Money well spent

Enjoy applying for entry level positions that require 3-5 years of experience.
- And that 3-5 years experience is needed in technology that came out 1.5 years ago!
  
  I mentioned to a recruiter once that it wasn’t possible to have “10+ years in Figma” since it only came out in 2015 and that was the last I heard lol.
- I applied for an internship in 2009 and got turned down because I had no experience.
  
  lmao

Ok, it's true college isn't what it used to be.
A college degree used to be rare, meaning you could get any degree and do any job.
Obviously, it's not like that anymore. Everyone has a degree. You need to get a degree that means something.
If you have rich parents that will support you, great, you can fuck around and graduate after 8 years with an English degree, and you'll be alright.
If your parents aren't rich and can't support you indefinitely, you need a degree in something that is hiring or will be hiring when you graduate. Preferably, with a large paycheck, so paying back the loans is reasonable.
Or, ya know, just don't go to college. Learn to weld or install sattelite dishes, or even better, be a general contractor. You can make a goddamn fortune as a general contractor.
Or, do what Mark Twain did, and mary into wealth. Love is fake anyway!
But, ya know, being 18 and impressionable to romantic ideas, it's tempting to think you don't have to follow this guidance and get an art degree and you'll be fine. Don't fall into that. Be smart.
- being 18 and impressionable to romantic ideas, it’s tempting to think you don’t have to follow this guidance and get an art degree and you’ll be fine
  The bigger trap IMO is going into a field you aren't passionate about. I have a computer science degree, my program had many students who didn't really like it but were there for the money. While I'm sure some succeeded a lot of people who were just there for the money failed out, or performed so mediocre that they could only get less desirable jobs, which don't pay as well and are also shit working conditions (which since these folks don't like the career means they tend to burn out super quick).
  There is a compromise to be had, you need to find something that you at least mostly find enjoyable, but has a viable career to go into, their are plenty of arts careers out there that pay alright, and if you specialize into them early instead of pursuing eye in the sky careers then you'll find yourself ahead of the pack. Of course you must also look outside school to see what these careers value (paid coops are a great opportunity if your school has them) I have a few friends with social work degrees who are doing pretty good for instance.
  That said, Tuition is somewhat subsidized where I am (my tuition was 15K USD a year and one of the more expensive schools and programs, an arts degree would be more like 10K USD) so YMMV compared with the USA where I hear tuition can commonly be well over 100K a year.
  
  The bigger trap IMO is going into a field you aren't passionate about.
  I went to an art school for a degree in audio engineering and I encountered seniors in their final year who had no idea what the fuck they were doing because they didn't seek out any opportunities outside of classes. I interned at a recording studio for about two years while I was in school and that prepared me better than any class I took. This is an industry where you need to be passionate about what you're doing because work is rare in the beginning and the pay is pretty shit. There were several kids in my advanced practicums who didn't even know how to properly wrap cables or mount microphones onto stands. I couldn't help but think to myself "why the fuck are you even here". You really have to go out of your way and fight for every opportunity you can get in this industry. I'm fortunate to be able to make a living in it but somehow some of the people I graduated with came out with less knowledge than what I learned in my freshman year.
  It just baffles me that people get degrees in these highly competitive industries without any sort of drive to actually make a career. Interesting to hear that this happens in STEM fields as well.
- That's the thing, some people aren't smart enough to study. Or better said: some people never received the right guidance to know what they're good at.
  
  Agreed.
- Who was Mary?

Going to university means you have a better chance than average at getting a good paying job*, not that you will get one.
*assuming you didn’t degree in some low-pay field or something.
- Two art degrees! Time to sell nudes on Patreons!
  
  I feel like this is about a specific person.
  Unrelated but do you think a pizza flavored cake would taste good?
  
  Start a business of taking HQ nude pics of other artists for their patreons. Now you are using your degrees, making more money, and you get free nudes.

The big difference is the type of job you can get.
If you want to work retail you can make decent money, but you are standing all day, dealing with entitled people and work hours that make it difficult to have a life. If you want a 9-5 better get a degree.
- In what world does retail pay a living wage?
  
  Retail management I assume.
  
  I was making over $60k a year managing a small retail store.
  It isn't too hard to break into management of boutique retail shops, but you are basically a rep who doesn't get overtime and has a few additional responsibilities. A part time job at a big corporation won't be a living wage, but it's possible to make a living in retail.
  The job really sucks though.
- I always wonder what people got their degree in that set the expectation of a high paying job.
  Also some people go to school for 16 years to be donkey smart.
  
  Engineering and CS, IME

- I'm the second one. I've been studying physics for three years and it's hard and I have no idea what kind of job this will lead me to. However nothing else is as facinating to me as physics so I would definitely do it again.
  
  I think many people miss the point of studying. A massive amount of companies/decently positions require you to have a degree, PREFERABLY in a related area but not necessarily. They basically want to make sure you can read, follow instructions etc.
  Of course if you want to work at the CERN you might want to know a thing or too about physics but other than that there is a decent amount of good paying jobs not related to your area that a mind like yours would have no problem in performing.

I don't understand people who go study for a profession that's hard work and low wage, and then complain that it's hard work and low wage.
- A lot of people, myself included, grow up thinking that a person's job is the most important aspect of their life, and often hear the phrase "Do what you love and you'll never work a day if your life." So, they find a job they would like - something that fits with their identity - because that's how the world had been explained to them.
  I spent 8 years working toward my "dream job," and realized I hated it within 6 months of getting my first position in the field. Then I quit, and spent 6 months wallowing on my own self pity for having lost the cornerstone of my identity.
  Once I got back on my feet, I got a boring white collar job in a field I wasn't interested in, rebuilt my identity with things I was actually interested in, and realized that working is just a thing I have to do to survive, not some life calling that's supposed to define who I am as a person.
  
  @RemindMe@programming.dev 5 years
  
  Work to live vs live to work
  Sounds like you've been surrounded by live to work people, the saddest most pathetic people in society (unless they own the actual business they are slaving for, that's a different dynamic)
  
  If you don't mind, what was your "dream job"? It seems incredible that you could study for 8 years in a topic and get no working experience that would indicate that you're going to hate it when you finish.
  I never had a clear idea of a specific dream job, just a field. Now I have such a job I'd say 60-80% is interesting stuff I might do as a hobby (if not doing it at work), with the rest being bureaucratic bullshit most jobs involve.
  It's not super high paying considering the field, but it is often satisfying.
- the real mistake is going to school for the job you want (with exceptions like being a doctor).
  I went to literal clown school, I'm considered top of my game in the corporate world and have been head hunted for my last 3 jobs.
  
  Chad moment
  
  Requested: A clown version of the Critters-posting-on-4chan meme, with a horn on the desk and a red nose put around the screen.
- Mostly they don't, it's assholes telling them they fucked up.

Going to a good university and getting a degree in STEM means you get a good paying job.
- Goes to expensive university and gets a worthless degree
  Surprised when it doesn't pay that well
  I graduated college in 2022 with an electrical engineering degree and $0 in debt as I worked through it.
  
  I applaud you, I really do. You've shown an awareness of the world as it is that many young people don't seem to have; even as they've been inundated with information that might inform them that THIS IS A TRAP!
  I don't fault them, though, because much of that inundation also tells them that if they just 'apply here for $$' they'll be fine and as a kid I know which truth I'd like to believe. My own husband, who is frighteningly bright at all matters other than finance, fell for those same lies.
  The truth is that a parent needs to help their kids navigate the "D&D full of monsters dungeon" to take advantage of the build that makes one successful... and while it can be done it's just 'nightmare difficulty'. If you can play through this, the rest of life gets a hell of a lot easier.
  If you can't, you're gonna have to rely on politicians to 'make things right'. What's the likelihood of that in this day and age?
  @Gingeybook I'd like to posit that you could profit from educating others. Just throwing that out there.
  
  You experiencing the exception to the rule doesn't mean the rule doesn't apply to most everyone else.
  
  We can't all be doctors, lawyers, engineers, and programmers. And if we all got those degrees companies would start lowering their wages because of the increased competition.
  We need people to teach English, manage the environment, contribute to the arts, etc. Makes us a more well-rounded society.
- Partner has a STEM master's degree from a good university. I make the same amount in desktop support with no degree.
  Dad has an MBA. Works on databases for a living.
  Sister has Bachelor's in Industrial Design from a top design school in the US. Has worked for big name industry players. She make more money from her 1 year self-paced coding boot camp.
  Most degrees are worthless these days, and it's high time we start demanding refunds. Cancel student debt. The promises made to us in highschool about career paths were blatantly false. Also, tax billionaires.
- Not even close. Tech jobs in Canada are often only a few dollars an hour more than min wage.
  
  Bollocks, unless min is 30 bucks an hour?
  United States. $110,140.
  Switzerland. $97,518.
  Israel. $71,559.
  Denmark. $63,680.
  Canada. $61,680.
  Norway. $57,013.
  Australia. $55,640.
  United Kingdom. $55,275.
  https://codesubmit.io/blog/software-engineer-salary-by-country/
  
  Tech as in STEM and CS? No possible way engineer gigs of any stripe are that low
  
  Wtf....why? Is there just too many of them?
  
  Yo, if your in tach getting paid this shit, you need to find a new company.

Going to University means you have a chance at a good paying job. Depending on the job, likely a better chance then someone who didnt go. I make decent money and did not go, however I am incredibly lucky and am not betting on that for any children i have. Trades or University/College is a must.
That being said, how about the Government reduces the cost of post-secondary education, instead of allowing banks to earn off billions of school loans each year. Here, they do reduce it for citizens, however not nearly enough. Additionally, many graduates end up moving to other countries because the pay is lower here.
- I'm not from the US, I think I've heard that banks are obligated to give those loans with some characteristics?
  It's going to cost much less if getting a student loan becomes much harder, because universities still need people paying.
  If anybody can get a loan, the cost becomes inflated.
  Just a thought.
  
  The costs HAVE become I flatbed, because everyone can get a loan for a degree, and schools keep raising tuition.

Depends on what you go for.

University is in the end what you make out of it.
Talk to people, make some connections - this is what might end up landing you a job, not necessarily what they teach you or the diploma you might or might not get.
- It also teaches you things like time management and organization and generally how to be an independent adult. Of course, it's not the only way to learn these things, just like it's not the only way to learn math or computer science. But it's holistically a culture which is structured around these things, and is a massively helpful stepping stone for a lot of people.
- But I am introvert. I don't like making connections. Even if I do make connections I never follow up

Your wrong little Billy. It can help in getting you a we'll paying job, it it depends on both your degree and perception.

That's pretty much a question of culture and the field.
In Germany, it's pretty much impossible to get into some jobs without a degree. In others, you get a higher salary for having a degree, to the point where some companies will not take you for a position because your degree makes you too expensive. In the public sector, your highest degree determines your salary scale (and most importantly where it caps out).
Not saying the system is good like that, but it is currently that way, so at the very least here, degree often corresponds to higher salary.
- In Finland when public sector is doing a competitive procurement from the private sector, e.g. an IT project, by law they have to prefer the company with higher educated employees. A lot of talented people in IT don't have degrees, so those people don't get hired to public sector jobs or even to private sector that has public sector as a client.
  All public sector IT projects here have been gigantic, expensive shit shows.

Did you use your time at university to network and make lasting connections with people who will likely be more successful than you? Because that practically guarantees a job. If you kept your head down and did nothing of note except get a diploma, you wasted your time.

- That's so Raven!

I barely scrapped through high school and now 20 odd years later I'm in an office job on a 6 figure salary. One of the lucky ones I guess?
- Good thing your job doesn't require you to be able to spell
  
  No you misunderstand, he attended the school of hard knocks

Yeah, fuck that. I didn't go because I had no interest in sitting in yet more classrooms listening to people drone on and smelling other people's farts for 4 more years

What did you spend your money on?
A degree focusing on intensive career training in a field that is highly demanded, and networking,...
or a "life experience" and a degree in underwater basket weaving?
- I mean I get why people like being edgy about this, but the statistics don't lie. A bachelor's degree on average increases weekly pay by about 50% over an associate degree or trade/apprenticeship. You can absolutely make a good living without a degree, but they are definitely worth the cost for most people.
  
  Yeah editing my comment,y my "success" part just meant following a profitable major

Look if going to college didn't cost four years of time with 20K per year, where in my career you'd be near to outdated (tech), I'd go.
But for tech I feel like its almost a scam. I'd rather have the certs and/or practical knowledge or be able to go through an interview via algorithms, soft skills, explaining how to go through what I know. Its harder work to learn this way but I think it keeps your skills sharper.
- My experience is that the college foundation I got over 20 years ago is still incredibly useful as a developer, architect, and manager.
  That said, the thing you need to learn the most is how to constantly keep up with the changes in technology, and my college at least did an ok job at that.
  Did a shit job helping me get my first job, though.

My only solace is knowing that those same adults that repeated these lies to me as a kid will die starving and poor as I will have nothing to support them with.
- Wow.