Dwarf Fortress ASCII graphics only rule
Dwarf Fortress ASCII graphics only rule
Dwarf Fortress ASCII graphics only rule
I know exactly how every beat of this conversation is going to go, but I'm still here for it.
I've been hearing how games are too focused on graphics since the late 1980s.
That time you remember games being all about fun? People then were complaining about how chasing visuals over gameplay was ruining games.
I know because I was there and I was complaining.
Graphics are fun and cool. I like graphics.
It all started going downhill when Nethack added color support in 1989: https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/NetHack_3.0.4#Significant_changes
For me it was the windows telnet session window adding color support. I grew up playing a MUD.
Design > graphics Also, strike the earth!
Design = graphics.
Or maybe Design(graphics).
Graphics ARE design. Barring very few exceptions, games communicate themselves visually. What the graphics look like, how they are laid out and how they convey the rules are absolutely fundamental parts of the experience-as-designed on every game, regardless of how technically complex the visuals turn out to be.
These arguments always bum me out a little, because they start from the premise that, say the people at, say, Yacht Club care less about or put less effort into what their games look like than larger devs using photorreal visuals, which should not survive looking at a single frame of their work.
Graphics are cool! I just also think the story, mechanics, and game difficulty balance should have an equal amount of consideration, which seems poorly lacking in a lot of modern AAA games. A mile wide and an inch deep is a saying for a reason.
The real point where this argument falls apart is that modern AAA games almost exclusively use TAA, which ruins graphics. I’m so sick of shadows blurring and everything looking terrible and people saying it’s next level.
I've stopped acknowledging the term AAA because I'm increasingly convinced nobody knows what they mean when they use it beyond "games that look expensive and I don't like".
I also don't think there's that many developers that don't give "story, mechanics and game difficulty balance" an equal amount of consideration, mostly because those things are typically handled by entirely different people in any production that is bigger than a skeleton crew. It's not like designers in big studios are just twiddling their thumbs waiting for the rendering engineers to finish the peach fuzz on people's cheeks.
The way people perceive opportunity cost in collaborative media is always weird to me.
Purists when an artform incorporates another artform: >:(
I'm going to be annoying for a second, but I promise to try and make it worth it: It isn't about purism or even "fun", because not all art is meant to amuse. Art is allowed to be anything, and we should treat critique of art (including games) an an exploration of what the creator was trying to do, to what extent they succeeded and how, what it makes you think of, and possible meanings. Play is merely one aspect of a game's artistic content.
The entire subject of fun in terms of game design is, artistically speaking so nascent that there is hardly any history to that field of study. We've been making up for lost time in recent decades, but the entire concept of game theory is not even a century old.
So, that was probably annoying of me. But the point I'm here to make is that "fun vs graphics" isn't really the conversation we're trying to have.
One conversation we should have is the problem that exists with how games are funded and how those financial incentives can shape the creative side in a way that might hinder what's being done with the medium. Games aren't just art, they're big business, and the conversation is taking place within the context of the tech industry, geopolitical trends, and even monetary policy. Now that the industry is so large, it often feels like creators working with big budgets are becoming risk-averse and often greedy. When traditional artists seem overly risk-averse and driven by financial incentives, the art world turns on them in a big way. Look at Anish Kapoor and vantablack.
Another conversation to have is graphics in gaming within the larger computing industry. We're at the tail end of Moore's law and the GPU market seems like it's starting to turn away from gaming towards other perceived cash cows like LLMs and generative AI. So we should not expect graphics cards to continually get better forever, or even cheaper honestly. It's been the case for decades, but the situation is dynamic.
For a long time, it seems like there has been a bad combination of forces at play in gaming: the promise of endlessly increasing computing power, and lurching shifts in monetary policy that lead initially to massive tech speculation and then periods of focusing intensely on profitability.
I think it's reasonable to predict that we're going to see smaller development budgets in gaming, increased focus on well-optimized code, a shift away from the emphasis on realism in games, or a general collapse in the "big budget" gaming industry as some or all of these fail to materialize.
Meanwhile, indie gaming has been on a hit streak. That food chain has been thriving at lower trophic levels, and no wonder. They're taking more risks, being more generous, and reaching less highly than their larger peers. It's a winning formula under tight monetary policy and the overall larger context.
I've said far too much, sorry to drop this on you.
laughs in Vampire Survivors
Love Vampire Survivors. Would be better without the Castlevania asset flippiness, but still love it.
But here's the thing, people mistake being able to make a good basic-looking game with not being able to make a good visuals-focused game.
I also love Cyberpunk, Indiana Jones, Expedition 33 and a bunch of other games that care about their visuals a LOT.
The only time this was valid was when the Sega Saturn tried to do rounded 3D objects. I swear taking a single step in “Shining the Holy Ark” took 5 seconds which wouldn’t have happened if everything had edges
I think Gouraud shading was pretty cheap back then.
I gotta say, I don't think we complained enough that gen about having every game look like a bad attempt at origami running at 15 fps.
Anybody complaining that modern games are too focused on visuals for not enough return needs to deeply rethink how we all collectively went from perfect 60fps Mega Man to whatever Mega Man Legends was.
I mean, people are still out there defending GoldenEye, and I must remind you that Doom had existed for years at that point.
Dwarf Fortress has graphics now! You don't have to install the Lazy Newb Pack! What a time to be alive
But do you still need dwarf therapist to actually see what you are doing?
Idk I never used it. I'm just playing the raw Steam install, it's come a long way
No, it's pretty understandable now. With that said, I don't think ASCII was that bad, once you spend a handful of hours in it. It's really not any different except the sprites replace characters, but if you knew what the character meant it's almost the same amount of information. The sprites can give a little more information because they can actually display clothing, hair, etc. It isn't significant though.
A way better job management subsystem was implemented that resolved at least all my personal issues.
I needed the steam version. I've been watching DF from the sidelines and wishing for it for a long time. Yes I know about the tile sets and they didn't help much.
Going through the menus was way harder in the previous version as well. Excited to see future changes. I think a big siege rework is coming up next!
Definitely how it feels sometimes talking to the gamers who literally care about graphics over everything. I care about gameplay..
You think games have to be fun?
You will play pathologic and fear and hunger until the situation improves
...and then there's the second Fear and Hunger, where my first run ended with the Woodsman because I chopped off the arm holding the giant axe instead of killing his dick, and then the dick detached and went all Alien face hugger and stunned me while he beat me up with his remaining arm.
Of course I like explaining Pathologic to people as "the game that looks at a glance like it's an FPS adjacent RPG but in which when you first get a gun you will probably immediately sell it to buy some bread". Fucking plague caused by an infected wound in a very unusual location.
Ice Pick are amazing. I'm a huge fan of The Void, where you are a soul in purgatory trying to survive, while appeasing the two other factions: brutish mutant Brothers that roam around taking all the resources, and docile naked Sisters that need your help to survive. The art style is utterly unique and the music/atmosphere is darkly beautiful. But it's a stressful resource management sim at its core.
I see both sides of the argument and generally lean on the older games are fun side, but my God, just let people enjoy what they want. Gaming eletism is so annoying and doesn't even stop people from playing new games anyways.
Get them knowledge that duenvo is an issue, not that they should be still playing super mario bros 1 or snake on a Nokia if they want to own their games.
Saving this ty
I see your point, and I don't think anyone is seriously proposing banning graphics. Realistically, this is more of a call to action to focus on fun.
Shoutout to Caves of Qud, because it wasn't mentioned yet. I've been looking for a game that comes close to ZAngband which I played in the 90s. COQ has a tileset, so it's not ASCII and I didn't like the looks at first but it's fun when you see how deep it is. Complex character creation, quests, factions, 'bosses'.. I think the world map is not randomly generated, the rest is afaik (ruins, multi-levelled lairs, most villages..).
And yet Clair Obscur Expedition 33 is both super fun and breathtakingly beautiful
It's also proof you don't need a massive team and an obscene budget to push good looks
You only really need those for massive open world projects like gta
Largely because it has such strong art direction. They really make use of the high resolution to make the humans look more human, and the non-humans look more alien
That said, if I have one criticism about the game, it's that there isn't really a lot of cohesion between character/creature designs. It's the same thing that bugged me about Stellar Blade, as opposed to something like Nier Automata or Gears of War. The nevrons don't really look like they belong in the game the way locusts do in Gears.
But I am only in Act 2. Maybe this criticism will wane as I learn more about them
I feel like the older, pixel sparse graphical style is making a comeback.
A lot of recent surprise hits were of that style:
Valheim is also a game that's low pixel count but due to sweeping landscapes and amazing lighting is gorgeous.
Cannot recommend valhiem enough. Don't let anyone convince you to do a no portal run though. Traveling is a big component to the game but doing no portal runs just makes traveling such a burden and I feel takes the magic out of it.
I wish I could get my friends to do another run but they are all waiting for the deep north update (the final one AFAIK).
Growing up, one of my best friends parents set us up with a terminal MUD connection. Basically an old school, text based only MMO. You had to type in your commands, "look north", "walk east", "attack
<enemy name>
". I was able to make a Sayian character, walk around town and Kamehameha my foes. I recall finding Smurf village and getting killed many times by Papa Smurf.I wish I remembered what server it was or if any even exist any more.
I remember on igorMUD we had inter Igor ballistic aardvarks
MUDs and MOOs were quite fun. I played at University as I didn't have internet at home then, only BBSes
I played a MUD based around the combat school in Ender's Game. That was amazing to my 2002 brain.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2134320/ENA_Dream_BBQ/
Just wish it was a bit longer, but for the price of free I can't complain. I suggest going in blind and high if that's your thing.
Graphics are cool, but I'd rather prefer a fun game over a good looking game
The only roguelike I play is Rogue.
You should check out Wazhack. Its surprisingly deep
OK, but... Does anyone have recommendations for obscure text-based games? Sounds rad tbh
I was going to recommend The Great Machine: A Fragment by Jonas Kyratzes (writer for The Eternal Cylinder and The Talos Principle, if you’ve heard of those), but it looks like it’s not on his website anymore :( It’s probably been close to 20 years since I played it, but I remember enjoying it. It’s about being a soldier in a war.
If you count ASCII graphics as text-based games you could play CDDA. Better requirement is games that could be played over an SSH session.
Back in my BBS days I enjoyed Trade Wars quite a bit.
Does Radical Dreamers count, or not obscure enough?
I recommend NetHack
You can try any of the still running MUDs, multiple user dungeon
Do visual novels count? They are text-based with images added on top.
Also check over at !retrogaming@lemmy.world
I'm in the middle of my first playthrough of Morrowind right now. Maybe I should go find a mod that makes the graphics worse. Maybe one that limits the resolution to 480p and makes everything monochrome wireframe with a viewing distance of just two or three meters.
That wasn’t the original experience on Xbox? 😜
480p and 3 meter draw distance definitely was, I can tell you that much.
I remember getting on PC and installing the Longer Draw Distance mod for the first time, and discovering that you could throw a rock farther than the distance between Seyda Neen and Pelagiad. The illusion of distance was only preserved by the close draw range and the fact that you walk at half the speed of smell at level one.
OG Xbox could barely run morrowwind. The load times were so long because the game had a memory leak or something and the Xbox had to be "rebooted" during the load screens sometimes.
There actually was a famous mod for an Elder Scrolls game that made it look worse: Oldblivion for Oblivion. The game had high system requirements for the time, and the mod did things like removing the 3D foliage/grass so crappy GPUs could run the game.
I find it more irritating when people post two screenshots to make the argument: This picture looks better than this picture, therefore the graphics in this game are better than in this game, therefore this game is better than this game. The most complex form of media to date is luckily very easy to compare.
First, I can't afford a new computer or even a new graphics card. All these "gaming on a budget" type things are all priced in USD, and I'm in Canada after conversion and the Canada tax, local shops are selling it for a lot more.... I can only imagine that going up with the tariffs.
Second, graphics ain't shit. Look at some of the most popular games around and some of them have the "worst" graphics. I don't mean to pick on any game in specific, but I'll mention two notable examples: the first is Minecraft. Square voxels and pretty basic visuals all around. Easily one of the most popular titles of all time. I don't play it, but I get it. The other example I want to point to is schedule I. Honestly the graphics in the game, when compared to the nearly realistic content that games like assassin's Creed has, and it's basically trash by comparison. The game is huge and hugely popular. The graphics, or lack thereof, is not a detractor from how fun the game is.
Don't get me wrong. High graphics can contribute to a good game; and therein lies the problem. You need to have a good game that you can apply the graphics to, in order for it to be valuable. If you take away the graphics and replace the visuals with something far more basic, and the game loses its appeal, your game sucks. Fix that first, then try again.
I have a pretty massive collection of steam titles that I'm planning to play as things start to devolve into higher and higher specs for basically no gains. Like ray tracing, it's cool, looks good... But I don't need it to have fun in a game. I usually turn it off because it compromises performance for basically no real gain. Sure, shadows look a bit more shit, and lights aren't as glowy, but I don't care about that. I just want to play. Why is RT a requirement for some games now? The hell?
Anyways. High graphics are better in more cinematic games, but publishers have gotten so obsessed with making cinematic content that they forgot to include a game with it.
Give me more substance, more character development, more scenes, not just action.
I never understood the point of realistic (or heavily stylized) graphics. Maybe it's just me, but after about 5 minutes of "wow" my brain's visual processor starts treating it as anything else, whether it's Doom 2, Borderlands 2, or Stalker 2.
Doom 2? From 1994?
I should play that game again
I would agree that schedule 1 has very high graphics.
The graphics on this comic are rough 😜
Elin is the game you're looking for.
It's not ascii... but it is very ADOM influenced. And very japanese.
ADOM <3
Haven't heard that name in a while
Graphism allows to convey story and emotion much clearer. Imagine playing baldurs gate 3 with gta4 stiff low poly faces. The character would be much less expressive and thus emotions become harder to convey.
My person in Chrysler, BG 2 existed and was just as expressive with just voice and still pictures. And half the lines weren't even voiced.
I think that had more to do with the whole eastern-bloc trope.
San Andreas is even older and the story comes across great thanks to voice acting and good story telling.
I have some great memories playing dwarf fortress. It was a lot of effort but the payoff was fantastic. I don't know if I can bring myself to spent that much energy on a game again.
People want to be proud of their art
Making hair is a lot easier now than before, especially because your computer can handle more than 1000 faces
Can't really say this about Dwarf Fortress anymore
There is a mod to turn it back to ascii tiles.
Dwarf Fortress actually always had tile graphics. It's just that the default tile set used to look like ASCII.
Hey its still confusing as fuck. It just let's my smooth caveman brain kinda understand what's happening.
There was no reason for that prison bread to be so amazing in LAD
it is a mix, i won't play minecraft with fortnite like graphics, i love to play vampire survivors because its a dopamine bomb. it really depends on the situation. But id play the GTA games for the open world mechanics and graphics. you can't really make a great point out of this.