist. If you need to actively lie to your player, not just mislead with some clever wordplay, it always feels like you’re breaking trust.
  
  Why explain it in meta, instead of the old trustworthy totally-not-a-witch saying it only affects evil?
  
  No need to lie, have it start to say stuff after awhile and if the other doesn't jump to demon sword that's on them.
- I also hate this kind of twist. There better be a great lore reason for this because it's a huge fuck your playstyle meta reason to do this.
  
  The playstyle is stabbing random townsfolk on the off chance you kill a bad guy. Fuck that playstyle.
  And for a lore reason, just have the sword be influenced by the morality of the wielder's actions. Stabbing random townsfolk is evil. The sword turns evil.
- If I were doing this, I wouldn't describe the effects exactly (except the +1). I would just tell them it misses every time they attack a non-evil character first, and describe it being wreathed in flames. Then for the swap just tell them who it misses or hits still, but they have to figure out both times what the effect is (or that it changed).
- As if you aren't evil by lying to the player.
  And as if they won't successfully dispute it.
  
  Good thing the DM can't be stabbed by it! How would they dispute it without metagaming? Wouldn't that be a great plot arc?
  
  Dord the Paladin trust their blind faith in the weapon, or do they consider the morality of their actions by themselves? Consequentialism vs Deontologism, essentially. The lie reinforces the blind faith to make the situation work.
  I put an ethical dilemma in front of a Paladin. I do not consider this evil.

It makes perfect sense. The paladin found the exploit.
- Suck to be neutral lol.

Without lawyers, the kingdom was unable to resolve disputes and fell into chaos.
- Although the number of disputes did fall pretty dramatically too
- All the lawyers had previously been stabbed.

To be fair, the sword kept nagging him.
"You should draw me, i bet that guy's really evil" OKAY FINE SWORD-NIMI YOU CAN EAT THAT OLD MAN
- Oh hi Nightblood. Where did Vasher go now?

I mean, that sounds very much like a paladin in unapologetic violation of one or more of their oaths.
- I mean... theyre not harming anything good so not really?
  
  But would it kill neutral innocent people?
- I could see a Vengeance Paladin justifying through divine will or whatever
  
  It does sound like Frank Castle living out that one scene in Westworld.
- Yea, blatant murder and assault isn't justifiable to most good deities or codes of ethics, even if the target pings as evil. "Oh this shopkeeper is evil? Guess he dies."
  At the least, it's highly illegal most places, so even if there aren't divine consequences there'd certainly be social ones.
  
  Yeah, even when alignment is proof enough you still need trials, and a random person's magic sword isn't exactly reliable proof in itself.
  Can it fail? Can it be tricked? Is it a magical effect, or a divine one?
  What about people who have done horrible crimes but served their sentence?

Now throw him a good character with some magic immunity that negates the effect of the weapon.

Have him stab the mayor who's evil because he's greedy and selfish and borderline abusive in trade-deals with neighboring regions but is otherwise beloved (and has rewards heaped on him) because he's so good at actually keeping order in the town and keeping their goodwill (although probably at least a little bit through some passive-aggressive blackmail). That's always fun.

Link: The Faces of Evil
- COOL, HUH?
- I wanna play that game

If one were to base their diet around moral responsibility, would eating only what the blade can cut be reasonable? Can it cut vegetables? Can animals be evil? Would training a cow to be evil in order to avoid starvation be morally justifiable?
- Training a creature to be evil so you can kill it is definitely evil.
  
  Okay but if this became common enough that every paladin had a sword that only killed evil things and they also had the restriction that they had to only eat what they killed then it would be a good thing to raise evil creatures as food sources for the paladins, even though the people doing the raising are doing an evil thing.
- A paladin whose diet consists of roast demonflesh. Hm.
  
  TONIGHT… WE DINE IN HELL! TOMORROW, THE UNDERDARK. THAT CONCLUDES OUR ANNOUNCEMENTS FOR THE DAY.

Make an evil dude who's just immune to stab wounds. Problem solved.

don't paladins have an at-will detect evil?
or did they take that out in 5e?
- They do but it's 1+charisma mod per day uses. The 5e players I know would immediately start stabbing people just to save on resources.
  
  did they change what at-will means in 5e?
  cos in 3.5 it means no usage limit, just takes a standard action
  like so

Can't find out without fucking around 😉

Mine just stood stock still staring at people for 24 seconds before starting a conversation, detecting good/evil/law/chaos. Made for some very fun roleplay.

Certified Faces of Evil moment. "This is my Smart Sword!"

See, here's my problem with that: humanity is inherently evil so everyone would be killed by such a thing.
- An human isn't humanity.
- If humanity were inherently evil, we WOULD NOT BE HERE RIGHT NOW
  
  Yet here we are, and evil we are. Case closed
  You can go ahead and waste time beleaguering the point if you want. It's not gonna change the fact that humanity is inherently evil whether you like it or not.
  If it makes you feel better, it means I am evil too. Then again, so are you. We all are. It's just the natural state of being human.

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