Pretending not to pick a side IS picking a side
ID: photo of Martin Luther King Jr. waving at the crowd during the March on Washington, on it is his quote: "He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."
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Does this include not voting because one is a single issue voter?
Edit: lmao, yall will really say whatever to justify your decision to make things worse.
lmao, y'all will really say whatever to justify your decision to bitch about people who didn't vote
Tell ya what: whine about the people who actually did something to vote the guy in or those of us who actually have functioning brains will call you out as the stupid and pathetic authoritarian you are
Just tell me you dont understand the trolley problem.
Just admit you want to blame the people not to blame here because you can't actually do anything about those who are actually at fault
Absolutely. Non-voters and "protest" voters chose not to oppose a known fascist. Their refusal to strategically use their voice has led to increased suffering of minorities, LGBTQ+, and likely an end to any semblance of US democracy.
Not to mention that it led directly to a worsening of the genocide they were claiming to care about.
Yeah, well, they've done it, 95 million Americans didn't vote. Now what?
Are we gonna point the finger at them, lay the blame at their feet, and feel superior because WE VOTED, while the oligarchs and fascists loot our treasury and put our minority and LGBTQ+ brothers and sisters you seem to care so much about in camps? Or are we gonna go and fight the good fight like the people out in LA yesterday?
Are we gonna point the finger at them, lay the blame at their feet,
Absolutely.
If those 95 million would've voted together for Mike the local crackhead, Mike would've won the popular vote with about 20 million votes to spare... I don't know, seems stupid to me to just go on the Internet to complain and then not use one of the only tools you have in a democracy?
I understand that going out voting is "accepting the system" but that is the only legal way to bring about change. If you don't want to support the system that's fine, work to dismantle it, take the fight to them. But just staying at home, doing nothing and then saying "I told you so" is just dumb.
Not only this but, if those non-voters organized and taken action in the last half-century, they would have been able to move the Overton to the Left, instead of the unending Right-ward crawl that we've been seeing. That could have prevented the likes of Clinton and Thatcher and erosion of workers' rights.
I understand your point, but as you said:
But just staying at home, doing nothing and then saying "I told you so" is just dumb.
There are people WHO VOTED who are doing this, because it's "not their responsibility" anymore.
There are people WHO VOTED who are doing this, because it's "not their responsibility" anymore.
There are a lot of people like this, they did the bare minimum and feel like that's enough, I mean at least it's something? Still far from enough, I agree with that.
In these times I often think about the Berthold Brecht poem "Wer Zuhause bleibt"-"Whoever stays at home".
Wer zu Hause bleibt, wenn der Kampf beginnt Und lässt andere kämpfen für seine Sache Der muss sich vorsehen: denn Wer den Kampf nicht geteilt hat Der wird teilen die Niederlage. Nicht einmal den Kampf vermeidet Wer den Kampf vermeiden will: denn Es wird kämpfen für die Sache des Feinds Wer für seine eigene Sache nicht gekämpft hat.
Translation :
Whoever stays at home when the fight begins and lets others fight for his cause must beware: For whoever has not shared the fight will share the defeat. Not even avoiding the fight helps anymore, because he who has not fought (for his own cause) has fought for the cause of the enemy.
Italics added by me
How do you vote against capitalism?
This right here.
Thank you for also making this point. There's a lot of with to do. In-person protests, education and outreach, mutual aid and are some of the necessary avenues. Not everyone is able to march but there are many other ways to contribute to the fight.
Yeah, well, they've done it, 95 million Americans didn't vote. Now what?
Y'all really are unble to take any kind of accountability whatsoever. "It's done so it's not relevant anymore" is a textbook example of what abusers say.
Are we gonna point the finger at them, lay the blame at their feet
Yes, absolutely. Non-voters are neglectful assholes whose inaction has had devastating impacts for multiple different countries. You are all just typical abusers trying to escape accountability.
Love that you assume I'm a non-voter, when nowhere in my comment implies that. You didn't even read it, or my replies to the OP (who actually made good points btw, unlike you). But sure, whatever helps you feel better right now.
You are all just typical abusers trying to escape accountability.
This is such an insulting statement to people who actually go through abusive systems that I can't even fathom why you would write this. No one who is in activism and mutual aid spaces would say this with a straight face.
Depends on the severity of the single issue @plastic_ramses. Was slavery a 'single issue'? is genocide? Are they just 'single issues' like school vouchers and saving the spotted owl?
No they are not. I dont understand why you cant see that. Its not complicated.
Your whole argument is designed to excuse yourself from any critical thought and allow your leaders to shackle you to any outcome they please. And maybe thats all you're good for, frankly.
My critical thinking led me to vote for the dems because i didn't want to make things for my sister, who is transfem.
My critical thinking led me to vote for the dems because i didn't want to make things worse for my immigrant coworkers in the service industry.
My critical thinking led to me knowing without a shadow of a doubt that the republicans would target people who aren't me, a cishet white male, and make things worse for them.
Im curious as to where your critical thinking led you, but we sort of already know that it.
It led you to make the world unequivocally worse.
My critical thinking led me to vote for the dems because i didn’t want to make things for my sister, who is transfem.
And whats exactly at stake for them? What rights of theirs can possibly compare to so many deaths? Would a handfull of their health care coverages become more problematic? unable to visit their loved ones in the hospital as a spouse? unable to file married filing jointly on their taxes? Pronouns not honored while working for a federal employer?
Tell me the top couple list of dangers so we can weigh that against our funding a genocide + the dems cozying up to the rich only while ignoring the lower and middle class. Let us all judge if you are measuring equitably for all humanity or else just looking out for your own pet interests. Lets see you prove yourself.
Are you fucking serious? They want to "eliminate" trans people. You do realize that the end goal here is death, right?
Voting (and in any other way participating) in an oppressive system (E: and for an oppressive party, either way) is literally the opposite of protesting it.
Welcome to the point lmao
MLK: Moderates might be literally worse than the KKK
Libs: Yeah but have you considered that you're racist if you don't vote for someone actively trying to make your life worse
Without fucking fail.
And all with an overinflated and unearned sense of self righteousness to replace the deep sense of irony, and shame, they should be feeling.
It's weird how these comments seem to have far more points than others (like 2x), while it seems like every reply disagrees with them. Like the comment you replied to currently has 25 points and yours has 11.
Huh. Curious.
with an overinflated and unearned sense of self righteousness
This describes every single one of the non-voters and protest voters I've interacted with perfectly.
ETA: triggered a few
Maybe if they didn't run such a shitty campaign, ignore the genocide, have Bill Clinton campaign them, and ignore the concerns of the majority, then more non-voters would've voted for them? If you think protests voters did more to make them lose than their shitty campaign, you need to get that blue boot out of your mouth.
Case in point, my guy.
Cry harder lib. "I know you are but what am I" 💀 my kindergarten age brother wants his insult back.
Who the fuck are you? And how many repeated blows with mining equipment did your skull receive in order for that to be your takeaway?
Oh wow, so out comes the ableism. I'm not a miner but the vitriol shown in this comment against a class of laborer that is routinely disabled by their work is additionally nice.
Scratch a liberal, a fascist bleeds. You're really not beating the allegations with this one dog.
Oh wow, so out comes the ableism
Dude as a turd but stretch before you reach or you'll pull something
Oh, I'm so sorry! I didn't realize! Your diagnosis must've come as a real shock.
Enjoy your wooden blocks and training wheels! There's a whole big world out there for ya kiddo!
Ahh so much unity and cooperation with your approach, no wonder America is fucked.
I'm supposed to feel unity with idiots that can't read and hurl insults? Fuck off with that "high road" shit.
Refusing to use one's voice strategically to prevent increased suffering is an example of cooperating with evil.
Supporting what was an active genocide for some vague possibility of fighting against genocide 4 years from now is an example of cooperating with evil. Harris was explicit in stating that her unconditional support of far right Israeli leaders would continue.
Harris refusing to admit that what Biden was doing was genocide when her internal polling showed her it would cost her the race was also an example of cooperating with evil. Dont deny her her agency. Is she a leader and an adult or is she not. Pick one. Stop blaming the voters for centrists shitting the bed in so many ways and thereby losing this election. Own your mess. Representitives are supposed to represent the will of the people, not demand that it be the other way around while supporting far rightwing war crimes in an ostensibly left leaning party, for effs sake.
Supporting what was an active genocide for some vague possibility of fighting against genocide 4 years from now is an example of cooperating with evil.
If the only thing that you're doing politically is voting and are only doing it in presidential elections, you are part of what you is into this situation in the first place. Local elections, initiatives, primary elections, non-profits, mutual aid orgs, etc also need attention. Voting in EVERY election is the lowest threshold for actually impacting anything in an electoral system. It's why the far-Right was able to get nazis into school boards.
Dont deny her her agency. Is she a leader and an adult or is she not. Pick one.
False dichotomy and premise there. She was an elected official and party of a party that was subverted by neoliberals who put in the effort to do so. As a part of a party that represents capital and the status quo, she was never going to go against Israel. Withholding votes to "force" her in the general election was not based upon any logical strategy to reduce harms and try to end the beneficial. It was nothing more than a performative action to pretend to have moral high ground while giving implicit support to a Nazi that is now ramping up the genocide in Gaza, the West Bank, and starting new ones in the US with trans erasure from government documents already well underway.
Own your mess.
Take your own advice and accept responsibility for doing your part.
If the only thing that you’re doing politically is voting and are only doing it in presidential elections,
thats a big if. Are you talking to yourself? comes down to just strawmnanning. Got any other what ifs you want to waste our time on? Maybe "what if aliens landed?"
False dichotomy and premise there.
I think you're the one with the false premise. You say its illogical to try to pressure a neolib and that a neolib cant be forced to take another side, So she cant be forced to represent all of the democrats is what you are saying--admitting she shouldnt be the leader of all the democrats. Well done! I think a party leader should consider support of all the constituents of the party in order to win. Thats the effin job, not to just lead the neolibs, but to lead the whole party and win an election against another party. The neolibs arent the whoke party, do you understand that?
You amply demonstrate the attitude that led to the dems loss. Neolibs insiode the democratic party exist within a party coalition. Its way past time they learned that. Their failure to understand that cost us all an election. This is why neolibs and centrists should never be allowed to lead. They are purely reactive and directionless.
There is nothing "strategic" about unconditionally voting for the Democratic party.
There is, to those whose strategy is to give themselves a pat on the back for doing the barest of bare minimum and successfully maintaining the status quo, rather than doing anything actually useful to oppose fascism (or the capitalism that will always decay in to it), or in the words of MLK himself those "more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice" - it gives them a dopamine hit and an ego boost so potent they seem able to ride on the smell of their own farts for 4 years at a time while doing fuck all else to change society for the better (for anyone but themselves, that is) because they've already "done their part", and is seemingly all they need to convince themsleves they're the brave hero-saviours of humanity, rather than the enablers of fascism they actually are.
It's precisely why the second cult exists - to provide an illusion of choice (E: and of impact), and make "the left" (I can't even type that without cracking up, but part of the cult is being convinced they are "the left") feel like they're fighting the establishment, when in reality, they're holding it up just as much as the other cult is, some might argue, even more, because they'll turn on those actually opposing fascism long before they'll dare be rude to fascists.
There absolutely is, whether privileged non-voters and anti-electoralists perceive it or not. Enabling fascists to take over literally is making life worse for everyone. Voting for non-fascists and putting in work outside of the general election to try to push the party left is how strategic voting works, or would work if those claiming to care about ending genocide and improving the human condition were actually serious about doing anything but circle-jerking about how morally superior they are for enabling expansion of the genocide in Palestine and the one against LGBTQ+ people in the US that's now kicking off.
You don't even want them!!! You're using an idealized version of them, that does not exist to convince me that anything else is "enabling fascism". They're capitalists!! They don't give a fuck about you if you do not serve their bottom line. Your unconditional vote only serves to legitimize them and prevent any other parties from gaining legitimacy, you cannot singlehandedly win them the election if they are not doing the work to earn the people's vote!!!
You have the privilege of not recognizing that. You belong to a class that still serves their capital interests of nominally appearing progressive but acting fucking incompetent and feckless when they are in a position to do anything to materially improve the lives of the vast majority of americans, somehow convincing the public that our "democracy" is anything other than a sham. You have the privilege of the identity politics, that they drive between us like a wedge and only pretend to care about, that they actively damage by divorcing them from their real material basis, that distract from very real issues which the establishment parties don't even bother pretending to give you a choice on anymore, being your single fucking issue.
The Democrats will not be pushed left, they fucking despise the left and take every opportunity they get to destroy and delegitimize leftist movements. Look at any of their actions this election!! Actually listen to them when they talk!! When the Republicans attack them for being too left, for defending trans people, for defending immigrants, look at how they crumble and fall back instead of defending their positions. Look at how they let the Republicans look like anti-war candidates. It would be so easy to disprove any republican talking point, if the Democrats actually believed in anything other than putting on a show for their donors. They let the Republicans define what the acceptable positions are, and you let them get away with it because of imaginary "moderate" voters that this election should have proved do not exist without a single person defending left wing positions nationally and driving the less engaged voters away from the right.
Who is defending the homeless, the imprisoned, the food insecure, the migrants, the minimum wage workers, the invisible victims of natural disasters, the people at the fucking mercy of the healthcare industry???? Our planet?!?! Not to mention the people our tax dollars are murdering on the other side of the planet!! I could go on!!!! You let your party turn their backs on them for fucking identity politics, because you are privileged enough to avoid coming to terms with the fact we've already lost any sense of electoral democracy on the issues that actually stand to improve the human condition!!! You only care about what personally affects and is visible to you.
The Democrats are not a tool for the left, they are not a weapon against the right, they are the left wing of the very capitalist establishment that got us here in the first place and they are nothing but an obstacle to clear on the way to forming a legitimate populist left wing movement in this country.
You don't even want them!!!
You're damn right. But neolib shitheads are still better than literal fascists and cause less harm in a given period of time.
Literally the only reason that we have been seeing regression for half a century is apathy and my fellow leftist fooling themselves into believing that which is not reflected in statistical data, with religious fervor. Refusing to use every tool available and instead going straight to "let's try to force a violent revolution" is both self-sabotage and betrayal of the working class and vulnerable groups. No workers' revolution has any chance without popular support and increasing the harm experienced by the working class and vulnerable groups in hopes of forcing it is using them as involuntary human sacrifices for something that has never been shown to work in recorded human history. Generally, it just leads to increased levels of oppression.
Who is defending the homeless, the imprisoned, the food insecure, the migrants, the minimum wage workers, the invisible victims of natural disasters, the people at the fucking mercy of the healthcare industry????
Not the people who chose inaction, that's for sure.
Our planet?!?!
Also, not the people who enabled a fascist closely aligned with the UAE and Saudis, that was quoted before the election "Drill, baby, drill!". And I've not heard a peep about monkeywrenching or other effective direct action since the 90s, which tells me that non-voting environmentalists are talking the talk but not walking the walk.
Not to mention the people our tax dollars are murdering on the other side of the planet!!
Who decides (under the US Constitution) where tax dollars get spent? The US Congress. No Leftist change in government fiscal policy is likely to occur without Leftists in government positions. As it is a FPTP system, the only way for Leftists to get into elected office is by taking over an established party by winning down ballot elections (something that the grifting Greens never try for).
I could go on!!!!
You very much could. The Democratic party is a party of and for wealthy neolibs.
You let your party
Not my party, I'm ideologically an anarcho-syndicalist and no elected party in the history of this country has come close to representing me. They are, however, the only one not openly fascist/theofascist.
turn their backs on them for fucking identity politics, because you are privileged enough to avoid coming to terms with the fact we've already lost any sense of electoral democracy on the issues that actually stand to improve the human condition!!!
Fuck yeah, I'm privileged as fuck. I'm a cis-het white male that was raised in a middle-class family that practiced protestant Christianity and had early exposure to computers before they were a big deal. Sure, I'm fucked in other ways, like really childhood trauma, but the only way that I could have been more privileged in the birth lottery would have been to be born in a higher socioeconomic segment.
The reason, according to the data and statistics, that we have lost any sense of electoral democracy on the issues that actually stand to improve the human condition (I agree that that is, in fact, where we've been for at least a decade) is because of voter apathy and non-voting. In a system where the will of the populace is communicated through voting, not voting is accepting whatever the reliable voters (right-wing authoritarians) decide. It is offering no resistance or effort to defend those who are in precarious socioeconomic situations.
You only care about what personally affects and is visible to you.
Quite the contrary (and actually something that I have worked with my therapist on coping with as my neuro-spiciness amplifies my perception of and mental load taken by things that are unjust, and I have historically valued others' well-being above my own). I care a lot, which has led to mental health issues and challenges in my life. Those that I care about most and owe my allegiance to are the underprivileged and regular working class people (those who suffer most in social infrastructure collapse and war - the deaths of starvation and preventable disease that are usually invisible to these championing violent revolution).
The Democrats are not a tool for the left, they are not a weapon against the right, they are the left wing of the very capitalist establishment that got us here in the first place and they are nothing but an obstacle to clear on the way to forming a legitimate populist left wing movement in this country.
You're damn right about that to. But, there are more of us than there are of them. All it would have taken was engagement of leftists in the electoral process, taking over the party over time, and forcing it to represent the people. Instead, they have decided to mostly sit out every election in my lifetime, doing nothing to force lasting change in the established order and capitulating the vote again and again to the Right.
Hell, they couldn't even be bothered to show up down ballot for things like banning forced labor in California. How can one claim to want to build a better world while implicitly supporting human slavery and hoping for people to suffer and die the unnecessary deaths caused to non-combatants in every war? Anti-electoralism/accelerationism as a tool for the Left is bunk, it's only ever, by available data, helped the Right.
I understand what you're saying. Yes, Democrats aren't even close to the ideal, but putting pressure on the wound is still better than tearing it open so to speak. "It's not about waiting for the bus that'll take you straight to your destination, which will never come. It's about taking different buses that take you closer to your destination."
The problem though is that there is no bus coming for us. We're standing in the freezing cold waiting for a bus that is promised to us by people that can ride a luxury coach to a warm paradise whenever they want, who have no intention of sending a bus to us because they don't want to share their warm paradise with everyone (it wouldn't be "theirs" if everyone gets to enjoy it.) Whatever bus they do send us takes us to another freezing cold bus stop, some maybe closer to the warm paradise than others, but they're still all freezing cold. The only way we'll get there is if we grind their coaches to a halt, no matter how many bodies it takes throwing at them to jam up the wheels, getting on that bus, taking the wheel by any means necessary, and only THEN do we even have a bus to get anywhere. But relying on their blue coloured bus to be against the red coloured bus that both go nowhere is what a defense for Democrats look like. We'd really be better off figuring out how to stop the luxury coaches so we can start shuttling everyone bit by bit, most people don't even acknowledge the luxury coaches even exist.
Yes, Democrats aren't even close to the ideal, but putting pressure on the wound is still better than tearing it open so to speak.
This is exactly my thesis on strategic voting. Though, I'd put it as closer to a tourniquet. It stops the bleeding and is life-saving but does not prevent life-changing consequences, like potentially losing a limb in this metaphor. Non-voting/apathy is like just letting it bleed and hoping to survive or at least have an easy death. Anti-electoralism/accelerationism is like not just doing that but also trying to convince others to use up the tourniquet material so that noone has a choice but to bleed out and/or hope that the pile of corpses is placed in the right place to stop the fancy bus.
It fundamentally violates individual agency and uses people as involuntary human sacrifices on, at best, a gamble.
"It's not about waiting for the bus that'll take you straight to your destination, which will never come. It's about taking different buses that take you closer to your destination."
And that's a problem. Voting is not the only necessary tool that has been needed. It can, with enough organization and engagement, be very powerful though. It's also necessary for people to chat with and get positions as the "bus drivers" in order to coax the buses to more friendly destinations. But, that's not possible without support and the organized far-Left in the West (I'd say that I'm part of the "disorganized" far-Left, both because of my anarchic ideals and AuADHD) has pretty much universally rejected any approach involving subverting the existing tools of power and instead taking the same approach as homeopathic "medicine", using strategies without evidence of efficacy that rely ultimately on violence, suffering, and destruction, rather than building.
Part of that is understandable as there's a long history of inflitration of intentional communities and other collaborative efforts, as well assassinations (ex. MLK Jr.). Revolution and positive societal change, however, takes a lot more than just burning things down to actually improve the human condition. A society built on a thirst for blood and vengeance will, as has been seen repeatedly in history, lend itself to instability, vulnerability to hostile influence, internal and external, as well as, you know, the whole mass murder of those that buy into the "correct" philosophy.
An aside: I do, in "conspiracy-theory mode", suspect that polarizing the Left towards anti-electoralism/accelerationism, both removing them, voluntarily, from the reigns of power and making them unwitting allies is at least an idea that is amplified by the authoritarian Right but anything more than that runs into the wall of plausibility.
The only way we'll get there is if we grind their coaches to a halt, no matter how many bodies it takes throwing at them to jam up the wheels
And that's part of my problem with accelerationism (beyond the lack of evidence of efficacy in doing anything more than increase human suffering). It is ultimately engaging in exactly the same strategies that the existing bourgeoisie employ to maintain and expand their power. Namely, treating the poor and vulnerable as expendable tools to achieve their desired end. It's like the widely memed quote from Shrek "Some of you are going to die but that is a sacrifice that I am willing to make."
But relying on their blue coloured bus to be against the red coloured bus that both go nowhere is what a defense for Democrats look like. We'd really be better off figuring out how to stop the luxury coaches so we can start shuttling everyone bit by bit, most people don't even acknowledge the luxury coaches even exist.
Yup. That's why it's necessary to invest the time, effort, and energy into turning the bus that doesn't intend to just run over people for fun into one that actually benefits humanity. It sucks that it requires patience and long-term, multigenerational work but, that's how making lasting change works and why the far-Right is constantly trying to destroy education and support systems to reduce the people's ability to have the energy to think critically or affect positive change.
Jesus christ, I wish I had access to the military grade copium you are on right now.
Hey idk, maybe if half the energy that was spent blaming and shaming voters; into using their only legal collective bargaining power to endorse a party that they don't actually want, that doesn't even pretend to work in their interest or that of broader humanity, that is currently voting away your rights right alongside republicans, and fucking lost the election anyways; was instead spent on building up an actually functioning independent left wing party, movement, or undercurrent; on building up independent aid networks and leftist coalitions; the situation would be different.
Maybe if instead of running defense for genocide and complicity, we showed the people that alternative forms of engagement that are actually rewarding, do exist, and build up enough power to stand up for ourselves and show the left wing of the capitalist class that actual action is necessary if they want to keep up their charade; or to take their place when the people see the charade for what it is; we would have won some concessions and actually improved people's lives instead of the best we can collectively hope for being that they don't get worse.
You are correct. We are not out numbered, we are out organized. Spending your time pushing anti democratic propaganda in promotion of the Democratic party is not going to magically organize the working class or make the Democrats less right wing.
No, but be my guest, go and work with the Democrats and see where that gets you. You're definitely the first leftist ever in history to have thought of using the supposed left wing party as an actual left wing party and definitely aren't going to be spit out and blacklisted by the party, which is completely captured by the capitalist class, as soon as it tastes any hint of legitimate anti-establishment or anti-capitalist sentiment. The powers that be just have zero mechanism of maintaining their dominance over the ruling class, and this is really how the Democratic party just organically formed on its own with zero influence by capital. It's just human nature that the people in power in a democracy where anyone, including leftists, can supposedly wield power, would just stop using that power to materially improve people's lives even in order to get elected! I've never spoken to actual leftists organizers who have successfully accomplished anything or read a fucking book written by one in my life, and I can't possibly see what could go wrong, because my political engagement begins and ends at the ballot box and complaining about how other people use their democratic rights on online forums. /s
If the democrats want to shoot their own party in the foot by all but abandoning populist rhetoric, fucking let them. Use the opportunity of the biggest threat to leftist organization and revolutionary optimism, finally stumbling over their own incompetence and contradictory interests, to build up and defend a party that will actually stand for your rights.
Found the person who didnt use all available options of protest.
So youre saying that the neolibs that didnt vote 'uncomitted' in the primary are to blame here, thats a good point plastic_ramses.
You don’t understand I can do more good by withholding my vote and standing outside with my witty sign (for a few hours).
Yes because so much is earned in this country by sitting around and waiting for politicians to do the right thing.
Its best to let the politicians make it worse then i guess.
Stop putting your faith in politicians. We have so much collective power outside of that.