2d ago

Europe will need thousands more tanks and troops to mount a credible military defence without the US

theconversation.com Europe will need thousands more tanks and troops to mount a credible military defence without the US

Europe depends heavily on US and Nato military support for its defence.

A credible European deterrent – one that could prevent, for instance, a rapid Russian incursion in the Baltics – would need a minimum of 1,400 tanks, 2,000 infantry fighting vehicles, and 700 artillery pieces. This is more combat power than currently exists in the combined French, German, Italian, and British land forces.

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This article is stupid. The EU has already been a military union since forever under the CSDF. There is little doubt that the UK would pitch in as well.

It really doesn't appear that Russia is able to mount a tank offensive anywhere after all their losses in Ukraine

What Russia has proven with Ukraine is that they are a paper tiger. They've spent so long trying to build this image that they are second only to the US in military might, but then they began scraping their barrels to deploy troops to Ukraine. I think the EU could eradicate the Russian government with just the troops we have today, and then some.
However, where Russia's strength lies is their control and manipulation of information. Russian agents all over are funding and supporting political parties that destabilize the country they're in, removing them from the fight before they begin. Their greatest victory in that is the US. We see there exactly what Russia wants for the EU. That's where we need to up our defenses.
- We don't attack Russia because Putler is a tiny bitch that would choose to destroy the world over losing.

I mean...Russia has the second strongest military inside of Russia. I think they'll be fine if they want to go ahead and kick in the door.

TBH, this was one of the things the GOP has kind of right, but as is their way they go about it in all the wrong ways. Europe has relied on US troop presence since WWII, and it’s allowed them to find a balance between high-ish taxes and strong social safety nets. In the past couple decades, as things have gotten more expensive, cracks have formed in this arrangement. Now they need to actually meet their NATO commitments, and keep the people happy by maintaining the safety nets without raising taxes. Good luck with that! Oh, and they also have to do all of this with the growing popularity of far right nationalist movements across the continent! Good times are ahead for all!
EDIT: Sorry if I gave the impression that I think the US will benefit in any way from this arrangement. We are absolutely abdicating our place on the world stage by doing this. I was only talking about the European side of this. Continuing to see the US as a reliable ally is a lost cause, and any international leaders who don't see this are in danger of a very rude awakening. Trump and his cronies have shown that they don't value allies at all - only unceasing loyalty, and even that doesn't guarantee anything. That demand devalues the sovereignty of the nations to whom they think they will be able to dictate terms! I fear the old saying "It takes many good deeds to build a good reputation, and only one bad one to lose it." will haunt the US for more than a generation (not to say that all the US has done was good, but a lot of good was done). And to be clear, when I say "the US" I mean the entirety of the US. I never voted for Trump, but I'm included in that. Our voters and many/most of our leaders simply can no longer be counted on as allies by other free and democratic countries. At this point, I'm not even really looking forward to the midterm elections.
- Yes and no. The US chose to project its power around the world after WW2. It used that military power and umbrella protection to shape free trade deals, and preferential deals for US interests.
  From a US perspective whats happening is the destruction of something extremely powerful to the US interests. US power and influence will be massively diminished in an era when China is on the rise.
  Europe will be able to afford to go to 3% of GDP on military spending. It'll be painful in the short term but worth it for Europe as it will give them independence. Its not a threat to European tax and spending - that remains its aging population. Increased military spending will be a marginal problem.
  Trumps destruction of US dominion is going to reduce their influence and power on the global stage. Even if the Americans elect an outward looking president next, Europe and other NATO allies can no longer rely on American promises as Trump has shown how quickly american orthodoxy can be undone.
  The US spends 3.4% of its GDP on its military and for that it got an extraordinary amount of influence and power. The US will continue spending that much but will now be getting much less value for its money.
  
  And don't forget, after Trump alienating every ally, Europe will probably spend that money in Europe and not in the US. So yes, we will spend more money, but we will gain in taxes and growth.
  I really don't see the US as the winner in anything here.
  
  @BananaTrifleViolin@lemmy.world
  What I find ironic, if the EU countries have as many soldier's under arms as Wikipedia states, then they don't need much more manpower. Look at the thread on worldnews where this is discussed. My comments were removed because I stated as much as this article premise. LOL!
  @d00phy@lemmy.world

Oh no! The russians are coming! Oh no! And this time it's fo real, I swear bro they're actually coming this time bro trust me, I'm telling you bro they're coming for real and we gotta put all of our money in the militaries bro, I swear bro remain scared bro, the russians are coming bro
- @narr1@lemmy.ml I agree the Russian's have no interest in fighting the EU. It's just crazy how the EU elites are behaving. It's all a strawman. Even the American's realize this, the EU has nothing whatsoever that Russia needs.
  
  Well, we do have something of a global presence still. And also money and manpower, that any good capitalist pig like Putin realizes he must have. I'm just disgusted by this fucking fearmongering. The best thing you can do as an insignificant worker for the lords with all the money is to start fearing whatever it is that you are told to fear, and remain in that fear forever. That keeps you obedient. And when the population on both sides are fearful enough the lords with all the money will agree to a war, so that the cycle of war and fear and exploitation of the working class will continue again, and the command over the lives of the working class will never be in the hands of the working class people. And the lords with all the money will remain to be the lords with all the money. And nothing will ever change.

Hopefully i die before the next stupid completely useless world war humans want to have, in their pea sized brains.

The original source:
https://www.bruegel.org/analysis/defending-europe-without-us-first-estimates-what-needed
The context is about member states matching the lost military power from the US, without implementing an EU army.
- @jlh@lemmy.jlh.name Nah, you're trying to redefine the narrative. It won't work, people are wising up to your B$! Wikipedia is wrong Europe doesn't have the troop strength, and even if they did , would have nothing to fight with! Deluded... Perhaps you should visit a psychiatrist. LMAO
  
  Europe easily has the troop strength, we have in peacetime 3-4 times Russia's capacity at wartime. Where it's lacking is special strategic capabilities like AWACS planes, strategic bombers and satellites.

You misspelled "against" (as opposed to without)

Good! I’m a US citizen who was raised in US military bases in foreign countries. Allies of the USA need to spend a lot more on their military.
USA people don’t realize that military spending doubly impacts society. Not only did your tax money go to getting a new bomber airplane that a civilian has no use for but the energy and effort that might have been used to create improved railway infrastructure (for example) never happened. After enough generations in relative isolation from other global societies, the populace doesn’t even realize what they are missing out on.

Yep...they are fucked

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