Are We All Becoming More Hostile Online?

No, fuck off, how very dare you suggest such a thing you horrid bastard you, just you wait, I’m going to punch you in the elbow and knock over your second-favourite house plant for insinuating such lies
- Hey. You don't talkt to op like this you fucking degenerate piece of shit, we're all being nice to each other!
  
  I've blocked both of you idiots

Here's the thing.
The last 10 years have proven that organized online hostility is VERY EFFECTIVE at dictating public opinion.
That's how we got the new fascist movements. Trump and the like. Because right wing hostility and bigotry went not only unchecked institutionally but unchallenged socially.
No solution has emerged for that from an institutional level.
So yeah, my socialist ass is fighting back. I'll be damned if I'm going to spend the rest of my life under these fucking wastes of flesh and their bullshit antiquated opinions. I'm done taking it and I'm done tolerating it. Fuck every last republican and homophobe and transphobe and complicit liberal. All of them. And wouldn't you know it, little by little they're backing down when we stand up to them like the cowards they are.
Yes, I am deliberately far more hostile online, because it WORKS. And clearly nobody with institutional control cares enough to try anything else.
- There's a war going on.
  A war of ideas.
- The only problem is that you guys call everyone a transphone or homophobe or liberal or whatever, all the time. Its actually a bit funny because you dont see the forest for the trees. Everyone has to think exactly the same or they are THE ENEMY and need to be keyboard warriored into compliance with right-think :)
  With age comes a bit more wisdom (ok maybe not for Trump). If you have calm discussions and listen, you will absolutely 100% see that most people are actually quite alright. Even if they dont like trans people, they will eventuelly get there, by having discussions and chats and seeing them in the real world.
  I remember how this worked in Sweden where I live. At first, everyone was super racist. We had like 3 black people in school and they were of course bullied and thought of as very strange. This was in 1985 or something.
  Now, decades later, its seen as strange if you dont have black people at a job, or see them everywhere. Because its normal.
  The same thing will happen with trans people but you dont have to sit and hate people online to get there. It will happen as more trans people come out and join everyone else at work and in the cities, just normally.
  I have seen it. So just relax guys. Dont hate.
  
  Conformity of thought, belief, or action isn't the problem. The oroblem is treating some people or groups as less than human and not deserving of equal rights and opportunities.
  
  Counterpoint: call out bigotry or fuck off
  
  Apart from anything else, spending all that energy resisting change that's coming anyway must be exhausting. It's no wonder they're so cranky.
  
  I remember how this worked in Sweden where I live
  Yeah, things don't work that way everywhere.
  We tried being nice in America. It got us here.
  You just go back to enjoying your ivory tower. We have actual problems here and your high road is not the solution.
  
  The problem is these are the people who won’t get there, plus they’re harming a lot of people in the meantime.
  Codger mode ….
  Back when I was a wee young’un, I lived in a small town in a rural area. Republicans ideals made sense (whose not to like fiscal prudence), we read about the crime ridden horrors of big cities, read about the inbred fear of education down south, read about drugs destroying peoples lives, read about welfare queens, read about illegal immigrants and crime. We “weren’t racist” but those dark skin people were violent criminals. Products of our environments I guess.
  Like you, I grew up. As I was exposed to a larger variety of people, I discovered they were people. As I saw more people in situations outside their control, I developed more empathy. As I got to know people with different preferences than mine, I learned their preferences didn’t do me any harm. Now decades later, it’s hard to understand the fear, oppression, racism, hatred, and it’s impossible to understand the unethical inconsistent self serving authoritarians that Republicans have become. I’ve seen it too. I apologize to everyone I hurt because it took years for me to grow into a better human being.
  The problem is these are the people who never grew out of it. They’re the people who saw their friends and family expand their horizons, but retreated ever deeper into their holes. Theyre the people who saw progress and desperately yearned for a mythical past that never was. They’re the people who saw everyone else growing out of their limitations, and turned to extremism. They are not joining everyone else but have turned their backs and headed the other directions. They are the diehards wallowing in their misery who don’t care about anyone else’s misery. They are the righteous who have lost their way, cloaking their hatred, spite and corruption is self-righteous desperation. They are the self-centered stealing from society and stealing from the future. They are the limited viewpoint building ever higher walls against fear of the outside. They won’t change.
  
  If you have calm discussions and listen, you will absolutely 100% see that most people are actually quite alright. Even if they dont like trans people, they will eventuelly get there, by having discussions and chats and seeing them in the real world.
  Respectfully, you have no idea what you're talking about. I live in Texas and I am surrounded by the conservative mindset. There is a chittering madness about these people that causes them to frenzy any time something triggers them as being "woke" or "trans" or in any way challenging to their narrow world-view. They cannot be reasoned with, I have tried far too long with no effect. Their beliefs are couched in white christonationalism and the stupid masses having their stupid beliefs vindicated by bad actors in positions of power.
  These people do not feel that anyone unlike them has the right to live the way they want. They WANT to strip trans people of their rights. Pleading for empathy has fallen on empty ears and the ONLY thing that is providing any clarity to these morons is when they themselves are hurt by the stupidity they have summoned. The only time I have heard anyone from the conservative side second guess their vote is when it started to impact them personally. Not when billionaires were immediately given tax cuts, not when children were forcibly taken from their parents, not when first amendment rights violations are being codified into law, not when people have literally been vanished off the streets. None of it matters to them.

I’ve always been a terse asshole.
- Your mother is a hamster. >:(
  
  At least my father doesn't smell like elderberries
  
  No you

Fuck you!

Who the fuck says I'm hostile ? Fuck you

“Why are online discussions about politics more hostile than offline discussions?
A popular answer argues that human psychology is tailored for face-to-face interaction and people’s behavior therefore changes for the worse in impersonal online discussions…
Across eight studies, leveraging cross-national surveys and behavioral experiments (total N = 8,434), we test the mismatch hypothesis but only find evidence for limited selection effects.
Instead, hostile political discussions are the result of status-driven individuals who are drawn to politics and are equally hostile both online and offline.
Finally, we offer initial evidence that online discussions feel more hostile, in part, because the behavior of such individuals is more visible online than offline.”
This fits with our understanding of personality disorders, which is that they are a small percentage of our society—around 10.5 percent, according to the recent DSM-5-TR.3
I try to avoid all politics online because it's all raging and it's honestly depressing that 10.5% can dominate a space like that.
- Then you probably won't like the thought that an even smaller percentage of people who think they need to get ever richer and control ever more aspects of ever more people's lives are basically ruining our offline world.
  
  I would prefer a star trek utopia, that's for sure.

fuck no we aren't.
anyone who says otherwise can fight me.
- And I'm pissed that you got to this comment first!
  
  Yeah fuck that person

IMO, the reason is because scientists haven't found a way to punch someone in their face over the internet yet.
- I've long thought that phones needed a taze button. Every telephone in the world should have the power to deliver a high power electric shock to the user, and the phone network should only allow the callee to taze the caller. So if you call someone, the person you have called can taze you.
  I don't see any problem with the telephone network that can't be solved by putting a 30,000 volt potential across the caller's jaw. Make it work on call bots too, if a computer automatically calls you and you don't want it to, put Shearon Harris on the line. Modern problems require 2nd Amendment solutions, and if you elect me as your president in 2028 it is these policies that I shall energetically enact.
  
  I like to carry an air horn for when scammers and other nuisances call.
- They send SWAT teams to their houses, which is pretty close.
  
  It doesn't quite have the same satisfying crunch though...

The full study for those interested: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/354152560_The_Psychology_of_Online_Political_Hostility_A_Comprehensive_Cross-National_Test_of_the_Mismatch_Hypothesis

Back in the day I just assumed everyone was lying. Or trying to get people worked up, and we called them trolls.
Learning how to ignore the trolls, and not having trust for strangers on the internet, coupled with the ability to basically not care what random people said is a lost art.
Somehow people forgot to give other the people this memo, including the "you don't fucking join social networks as your self". Anonymity makes this all work.
Eternal September newbies just didn't get it.
- One of the differences these days is that marginalized groups are having their existences threatened… and not hollow threats, but meaningful ones that have had, and continue to have, very real consequences in the form of policies, hate crimes, etc.
  That is legitimate, very real violence, and it results in very understandable hostility. And then those perpetuating, supporting, and celebrating the violence pretend they are victims when people treat them like the orcs they are.
  “Why are you being so divisive?” “You’re not very TOLERANT of different opinions, are you?” “Why are you so angry all the time, snowflakes?”
  Violent bullies need to be put in their place, and with more than just “hostility on the internet”.
  
  People who enploy hate speech need to have their access to internet revoked, I feel. Though I wonder if that won't open up all sorts of nasty backdoors...
- Hear, hear! I miss the days when trolling used to mean piss take. If someone is trolling, troll them back!
  Somehow people forgot to give other the people this memo, including the "you don't fucking join social networks as your self". Anonymity makes this all work.
  I do get into political debates, but I don't overshare my real info and I certainly don't ban anyone for disagreeing with me. I find it cringe if anyone bans someone for disagreement to maintain "mental health". Unless someone is stalking or making a calculated harrasment on the person online, sure ban or report the troll, but banning someone because the person does not have a good response shows pettiness and immaturity.
  
  Yeah the block and ban thing these days is really weird.
  If someone is harassing you, then I guess it makes sense. But otherwise why do people do that?

No I just hate you all equally
- Man, this is sacred. This should be the first line in Intro to Internet.
- Always have, always will.

I have. I honestly try not to be. There's just so many uncaring shits online. It makes me sick to think of how fucked up these trolls are to relish causing others distress. Then I become a dick
I'm trying to be better
- There’s just so many uncaring shits online.
  I wonder how much "hate" on the internet is this... but the reality is that is how you "see" them in your head rather than what they're actually saying/believe. A lot of negative responses to some of the things I say is a strawman of what I actually believe/said.
  
  Someone hacked a roomba last year to yell the N word at people on a mic.
  The WORLD has become more hateful, it is not simply perception.
  
  Yeah see, I don't buy that. I can say things in a less than PC way, but it takes tow to argue. If I don't make an effort to be understood, I can't be pissed when I'm not
  And since I can't force others do that, I can only do what I can
  We are all responsible for what we say , good and bad
  But thank you for sharing, sincerely
- I feel like I'm fighting a one-person crusade every time I respond politely to some jerk online. Last night I couldn't sleep because some rando on the internet said mean things. Why are humans like this? Why can't we just be nice? Sometimes I feel like we deserve to go extinct.
  
  Because everyone wants to be popular. Most people don't have the tools to be popular through kindness so they simply act like the other orcs instead.

No, we're just done with things like the orange man nazis, advertising, paywalls, borders, illegal for thee but not for me billionaires.
Bit once that's fixed we'll go back to clicking on links to help prince Abu Abowah of Nigeria to settle his bank account once and for all.

Seems to be a positive trend happening. Instead of just nothing but toxic trolls. People are starting to push back on the mindless bullshit that is ruining the world.
- Agreed, the toxic assholes have been here since the beginning, everyone else is just finally pushing back.

- yea, f_ck' em

IMO online commenters are increasingly showing pathological binary thinking - the attitude that there are exactly two sides to every issue - the Right one and the Wrong one. Questioning ANY aspect of the Right one means you're obviously a hardcore supporter of EVERY aspect of the Wrong one. You're either morally and ethically pure or your character is a wretched hive of scum and villainy. To me it's a really paradoxical way of thinking about diversity and acceptance - more like we're supposed to either wholeheartedly embrace people or despise them.
- It's not new, it happened a lot on Reddit, and I get a bit of that in real life too.
  People are tribalist, and that sucks.
  For example, if you read Lemmy comments without any real world experience, you'd think everyone who voted for Trump hates brown people and wants poor people to die. But I have family and close friends who voted for that douchebag, and they are good people, they just thought he's a better option (and they generally don't follow politics too much). And I don't blame them, Harris had a crappy campaign, basically promising the same bad policies Biden had, and Clinton before her was worse. Why should they be interested in politics if we keep getting poor options?
  People aren't black and white. Yet we caricaturize them as such.
- Yeah. I see a surprising amount of it on Lemmy. It is behavior I'm used to seeing from the far right, Qanon, and other brainwashed vectors. I watched the Russians propagandize the right on Reddit.
  These, however, are nominal leftists engaging in stark black and white thinking. I'm not sure if they're state level shills, bots, really believe it and are brainwashed tankies, or true believers living in China or similar. Maybe it's dumb kids being taken in by propaganda.
  
  Calling the binary thinkers leftists or shills of some other thing is just another form of simplistic binary thinking - put a black hat on them and boom, you're done. I think this is a lot of people's way of dealing with the constant firehose of information we think we have to process because it's in our endless feeds. We have an always full inbox, and some of us deal with that by processing each item as fast as possible, using minimal thought to tell ourselves we've got it figured out so we can swipe on it and scroll on to the next issue. This is leading to a pattern of superficial snap judgements, stereotyping, and ultimately various forms of social bigotry.
  
  I think it's more dumb kids than anything.
  I try to correct it where I can because hopefully a handful will reconsider their stance and grow as a person, but they certainly won't admit to it.
- This is usually how people treat fascists. Not sure what’s surprising about it

.

Yes, and it's a good thing. The Paradox of Tolerance. If we want a world where people are free to choose and believe and live unique and different lives, we cannot stand by and do nothing while intolerant assholes live their lives.

What a terrible headline. All of us? No. Next.

I go more for 'tiresomely cynical', but whatever.

I’ve been facing a lot more personal harassment over disagreements on the internet that should never lead to that level of harassment. Like taking photos of me from my profile, photoshopping them, sharing them labeled as a pedophile because of my appearance, and Last weekend I had an angry racist threaten to dox me to my employer that I— called out racism?— trying to get me fired.
I feel like the paid trolls have gotten really aggressive since the election.
- Why are you posting photos of yourself or about your workplace online? First mistake
  
  They take my profile picture. I don’t post about my job anywhere and it’s not on any of my profiles because I don’t associate with that place when I’m not there. I honestly don’t know how they found out where I work.

This fits with our understanding of personality disorders, which is that they are a small percentage of our society—around 10.5 percent, according to the recent DSM-5-TR.3
Idk, I consider 10% to be pretty high. If you add in selection bias, you could get an actual majority in a community having personality disorders just because the non-jerks largely self-select themselves out.
That said, I still think the conclusions here shouldn't be taken at face value. The data was from surveys, and while I haven't read their methodology, I would certainly hesitate to accept results of a survey for something like this (and for <10k responses). I personally find I'm more confrontational online, though I hope I'm generally still way more respectful than your common jerk.
The results are certainly interesting though.

No fucking shit we are. How did you crack that nut, Einstein?

yes and i don’t think it’s limited to politics either.

It depends on what communities you subscribe to. You’re not going to get much hostility in a gardening sub, but you will get it in political sub. With that said, my reddit score is very polite. Always has been. My secret is being aware of my emotions and not responding when I’m being egged.
- Did you even check to see if that ivy you planted is invasive? You're probably ruining your local ecosystem you piece of shit.
  Also what kind of basic bitch plants basic Roma tomatoes? Garbage choice, when Purple Cherokee are so much better.
  
  Rofl

Yes. Next question, you SOB!

I think there are two sides to this. Yes, online aggression has probably peaked in recent years with the rise of worldwide pro far-right misinformation campaigns, no argument there. They were specifically targeted at the people more vulnerable to buy into hate speech propaganda.
On the other hand, I have personally noticed more constructive discussions, even after I deleted most of my anti-social media accounts and substantialy decreased my usage of Internet forums in general. It seems there's some positive trend in the middle of all that.
- Not my experience. Just try to post some slightly unpopular opinion and good luck with the virtue signaling, whatever the topic is, and which is mostly done for fake internet points, I bet.
  
  “Virtue signaling”
  Hmmm that’s telling language.

Some people deliberately come to social media for fighting. I probably used to. Maybe on occasion when I'm feeling cranky I will be less diplomatic than I really want to be.
But I find two things actually help:
I'm not friends/following anyone I know in real life. That helps with anonymity in case I do run afoul of someone who bears a grudge, but also when someone posts aggravating bullshit, it's not someone I care about. Which leads to...
I'm merciless about blocking anyone and anything that I can't engage with fruitfully. Attention is a limited resource and I don't want to spend it all on negativity. I'm happy to hold genial conversations with folks I disagree with, but if interacting with them becomes tedious, stressful, or annoying I just bin them. Hell, if someone is a big enough prick to someone else I block them. If someone is in every thread harping on some agenda, gone.
Bluesky has a feature to mute keywords for a set period. If I need a break from news about Gaza, Trump, some trending drama, sports (like the World Cup), or just want to avoid spoilers, I mute the topic for a while.
Together, these tools make social media much less negative for me. It usually keeps me from doom scrolling or taking the rage bait.
And when I’m emotionally charged or unclear, I sometimes draft my comments elsewhere before posting. I let it sit for a bit, and if I can’t say what I mean with the tone and clarity I want, I just don’t post. Maybe 30% of my comments get binned—some after spending an hour or more working on them.
In short, I heavily curate my social interactions—both incoming and outgoing—to reduce stress and negativity. As a result, social media today is far more pleasant than it was ten years ago.
- BlueSky is genuinely one of the least toxic socials I've had in a while. I can agree to disagree there on normal issues like whether UBI should be given in a lump sum, weekly, monthly- it's not fucking assholes "debating" if aliens built the pyramids and whether we should drink our own pee or if good faith arguments are important or if it's "natural" to be attracted to 14yr old girls as an adult man (all topics I've seen on Lemmy).
  
  That's one of those things where I'm happiest just not seeing or being part of that conversation. Those are unserious people and it's pointless to pretend you can have a serious conversation about those things. And even if you could, what is the value to me to wade into the nuance of when it's okay to find someone attractive when frankly it wouldn't matter—if they didn't act like aggressive horny assholes to anyone. I have 13 and 15 year old daughters. I don't really care who finds them attractive, but I do care who disrespects them, and that's not going to change when they turn 18, so again that conversation doesn't need my presence at all.
  I'll agree that Bluesky is minimally toxic, but I also haven't gotten a whiff of those kinds of conversations here on Lemmy, either. The most contentious ones were in the run-up to the elections and that's just a tense time for everyone. And it's hard to let opinions we vehemently disagree with run rampant when the consequences for getting shit wrong are... well... gestures at everything.
  
  or if it’s “natural” to be attracted to 14yr old girls as an adult man (all topics I’ve seen on Lemmy)
  Wait, what?

I am hostile to those that relish in cruelty to others. To those that engage in cringe culture, or bully others for just wanting to live their lives without harming anyone.
I'll accept people getting heated and passionate, but I will never accept cruelty, or worse: self-righteous cruelty. Believing someone needs to be 'punished' for some slight and so anything is justified against them.
Basically KiwiFarms and the whole lolcow industrial complex can go fuck themselves.

Meet Anon.

Age group...

Nope. Its the same as it ever way.
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/greater-internet-fuckwad-theory

TL;DR: It's the .mls' fault. They're assholes all the time, but we don't see them offline because they don't have jobs
- Fuck .ml, but this is true everywhere. A lot of content and discussion is produced by the terminally online, and they are pretty much by definition not happy, well-adjusted people.

Not according to my Reddit user score and perhaps Lenny’s if there is one. Have not looked yet. So not all. I really just like the add to the discussion and help others where I can.

Yes. It is longer than just now though.

Some of the earliest websites were shock sites full of gore and horrific porn. The rest were just regular porn and chatroom degeneracy incubators. The internet was a hostile entity from the outset.

The special group of people providing negativity are probably bots anyway.

Try pitchforks

Jonathan Haidt recently wrote in The Atlantic:
Ok but fr tho fuck Jonathan Haidt.
Haidt was JAQing off about trans people in the exact way that the Onion called out and satirized hours after their article was published. He's a "centrist" who seems to exclusively punch left, and he's just whining about getting called out with legitimate criticism.
He also got deez nuts'd iirc lol.
Edit: Shit, I had him confused with another Atlantic writer, Jonathan Chait. My bad. Haidt is also a left-punching transphobic "centrist" tho.
- Jesus christ, it's like you read the headline and desperately wanted to provide supporting evidence.
  Next time? Just for like 1 second?
  Imagine that other people don't give a shit about you blasting your toxicity at the world. Maybe the world would actually be a better place if assholes like you shut up some times.
  BTW, this has absolutely nothing to do with trans rights, this is just you personally acting like every other .ml out there.
  
  Jesus christ, it’s like you read the headline and desperately wanted to provide supporting evidence.
  Well, yes. First off because it's funny. Several other people in the thread thought so and made the same joke.
  But also, yes, because I despise civility fetishism, and I also despise Haidt for being a transphobic shitlib. And obviously, the two are connected, the reason Haidt is whining about civility is that he got bullied on Twitter for his transphobia and he wants to be able to shit on trans people without suffering any kind of social reprecussions.
  It's funny how you baselessly assert "this has absolutely nothing to do with trans rights" as if just saying it somehow makes it true, like some kind of magic spell. I wonder, would you say the same thing if it was a more prominent transphobe like JK Rowling calling out hostility in internet discourse? What if it was someone like, say, Charlie Kirk, or even Richard Spencer? Are you a true civility fetishist who takes issue with bullying bigots, or is it that you're only ok with bigotry when it's directed towards trans people? Idk, seems worth investigating.
  But, you know, maybe civility fetishism isn't so bad. Maybe it's me who's wrong, I'm just a crazy radical, and I need to be more like MLK.
  First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councillor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically feels that he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time; and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."
  Huh, kinda seems like he saw tension disrupting the peace as being necessary towards pushing towards justice in equality in an unjust status quo. But maybe MLK is too radical too. You know who I need to be more like? Jesus. That's right, I'm turning over a new leaf and I've decided to be more Christlike.
  Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.
  Huh. Kinda seems like even Jesus agreed that social change necessarily involved creating conflict, or bringing conflicts to the forefront, in order to address injustice.
  But ok, let's ignore them (maybe the world would just be a better place if assholes like them would shut up some times and stop blasting their toxicity all over the world) and look at the actual, present day reality. When exactly was internet discourse supposedly more civil? Let's compare to, say, 10 years ago, 2015. Before #MeToo so you don't have to worry about women calling people out for sexual assault and causing division, but it's also in the middle of Gamergate, so you know, really not a great time to be a woman on the internet, but I guess if you were a cishet white man, things were pretty peaceful and harmonious. You also didn't have a bunch of people calling out the bombs going to the Middle East, of course, we were still bombing civilians en masse, but I guess if you were a cishet white man, things were pretty peaceful and harmonious.
  You know when discourse was really at it's peak? The 1950's. Before all these radicals started calling for civil rights or spreading division against things like bombing Vietnam or Korea, just an all around wonderful time, a Leave it to Beaver paradise, you know, just so long as you're a cishet white man.
  At some point, obviously, you have to draw the line. And I've simply drawn it a little bit further than you have.
- Agreed, haidt is a hack

Theres so much pedophilia, wanton violence, racism, misogyny, homophobia, ableism, transphobia... fuck all these people. May they never find peace or happiness. We owe no one politeness.