Man who burned Quran 'shot dead in Sweden'
Man who burned Quran 'shot dead in Sweden'
www.bbc.com Man who burned Quran 'shot dead in Sweden'
Salwan Momika, 38, is reported to have been killed in an apartment in Södertälje, Stockholm.
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26 comments
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Religious extremists are a disease on society. It's a form of insanity that promote extreme irrational and harmful behavior.
Salwan Momika was absolutely right to be against it and warn against it. No one was hurt by the Quran burnings, and it can never be justified to harm anyone because of it. It can be argued to be distasteful though. But by that logic they should also kill everybody selling hot dogs at a hot dog stand.Extreme Islamism has no place in EU or any proper democracy.
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All Abrahamic faiths. Its an embarrassment that secular society still allows this Iron Age junk a seat at the table.
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Absolutely, and above I forgot the worst part, religion promotes immoral behavior, while claiming the opposite.
All based on thousands of years old fallacies. Religions are based on delusions and not reality.
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Plenty of people were hurt by the Koran burnings!
Hundreds have been injured in riots directly caused by the these provocateurs, and completely innocent people have been killed by terrorists because of them. 1)
It has also resulted in freedom of speech restrictions, a more polarized society, and less constructive dialogue about Islam.
Wrapping the Koran in bacon and setting it on fire was never meaningful criticism of religion, it was meant to incite violence. And it did!
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caused by the these provocateurs,
This is a 100% false statement, the people burning the Quran did NOT start the riots, the Muslims did.
completely innocent people have been killed by terrorists because of them.
This is complete bullshit, violence in Sweden has escalated dramatically because of Muslim dominated gangs, people that come from the middle east with little respect for the democracy that allowed them in. We see similar things in other European countries, but it's worse in Sweden than anywhere else, and Sweden is the country that has taken the most emigrants from Islamic countries.
Why are there so many emigrants from Islamic countries? Most of them are even Muslims, but still they can't live safely in their home country?Wrapping the Koran in bacon and setting it on fire was never meaningful criticism of religion
I agree it's a provocation, and Muslims were stupid enough to act violently to a non violent provocation. Confirming the worst prejudices against them. Actually making the act a meaningful demonstration of how sick Islam is.
Extreme Muslims simply can't help themselves, they feel called to "protect" Islam with violence, even when what they do is harming themselves.
But just as bad, moderate Muslims fail to condemn it, thereby silently accept the violent behavior and escalation by extreme Muslims.
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I agree that religion extremism is trash but your comparison is as dog water. Try doing the same type of thing to a Torah or a bible; watch what happens. You cannot compare one subject to another
There are extremist for every religion and you are just nitpicking. If someone is openly instigating then they will obviously face the consequence from the zealot.
Don’t spread shitty logic like that; it’s a deterrent to a open minded logic
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you are just nitpicking
No I'm not, there is a difference, Islam fosters more extremists, Islam does not condone secular government. The Bible and Torah are bad too, but there are degrees, and there's a reason more Christian countries don't have death penalty than for any other religion.
But mostly it's the culture of Muslim countries that is backwards. It's not religion alone, but the culture and religion go hand in hand.
There can be zero doubt that Islam and Muslims foster way more extremists than other religions, when just burning a book can get you killed. Even in a democratic non Muslim country, What more evidence do you need?
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Again nitpicking;
You are looking at the extreme ends of Muslim / Islam countries
There are “democratic” countries that are not as extreme like Malaysia and Brunei or even Indonesia.
Edited : out Singapore; see reply below for correction.
To me it seems like you are just looking at Iran/Iraq and such when you mention that religion so it will most definitely look like that. I do agree at its current stage Islam is fostering a lot of extremist beliefs but there have been period with different leaders where things looked way progressive comparatively.
You cannot judge something that is almost immemorial from a single point of view as they all go through periods of change.
From my understanding in a world with 3 theocratic religion it has always been Judaism and Christianity vs Islam so of course you only hear and see bad and never the good when the overall big picture is messed up.
I personally am in favor of destruction of all religion but I also understand why they exist.
I am stating it again, try doing those same action in a state with a lot of Zionist believers or orthodox Christian’s and see what happens. I am not asking you to change your view but rather see it from an open prospective if you are going to try defending any religion at all.
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The main religion in Singapore is Buddhism, second is no affiliation, third Christianity. And down at fourth with 15% you have Islam!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore
So you have one anecdotal example with Brunei.And I can counter with Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Egypt, Jordan, Yemen, Somalia.
Where AFAIK all these countries have problems with for instance so called honor killings. And death penalty for insulting the false prophet.
As I mentioned it's the culture and religion, but in extreme Islamic countries, the religion is preventing the cultures to progress.
And of course there are places that are worse than others, maybe Brunei is not so bad, I don't know much about that country.But if you look at Muslim countries they are only the 37th most muslim country:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_countryAll the bad ones have way higher ratio of Muslims.
But I've mentioned before, that not ALL Muslims are bad. But it remains the main force for promoting religious extremism and fanaticism. And it's rare to see Muslims complain when other Muslims do horrendous acts, like killing for expressing your opinion by burning a book. And things that should be a complete non issue like the Mohammad drawings:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy
Or Salman Rushdie for writing a book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_Rushdie
People who were threatened on their life by fucking official MUSLIM GOVERNMENTS!! With Iran even offering a high reward for the death of Salman Rushdie.
How can you compare this to anything done in the name of Christianity today?I personally am in favor of destruction of all religion but I also understand why they exist.
That we can agree on, religion in general is detrimental to both individuals and society. And they exist because of ignorance to explain common phenomena that weren't understood in ancient times, and still aren't today by a very large share of the global population.
Still there are differences as to how harmful each religion is.
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I wrote my reply help asleep but I was thinking about Malaysia; apologies on that part but if you require a list of countries
Morocco Tunisia Malaysia Indonesia UAE ( they’ve since removed / limited a lot of their sharia based law ) Kazakhstan Lebanon Bosnia and Herzegovina
The mention of “false prophet” is subjective so I won’t get into that. If you go to Israel and question the “messiah” I’m sure you’re bound to get similar results
It is at the end of the day all about leadership and as of this moment the leaders are regressive in those Muslim countries you listed but that is changing and will continue to change with time; maybe not for the kingdoms
As for Muslims not giving opinion of the subject of others committing heinous crimes in the name of Islam, that’s untrue as I’ve seen here in NY a lot of disgust and condemnation of those extremism.
Is it not the Christians in America that are moving the democratic sovereignty to a theocratic one?
The biggest threat to America today is not communism. It’s moving America toward a fascist theocracy. Everything that’s happened under the Reagan Administration is steering us right down that pipe.
- Frank Zappa
Let us work towards a future where religion plays a background subject.
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he mention of “false prophet” is subjective
No that's what the evidence or rather lack thereof say, so it's as factual as it gets. You can't claim belief as fact. And there is no evidence to support any claim that he is an actual prophet, so Occam's razor suggests that he is not. Also the more fantastic the claims, the more need there is for evidence.
Let us work towards a future where religion plays a background subject.
Absolutely.
If there were more coffee in the world, people would drink more coffee.
Also Frank Zappa. 😋He was an amazing guy. And he was 100% right about Reagan as I see it, the direction of USA since is now a proven fact.
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I mean this guy was basically going into the hood and screaming at the top of his lungs "get fucked ni**ers". It was gonna happen eventually, so I'm listing this under "suicide by ethnic minority".
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I’m listing this under “suicide by ethnic minority
That's complete bullshit, first there is no equivalent to the N word for Muslims, second the N word is a racial thing you can't change. being a Muslim is a superstition you should get rid of.
You are making false equivalences, and use it to apologize for murder because of religious fanaticism.Even if the equivalence was accurate, it's not an excuse for killing people. I'm shocked such a moronic post has upvotes!?!?!
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That's complete bullshit, first there is no equivalent to the N word for Muslims,
There's no equivalent for the N word for Muslims, yeah, but there are ways to offend Muslims as a whole to a similar level, and staging public Quran burnings in front of a mosque to actively provoke Muslims is one of those. Trying to get the Quran banned in Sweden also didn't do him any favors.
Even if the equivalence was accurate, it's not an excuse for killing people.
It's not about being an excuse or not; I'm not trying to excuse the murder here. However, if for example I, an Egyptian Muslim, staged multiple public Bible burning in a major church in a Christian neighborhood in Cairo and kept actively provoking Christians I wouldn't expect to get away with it; I'd be basically screaming "yes baby lynch me". That's what I'm talking about here. This is an act meant to, and bound to, really piss people off and there were always going to be people radical enough to think "I should do something about this", and out of those there were always going to be people who actually did something about it. This murder was a statistical certainty; this is the same principle behind stochastic terrorism.
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Wow you are really choosing to double down on this?
Amazing!!if for example I, an Egyptian Muslim, staged multiple public Bible burning in a major church in a Christian neighborhood in Cairo and kept actively provoking Christians I wouldn’t expect to get away with it;
False equivalence, Egypt and Sweden is not the same culture. In EU we have a thing called freedom of speech. And death penalty is illegal in EU.
Here Egypt is considered extremely backwards. And I can guarantee that if you burn Bibles in Sweden, Christians won't kill you for it.
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False equivalence, Egypt and Sweden is not the same culture. In EU we have a thing called freedom of speech. And death penalty is illegal in EU.
I never said anything about the law here. You only need one person to not care about these things to get something like the OP.
And I can guarantee that if you burn Bibles in Sweden, Christians won't kill you for it.
Uh... You sure? It seems you only need to not be white to run into racism and be at risk of being victim to a hate crime. With that in mind it seems that I, a very much not white Egyptian went to Sweden did anything as provocative as burning the Bible and advocating for its banning it seems I'd have real reason to fear for my safety. Because again, y'all apparently have people who will target ethnic and religious minorities for simply existing.
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I never said anything about the law here.
It's an expression of wildly different mindsets of the 2 countries.
Uh… You sure?
Yes I'm sure, as sure as you can be about anything in general. Of course racism exist, but it's not something people are killed over. While for many Muslims it's perfectly legitimate to kill people for no other reason than disagreeing with the Quran, you don't find a similar attitude among Christians atheists or Jews. Islam is the worst religion regarding fostering extremism and fanatics.
Which your original response to my post, was merely one example of.
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you don't find similar attitude among Christians atheists or Jews
This is just a load of bullshit. Christian hate groups definitely exist and if I burned a Bible in rural Alabama, Missisippi, latin America, Russia, and eastern eruope a mob would finish me. The country with the largest irreligious population is the home of the CCP. The government actively putting Muslims in "reeducation camps". Let's ask a Palestinian about Jewish attitudes about burning a Torah?
And try not fall of your high horse as Sweden slides into far right politics like the rest of Europe. You literally have neo nazi terrorists running around Sweden NOW and your talking point of the Quran being so evil sound very similar to theirs
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Again you are making a false equivalence.
Russia is not a democracy, and USA has death penalty and also another mindset than EU.When I wrote Christians wouldn't do that, it was clearly Christians in SWEDEN. And I bet the same would be the case throughout EU.
To quote myself:
And I can guarantee that if you burn Bibles in SWEDEN, Christians won’t kill you for it.
But of course if you burn a Quran anywhere in the world, fanatic Muslims all over the world will make an issue of it.
The country with the largest irreligious population is the home of the CCP.
https://www.acronymfinder.com/CCP.html
If you mean China has an atheist government, why don't you just write that? CCP is an acronym with 314 meanings registered on that page.
The reason China does this has nothing to do with being atheist, but everything to do with having a totalitarian government, governed by an ideology that is also capable of feeding fanaticism. But you should take note that these extreme measures are against Muslims ONLY. Why do you think that is?
Islam feeds fanaticism in the world more than any other religion, because Islam has not evolved according to modern moral standards like mainstream Christianity has. Islam claims to be pro science (new knowledge), but in fact it's probably the most anti science and knowledge religion there is.
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Of course racism exist, but it's not something people are killed over.
Uh... I don't think so. I found these by looking up "racially motivated homicide Sweden", and I imagine you'll get many more results if you search in Swedish. And these are people who simply... existed. If an immigrant did anything as inflammatory as publicly burning the Bible and calling for its ban they'd be eaten alive by the far right. I don't know what liberal utopia where everyone tolerates free speech you're talking about here is, but Sweden ain't it. Not with these guys as the second largest party in your parliament. Also if you're still not satisfied with the Bible comparison, you can make it the Swedish flag or whatever else you like. If you think far right media wouldn't latch onto that like flies then I don't know what to say.
While for many Muslims it's perfectly legitimate to kill people for no other reason than disagreeing with the Quran, you don't find a similar attitude among Christians atheists or Jews.
You're repeatedly missing the point, and at this point I'm starting to think it's intentional. The message of "fuck your beliefs and fuck you", delivered from the target group's backyard (in front of the Stockholm mosque in this case) is a lot more provocative and inflammatory than just "disagreeing with the Quran".
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racially motivated homicide Sweden
That's anecdotal, but unfortunately there are crazy people everywhere. This guy killed people who had done absolutely no offense to him, and is probably literally insane. And I agree it's wrong, and I think everybody normal would also agree it's wrong.
But the terrorism of Islam is systemic. And the REAL difference is that Muslims widely accept the killings, and make excuses for people killing in the name of Islam, and even call it justified. Exactly like you were at the beginning of this small debate, putting the blame on the victim for expressing his democratic rights according to the country he was in.a lot more provocative and inflammatory than just “disagreeing with the Quran”.
Okay STRONGLY disagreeing then. But burning a Quran is nothing more than disagreeing, it's not punishable by death to be provocative in a country with free expression and free speech.
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26 comments